Ingector Fears

[hogbody]

I have a 2003 with 99,000 miles. The injectors were replaced at 65,000 miles. The truck has supplemental filtration and I use FPPF additive. We are out in the rig pulling a travel trailer for about 6 months a year and drive about 15,000 miles a year.

During this years trip I noticed smoke while at an idle. We were in the high country of Utah and it was hot so I felt this might be caused by the lean air and heat while pulling a heavy travel trailer. Since we got back to home in Texas the truck has been driven very little. I picked up some lumbar the other day and after about 30 miles of easy driving I noticed black smoke from the exhaust and had the wife rev. it up and the smoked increased. I occasionally noticed smoked at an idle while we traveled through Oregon, California, Arizona, and New Mex. on the way home to Texas. Not consistently or in large amounts and always at an idle.

Should I be concerned about injectors again (on my dime this time) or is the truck operating normally? Is there any test that can be done to determine if I am approaching another injector failure?

We will be heading out for another 6 months this spring and I don't want to have problems on the road. I need to invest. in tires before we go and I wonder if I should just buck up and buy a 2007-2010 model? In my plans this truck was supposed to go another 150,000 or so........and out live me.

Thanks everyone has been a great help in the past and any suggestions or comments will be appreciated.

MERRY CHRISTMAS

[More Power]

You could check injector balance using a scan tool or other device. That might give some indication whether one or a couple injectors are outside the norm.

Is the engine modified using a performance product or program?

Jim

[hogbody]

Vehicle is stock with no programmer or reprogramming. Runs Great and pulls the trailer fine.

What scan tool would you suggest.....is this a trip to a dealer?

[Mark Rinker]

When did you add the additional filtration and start using FPPF?

[hogbody]

I started the using the Baldwin 2mic filter just prior to the first injector replacement. I used Power Service off and on prior and started using FPPF and Power Service when FPPF was unavailable after the last replacment. Truck has about 34,000 on it since the first injector replacement.

[Mark Rinker]

In this forum I have many posts about a 2002 that I had where injectors were replaced at 170K and I had smoking within about 60K miles after that.

I owned the truck to 270K and treated it regularly with ATF which seemed to temporarily clear up the smoking issues, which alway returned.

The truck was still running great, pulling hard, and delivering great fuel mileage when I sold it.


Not sure what this will tell you, other than its probably injector related, but not necessarily cause for alarm. If you had them repaired at a GM Certified dealership, I'd roll the truck in there and have your observations documented on their system for future reference.

[hogbody]

What ratio of atf did you mix with the fuel? Do you use diesel treatment in addition to atf?

I'm willing to try it for another season as spending 30 to 35 grand on another truck doesn't quite fit in the retirement budget. I only drive the thing during our six months of travel but don't want to have a major issue while on the road.

The dealer is another issue......they have changed the service dept. to a high pressure/commission operation and I am not sure I really trust them......

[Kennedy]

I doubt that you will find anything with the balance rates as the smoking injectors typically fire pretty evenly. In this case I'd be quite certain that it is injectors again.

We've had excellent success using new lines, lift pump, Mega filter, FPPF on these jobs, BUT there is only so much that can be done with crappy fuel. Looks like you have 2 of the 4 ingredients. Not sure which element you are using on the secondary, but getting a 2 micron rating from Baldwin is pretty tough. Most of the smaller units will be 9 micron absolute. I also dislike the alt mount as it is subject to too much heat and vibration making it far from an optimal location and a prime cause of air in fuel.

[hogbody]

Thanks for all the advice. I guess I my memory cells are failing. I have been using the BF1223 which I guess is a 3 micron filter......no matter now however.

I took the truck out for a long drive today. When I got back it is smoking at an idle pretty heavily so I am sure it is due for another set after just 35,000 miles. There is no indication of fuel in the crank case at this point.

The DW and I have talked about it and we are going to start looking for a 2007 to 2009. Any suggestions or comments about those years are appreciated.

The various value sites indicate that my truck is worth 13-15 grand and I don't think I should dump 5 grand plus a set of new tires on this rig. I would feel better if the injectors went longer that 65,000 on the first set and 34,000 on the second. Other than a lift pump I have tried everything I can to make this rig last w/o problems.

I pull a trailer that weighs about 12,000 and enjoy the ride of the duramax and feel that the tranny is the best out there. After researching other brands I'm not sure I could do any better with the 2007+ model years.

All comments and suggestions are welcome......

[Mark Rinker]

DISCLAIMER: " If it were MY truck, I'd... "

- add two quarts of ATF to the next full tank of #2 diesel.
- add one quart of ATF to each tankful there after.
- report back on the effect on smoking at idle.

[hogbody]

Thanks, I will give it a try.....

[Kennedy]

Thanks for all the advice. I guess I my memory cells are failing. I have been using the BF1223 which I guess is a 3 micron filter......no matter now however.

I took the truck out for a long drive today. When I got back it is smoking at an idle pretty heavily so I am sure it is due for another set after just 35,000 miles. There is no indication of fuel in the crank case at this point.


All comments and suggestions are welcome......

I'd have to do my research on teh BF1223, but if I recall correctly this is one of those that Baldwin would call a 9 micron absolute. This is about what I would use on my fuel barrel as a prefilter for my true 3 micron filter.

When researching with Baldwin years ago I learned that the BF7635 had their absolute best media in it which is why I chose it. It is what one would consider a 5 micron absolute and does quite well at 2-3 microns as well.

I'm quite particular about what I use and even set up a Tech Tip entitled Duramax Injector failures. I believe that the lack of a lift pump is a key here as is small particle filtration.

At the very least I'd suggestrelocating the aux filteroff the engine and adding a lift pump.

[Inspector]

John:
I have reason to believe that a good many of Baldwins filters are now made I China. My question goes to recent quality. Do you have any reason to believe that quality and specs have been compromised?
Denny

[Kennedy]

Some are yes, but there is a difference. The way that I understand this is that Baldwin has a facility in China versus shopping to the loweset mfr pricing. Also it is limited models that are made there. The OE fuel filter elements are made there now. I have dissected them and find them to be of top notch build quality. The Megas are still USA.

[Inspector]

Thanks John. We needed that clarification.
As usual you are on top of it.
Thanks again
Denny

[Kennedy]

I have been using the BF1223 which I guess is a 3 micron filter......no matter now however.



From Baldwin: The BF1223 is actually rated at 10 micron absolute and the BF7635 is rated at 5 micron absolute.

From me: The problem with micron ratings is that even a 10 absolute could be called a 2 micron unit because it stops SOME particles at 2 microns.

More reading: http://www.baldwinfilter.com/literature/english/10%20TSB's/89-5R3.pdf

[hogbody]

Thanks for all the info. I now recall reading about the BF1223 micron rating in an article on this site sometime ago "The list of potential filters include the Baldwin BF1223 3-Micron (shown), Wix 33411 3-Micron, Fleet Guard FS1287 3-Micron, Donaldson 3-Micron and the Racor R60S (T or P 2-30-Micron). This was an article on the Universal Filter that I subsequently purchased. Evidently the ratings all have different meanings.

I called a couple of shops for estimates on injector replacement and recieved one "ball park" quote for $3500 using remanufactured injectors. I recieved another for $5500 using new injectors. When they were replaced last time the cost was almost $5000 charged to GM and the bill indicates that remanufactured injectors were installed.

I loaded the truck up with injector cleaner and I am going to drive it for another month to see if it gets worse and monitor the crankcase for fuel and then decide what I want to do.
If I do have it repaired I will definetly look at the filter and lift pump situation.

[hogbody]

I changed the oil today and I took out just about 10 quarts so no fuel dilution is occuring. It still is smoking a little after it has warmed up and driven hard but a lot less than before.

I have ordered a Edge Insight Monitor as I had no EGT guage and such. It manual says it will read injector balance rates. I'll try it out when I get it installed. After reading other threads I realize that it probably won't be as good as the dealer's scan but we will give it a try.

Larry

[Mark Rinker]

Did you ever add any ATF? If so, what was the result re smoking at idle?

[hogbody]

I added a qt of atf and a large bottle of lucas injector cleaner. ran it like crazy and the smoke is about half of what it was at a warm idle. The smoke quit during acceleration. I plan on following your advice with 2 qts. the next tankfull.

[hogbody]

I have an Edge Insight CTS Guage Display and obtained the following readings. When I started the truck it did not smoked. I operated the truck to an engine coolant temp. of 188 degrees and tested the rates in Park, Neutral and Drive. The truck was smoking at this time.

Park Neutral Drive
#1 2.1 2.0 3.8
#2 2.8 2.2 1.4
#3 1.9 2.1 5.1
#4 4.6 3.8 5.0
#5 -1.9 -0.1 -1.6
#6 -1.9 -2.4 -2.8
#7 -4.5 -4.8 -7.0
#8 -3.0 -3.2 -3.3

Based upon what I have read that readings outside +/1 4.0 indicate a problem. Any further input suggestions and advice will be appreciated.

Thanks

[Kennedy]

I equate balance rates to going to the Dr. and having temp taken. Not a whole lot is learned from it unless you see something blatantly obvious.

The smoking at idle to me is obvious that the injectors need to be replaced and further diagnosis is more a waste of time than anything. Kind of like testing return rates on a 2003 with extended crank time.

[hogbody]

I talked to GM today about the smoking issue and it was indicated to me that based upon the low mileage between injectors failing they would extend the time of the warranty for another replacement if I had the truck diagnosed and it met the warranty criteria. I am going to take it in to the dealership on Monday and have them test it.'

It was interesting to note that when I explained the problem to them they said that this happens often.

[Kennedy]

I talked to GM today about the smoking issue and it was indicated to me that based upon the low mileage between injectors failing they would extend the time of the warranty for another replacement if I had the truck diagnosed and it met the warranty criteria. I am going to take it in to the dealership on Monday and have them test it.'

It was interesting to note that when I explained the problem to them they said that this happens often...


...and typically the balance and return rates come back within spec leaving the vehicle owner holding the bag for several hundred dollars of "diagnosis." Not to put the cart before the horse, but be prepared to have to raise a big stink (polite, concise, and to the point) with GM Customer Care. This based on what I have seen/heard from others.

[hogbody]

I agree with you it will probably get ugly before it gets better. I don't have much faith in the current service dept. based upon other issues. The service dept. quoted $111.00 for the diagnosis. This is their hourly rate.

The GM guy says the problem is due to failing injector bodies.

It runs a little rough, no service codes have been set, it smokes heavy at an idle when warm and when punched, but I cannot detect fuel in the oil.

What is the acceptable parameter for fuel return rates and injector balance?

The problem with the situation is that we are here in Texas for six months and I hardly use the truck but we go on the road for the other 6 months and the truck is used for towing a heavy trailer. I can't afford to be stuck in the Dakota's with bad injectors.

Thanks for the advice and any other suggestions if an arguement ensues let me know.

[Kennedy]

the policy has changed several times so I can't say for sure, but the criteria generally center around return rates and possibly fuel in oil. I had a local customer with the smoking issue. He took to his local dealer and got shot down. I sent him to a dealer with a reputation of taking care of people who covered it. Later talked to the dealer and he got hung out by GM on this job.

[DMAX2196]

I have a 2003 LB7 stock other than a PPE boost increase valve. I was having blue smoke at idle. Had my injectors read and replaced numbers 5 and 7. Still have smoke at idle and has recently started smoking at highway speeds. I am clueless as to what it could be now. Everything is reading normal on the readouts the 2 times I have taken it to the dealership. If anyone has any feedback on this problem or has had it happen to them I would appreciate it. I have prepared myself for the worst.

Jonathan Oliver
2003 Chevrolet LB7
PPE BIV
K&N Filter
4 in. Straight Pipe.

[Kennedy]

I have a 2003 LB7 stock other than a PPE boost increase valve. I was having blue smoke at idle. Had my injectors read and replaced numbers 5 and 7. Still have smoke at idle and has recently started smoking at highway speeds. I am clueless as to what it could be now. Everything is reading normal on the readouts the 2 times I have taken it to the dealership. If anyone has any feedback on this problem or has had it happen to them I would appreciate it. I have prepared myself for the worst.

Jonathan Oliver
2003 Chevrolet LB7
PPE BIV
K&N Filter
4 in. Straight Pipe.

I have no doubt this is your injectors. This tends to reinforce my general distrust of balance rate numbers.

Replacing anything less than a set of 8 is a waste of time IMHO and gets you to where you are now.

[hogbody]

Dropped off the truck this AM. Service writer knew I had an appointment but no notes on the contact of them by GM Customer Service. He said there was no warranty on the problem and he couldn't help me other than having the vehicle checked to see what was wrong.

After explaining the situation to him, he asked what the GM criteria for the test was and I told him that I didn't know. He will have his tech determine what is causing the miss, smoke and smell. I asked for a printout of any scans and he said that they couldn't print any thing out but would provice the relevant test results. I told him to test for the same things that they did the last time the injectors failed. I gave him my claim number.

He says that he can't deal with GM customer service as my advocate as GM would think he was trying to drum up warranty work. I would have to be my own advocate so forth and so on. He said not to get my hopes up. Thanks to this forum I know more about the problems than he does and I don't know much!

Obviously this will be a battle........we shall see where it goes.

Larry

[hogbody]

I called GM customer service who gave me the case # and I recontacted the service writer with that. GM customer service called me late in the afternoon stating they called the dealer and wanted to know why I hadn't taken the truck in. I told them I did per the appointment. He said the dealer showed no record of it being there. He said he would call them tomorrow morning.



I picked up the truck and all the service writer would tell me is that it needs new injectors and it would cost $4715.89. The injectors are leaking at an idle. He could not tell me anything about balance test and return flow, ect. He had no idea if they meet GM's criteria for replacement. He said he would talke to Customer Service but not to expect anything from them without a fight. The tech and service manager were unavailable.



Paid $111.00 to find out what I alread knew.



The saga continues................................

[hogbody]

I went back to the dealer this AM and met with the tech. The service writer has no clue. The tech says that they are leaking at the tip at an idle. He couldn't specify which ones. He checked for fuel in the oil using the oil spot on paper test and it showed none. He said the fuel return rates were normal as their were no trouble codes set. He said the problem is caused by a "collar" in the injector that is not sealing and allowing the fuel to leak. He says it was described to him in training like a "mouse pissing". He says the condition does not usually get worse. The truck runs fine at a load and shows no sign of cracked injector bodies.


Does this sound right to you 'all?

[Kennedy]

I don't know about "right" but I'd say "typical" or "predictable"

[derrel]

I have just had my injectors replaced by a local GMC dealer after another fellow at work went through the entirely same process, one week apart? Both trucks are LB7 rigs, his an 03 with 145,000 and mine an 04 with 126,000. His has a Superchips program loaded also. mine had an Edge Juice, but i pulled it off before they got it. Told them what was going on and when they called back and said to sit down and the proceeded to tell me it was going to cost $5300 to replace them. We both told them well you better just put it back together, beacuse I cannot even come close to paying that much! Then the service writer went through the exact same speil about how she had a call into GM to see if they could help out in anyway? On the call back we were both told that it would be $1500 to have the new Bosch injectors installed. BUT, we each had to bring our delinquite services up to date! His was a fuel filter and an oil change for a total of $1750 Out the door. Mine was a brake system flush, coolant flush, powersteering flush, engine oil change and fuel filter for $2238 out the door? Has anybody else experienced this little process? I was also told by a ex-service writer (after the fact!) that if you stay calm, pleasant and persestent and go to the service manager and insist that this is a well known and documented problem and you do not think you should have to pay even this amount. If he refuses to do anything you ask for the district/zone GM rep or managers number and go through the very same process. It is supposed to successful a lot, as long as you DO NOT get nasty or anything, then you are done!

[hogbody]

It is still in GM Customer Service hands. Their responses and comments acknowledge that their is a continuing problem with the injectors. The dealer that did the diagnosis apparently does not want to work with them or me on the problem. She is going to go up the GM food chain at this point.

[Kennedy]

We generally end up at about $4k installed with new lines, thermostats, coolant, spin on fuel filter etc. Add Mega filter, lift pumps, case of additive and it pushes $5k.

Your "delinquent services" sounds like a line of BS, then again, you are still coming out better than the injector job itself AND you are getting some additional maintenance performed.

[hogbody]

Just got off the phone with the District Specialist from GM and evidently the dealer has had a change of heart and has agreed to do the job at 50% off. So the injector replacement will cost about $2360 plus tax.

I am happy with this settlement as she said that the problem did not fit the previous warranty conditions but the problem is obviously with the injectors.

They are ordering parts and it will hit the shop next week.

It is obvious that patience and persistence pays off. I never got angry or arguementative and just let the situation play out. I didn't expect this but I am happy with it.

Now I can continue to drive my paid for truck and decide to upgrade on my own time.

I need to research lift pump and filtration up grades.........I am still not convinced that the injectors in this model year are just screwed up. Hopefully the upgrades to them make a difference.

Thanks for all the advice.

Larry

[Kennedy]

I would be watching over the Techs shoulder to see what resides in the bowls of the injectors as far as rust and grit when opened up. New lines are cheap insurance.

[hogbody]

I will call them tomorrow and tell them I want new lines at there costs......

Thanks..............

[Kennedy]

I'm quite interested to know what the injector inlet bowls look like from a dry south climate with no road salt.

[hogbody]

The truck has lived in the Pacific NW until two years ago. No salt but plenty of damp climate for the first 7 years or so. I will try to get it to check it out but this dealer is pretty protective of the shop access.................