6.2 Crank no start

[BadDog]

Well, the C10 has been chugging along happily since my last post about timing, and getting through emissions. Seemed like it was making a nice dependable little driver. Then my daughter shut it down 2 nights ago, and it failed to start the next day. :(

So just got a chance to check it today. First checked to see if the pump solenoid was hot and working. With key on, touch the wire and you get a small park and hear the solenoid open/close. Next checked lift pump flow by cracking the bleed while my daughter turned it over. Got what appeared decent flow with no air.

Next cracked #1 at the injector and turned it over. Not sure what I was expecting, but I expected "more". Fuel sorta dribbled up through the nut collar and after several rotations filled and began dripping over the nut. I was expecting a higher pressure squirt or something. I backed the nut off pretty well, and could feel the tube lose, still no squirt. Hmmm.

I've got filters on hand, so figured what the heck, and replaced the filter. Bled through the top vent, still nothing.


And to be clear, it doesn't even TRY to start. Not so much as a chug or hick-up. Batteries are hot, and it spins fast with no response like a gasser with no coil wire.

It's also got a new controller and new glows, but I'm going to be looking for a test procedure. The glow light in the cluster lights and goes out as it should, so I think they are ok.

So, what does this sound like? Any ideas? Thanks for any advice you can offer...

[BadDog]

Oh, and this is Phoenix, so not cold at all. 63* at the moment, so no fuel gelling or such...

[JohnC]

Don't expect much fuel when you crack the injector lines. The system won't develop pressure when the injector isn't attached and the volume at each injection event is pretty small. Hard to say for sure, but your description sounds normal.

My first guess is glow plugs. If you have fuel and heat, the only thing left is a mechanical failure; timing or compression.

[BadDog]

Thanks, that's pretty much what I thought, but I was still hoping in my ignorance I was overlooking something simple.

Tomorrow (if I can get time) I will manually "hot wire" (jumper past) the glow controller as a test to see if I can get it started. But I thought that if the controller went out, it wouldn't fire the cluster light? If the manual jumper/switch for the controller does not work, I'll check the individual glows, and at the same time check compression. If that doesn't show any answers, not sure where to look next. Sure has been running good to just lay down like this without warning.

[BadDog]

Well, took longer to get to it than expected, holidays and all.

Still can't really find anything wrong. The glow plug controller light works as normal, test light at glow plug shows power on all 8. Resistance is low through plug, so no failed open.

BUT, I jumper across the controller lugs for ~5 seconds, and it lights right up, runs good.

Can a controller go out and test good? I'm assuming it must be too much resistance in the controller? How to confirm, what resistance should it read? Or maybe I'm just holding them on longer than the controller? The light only seems to stay on for about 3 seconds, but that seems in range?

Also, local quality parts house (where I get most of my parts, not AutoZone etc) says they can't even get a controller for it. What is the best source?

[DmaxMaverick]

Yes, the controllers can work, yet not work. Double check your electrical connections and make sure they aren't corroded or loose. The GP lamp is tied into the GP harness, so if it's on, so are they.

A new controller will run you about $80 or more, once you find one. A manual replacement will cost about $30, and is darn near idiot proof (depends on the idiot). All you need is a Ford starter relay (any one, new or used), a push button or toggle switch (spring loaded to open), and some wires and connectors. Push the button and they glow, the timer is your finger. Done.

If you have AC60G plugs, it'll need 12-15 seconds, or 5-6 seconds for quick heats, but the end result is the same.

[BadDog]

That's weird. I posted a reply late last night, and now it's gone.

Summary that I recall, I'm wondering if part of the problem is short duration on the heat. The controller seems to be cycling at a bit over 3 seconds (didn't actually stop watch), but I was counting 5 seconds when manual heating.

Also, I have already ordered a Delco controller for $90. For me, I would just do the FoMoCo relay, but my daughter drives that truck, and while she's a good driver, that's the type of thing that might cause problems. So I'll take my chances with a bolt in auto controller this time, and rewire (and retrain) for more robust relay if it goes out again.

Got to go get the controller now, I'll update to confirm or deny it as the fix...

[DmaxMaverick]

We apologize for the lost post. I think I replied to it, and it's gone, too. Please read the thread in the "Updates and Announcements" forum, at the top of the forum home page. Some extensive forum maintenance was in progress at the time, and warning of possible lost posts was given.

About the problem........
3 seconds is too short, for any brand plug, and 5 seconds in the winter is marginal for the fastest quick heat type plug. 9G plugs (original for your rig) were about as fast as any OEM type plug, but came with problems of their own (swelling tips, getting stuck in the head when they fail). If you have 9G's, replace them ASAP. I hope it isn't too late. The problem could also be the GP inhibit circuit, which can be caused by a bad temp switch. Disconnect it, and it should trigger the controller to act like it's really cold, and extend the glow times to max. If it doesn't help, then the controller is bad.

[BadDog]

No worries, shhhtuff happens. :D

And I tested the plug. Couldn't figure out if it was supposed to be suppress open or close, so tried it both ways, still didn't start unless I jumped it by hand. Don't recall which now (that was earlier), but one made it run for the normal time, the other it didn't come on at all.

Oh, and the controller along with all glows were replaced about 2-3 years ago, before the previous owner gave up on getting it to run. It then sat till I bought it (and started the original thread on the truck). So it's all pretty much new...

[DmaxMaverick]

If the controller was replaced before for the same problem, and it didn't change anything, I'd suspect the glow inhibit temp switch/sender (like a coolant temp idiot light switch). If you disconnect it, the controller should default to full glow time. If it doesn't help, and the controller has been eliminated as the problem, then the problem should be with the plugs themselves, or wiring/connector condition anywhere along the way. The plug harness has a fusible link inline, but is good if you were able to jumper the circuit and it worked.

[BadDog]

Ok, just replaced it. It does much better, but still a bit hard starting. The previous controller, it just spun like a gasser with no coil wire. With this new controller you can hear it chug, trying to start, but wouldn't light till the third ignition cycle, then it ran fine. Turned off and it was hard to start again. I counted just under 5 seconds till it cleared, so it's on longer, but seems not long enough. But it's 73* outside now, so shouldn't be that hard to start.

Looks like I still have issues to run to ground. But she needed to use it, and it shouldn't be hard to crank when warmed up, so I let her take it. Later, when it's back and cooled off (tomorrow maybe), I'll put an actual stop watch on it to see how long it runs with the thermo on and off.

On another note, if it is converted to manual, what do you do about the periodic cycling you get from the controller for the first few minutes till the temp switch tells it to stop. Do you just thumb it for a few seconds every 30 or so? That's the main concern that made me want to use the real controller.

[phantom309]

once its running on all 8 you don't need afterglow where you live,.;)

Nick

[DmaxMaverick]

Ditto P-309. If it's 73° this time of year in NA where you are, you don't need afterglow. If for any reason you do, with a manual glow, just mimic the controller, like you said. I don't afterglow the 6.2 unless the temps get into the 30's or lower (sometimes, to reduce the white smoke a little quicker). If I'm driving right away, no need for afterglow, as the cylinders heat up very quick. I would not consider this a deciding factor for the switch.

You could also wire in a bypass switch on the existing controller, to manually extend the glow times. The controller is designed just like a starter solenoid. Apply 12V to the exciter pole (little stud), and it will engage the plugs.

I think you may have AC60G or equivalent plugs installed, which require a longer glow cycle. Get a set of Quick Heats, and don't look back. They get to full heat in 5-6 seconds, every time. I like (and use) Kennedy QH's.

[BadDog]

Holidays are killin' me, but finally back on it, and it's time to close the @%#@ door on this problem. Turns out I thought I had it working, but the motor must have heated up just enough from screwing around that it would light without assist. Next day, no start, no way. So I think you are right, and I'm done with auto controllers.

Best I can tell from the schematic, there is nothing I can do to force this controller to come on and stay on at my command. So I'm going to try to find a parts house open today (or tomorrow) and get a Motorcraft solenoid to wire in parallel with the auto. The auto can give the after glow if needed (say, if she goes to Flagstaff or something), and the momentary button and starter solenoid gives us control as/when needed...

[BadDog]

Well, I hope that's the end of that. The controller is still in place, and will provide after-glow as intended, but there is now a Ford solenoid wired in parallel with a horn button under the dash. In the summer, I assume it will work fine as it has earlier this year. But when needed, we can trigger and hold the glows at will, and don't even have to cycle the key to heat again. Running good for now with a 7-8 second count (seemingly) guaranteeing a quick start from dead cold the morning.

[BigGun J]

I recently purchased a 85 form a owner that had all the same issues you have had. He got tired of throwing money and time at the glow, hard, rough starts. When I pulled the motor to transplant into my Landcruiser I found that the glow wires had shorted. Within the harness as they cross over the back head on the passanger side. Was not visably until I pulled the loom apart. I added the manual glow to test drive and the truck would start, ran a bit rough for a short time until all cylinders cleared out. So it was only starting on a few cylinders most likely. When you have an opportunity may check that all individule glow wiers have not overheated and shorted.

Jim

[BadDog]

Thanks, great suggestion.

I already pulled the harness open and visually ran the lines, and I think I covered the full length, but don't recall for sure (was early on), so will check again.