OBDII Computer Upgrades - Shootout?

[GMCfourX4]

Just out of curiosity, has anyone ever compared Kennedy, Heath, BD, etc.... I'd like to know if anyone has tested them using a neutral person's vehicle, and running them back to back on a dyno... I've heard people say that they ran both at different times on thier trucks, and thought one was better than the other, and obviously the vendors will each tell you theirs is the best. What I'd really prefer to see is that on a given truck, with X mods, the stock computer ran Xhp/Xlb-ft, and Heath's reflash did Yhp/Ylb-ft, and Kennedy's did Zhp/Zlb-ft.
If this hasn't been done, I'd be happy to be the victim, er, volunteer, and run MY truck on the dyno, and purchse whoever's computer won (assuming that there is a noticeable difference over my stock '99 programming....).
The claims are everywhere from 30-70hp and 40-165 lb/ft over stock... For between $500-$600, I'd like to know if there are any independent tests before I spend my money.

-Chris

[AndyL]

I second this request. However I believe Wester's does both JKs and Heaths reflash, they may be very close to the same!

[GMCfourX4]

Accoring to what Bill Heath told me, his program is totally different, and changes both the fuel rate AND fuel timing curve. Kennedy says Westers makes his program, and they're priced the same, whereas Heath's is about $70 less (based on what their respective websites say...) I have heard that BD uses the same program, but I don't know if that information is reliable... Actually, I don't know if any of it is, which is why I'd like to see side-by-side data! :D

-Chris

[JoeyD]

Chris, What did your truck dyno at ACS? I have Bill's reflash and was at 180rwhp. Lack of intercooling is hurting me as intake temps are sky high when the throttle is hammered.

[rjschoolcraft]

For starters, every claim that I've seen regarding specific numbers for horsepower improvement is bogus. I've seen claims of 60 - 80 hp gain just by installing a chip...no way! It takes more than that to get that kind of power out of a 6.5, plain and simple.

Some vendors claim a lot of power from their electronics, others avoid making claims that cannot be substantiated. When my engine is back together, I'll be making another trip to the dynamometer to document what I've done. I anticipate running several different configurations at that time. I expect that the Heath chip that rides around in my glove box will get tested for comparison...

[JoeyD]

Ron, You have nailed anyone that sells 6.5 performance parts, no solid consistant gains advertised.

[rjschoolcraft]

No, some advertise gains, but don't deliver. Others are up front about the limitations of the 6.5, but deliver improvement that varys based on the condition of the particular engine in question. My truck saw a 21 hp and 36 lb-ft improvement from the stock chip to Kennedy's TDMax chip; however, I had an intercooler, high pop injectors, K&N filter with no snorkel and Banks exhaust on my truck at the time of testing. After adjusting the TDC Offset Learn and adding a boost controller, I netted 35 hp and 55 lb-ft improvement over the stock chip with the mechanical modifications.

Since I don't have any numbers on my truck when it was stock, I will compare to a 97 Suburban that John tested that was stock with a gutted cat. That truck made 138 hp and 326 lb-ft. So, my total net over stock is probably 85 hp and 102 lb-ft...but it took more than a chip (or reflash) to get there.

[autocrosser]

I xcana say this easily. With the loads I pull (max 8500lbs) I would be stupid to buy a Duramax. I've done the JK exhaust, Heath boost controller and Heath ECM reprogram it came with the HO water pump and dual thermostats. I can climb long steep hills at 60mph comfortably that I had a hard time mainting 25mph on before mods. The only thing I need is the 9 blade fan and I should have the cooling licked. I may add water injection if needed later. The big intecoolers don't fit the 6lug wheel trucks due to no where to run the hoses. If I had the heavy duty frame I would have one. I love my truck.

The biggest actual power imrovement resulted from the reflash of the ECM. It's like a new truck with that. I see no reason to add high pop/flow injectors.

[LanduytG]

All the chips that are available will not even come close to the gain that the large intercooler JK sells will give you. Its a lot of money but IMHO is the basic building block to better 6.5TD performance.

I have pulled my 5th wheel all over the counrty and gross out at 16K pounds. I have all the mods but it was not till the IC went in that it came alive.

Some of the tuffest pulls are in the rockies and the old 6.5TD hung in their with the best of them. Yes the power strokes passed me but still were insight by the time we got to the top. The Dodge would get me on bottom end but when everything got wound up I passed them with no trouble at all.

The 6.5TD has its limits but is still a good performer for what it is. Of course now the son dries it and I have a new Dmax which is a rocket by comparison.

Greg

[arrowheadracing]

Interesting to hear that the IC made the biggest difference. I would question

1. Does it make as noticeable difference unloaded as loaded. Or is it more suited to someone that is just pulling heavy loads. ( my reason is I dont really pull anything heavy with mine ever , just looking for more mileage and bang )

2. Is this claim before any mods or after all the mods. Is it the main piece in the puzzle that lets everything work together in harmony.

I havent done alot of work with turbo powered motors. And most of the supercharged motors where simply drag motors only run for 8 seconds at a time. So cooling anything was futile to a point.

I ll have to put my truck up on the dyno. And see what I come up with before and after the IC.

Thanks
Todd

[rjschoolcraft]

The intercooler is that piece that lets everything else work. There is no question that towing heavy is where the most improvement from the intercooler is found, but it also helped my truck out when solo as well. EGT is lower all across the board...huge benefit, towing or not. Every turbocharged engine should have a charge air cooler.

[LanduytG]

You can see the difference the IC mad with and without pulling a load and also with or without the chip.

My IAT is never over 120* no matter how hot it is outside. I can now add more fuel because my EGT's never get over 1200*. Before the IC it would go way past 1300*. Its nice to set the cruise and not worry about the EGT's now.

The difference you see with and without IC not pulling a load is like the difference between a cold winter day and a hot 100* summer day with high humidity.

I my book the IC is the very first step in building power from a 6.5TD.

Greg

[Kennedy]

Originally posted by Joey D:
Ron, You have nailed anyone that sells 6.5 performance parts, no solid consistant gains advertised. And if one calls me and asks what HP a chip makes, you get about the same answer as Ronniejoe summed up. They are all different. Where I do see consistent and repeatable gains is with my exhaust and boost controls...


Greg's comments on the IC are echoed many times over by new IC customers. You no longer burn your hand on the hood latch, and can lay your hand on the intake in most cases...

[GMCfourX4]

JoeyD;
I pulled (from memory) 188hp and 388 lb-ft, the intercooler's still not hooked up. CharlieP's truck was very close to mine, his is also non-intercooled. I am currently running (like it says in the sig...) JK exhaust, Heath Turbo-Master, Heath hi-pop injectors, dual-electric fans, and I had my cold front in during the pulls. It was very cold that morning, so I forgot to take at least a couple panels out. Since I wasn't driving it on the dyno, I didn't look to see what it was at for boost, etc. I believe that if I had taken out at least part of the cold front I would have gotten slightly higher numbers (as soon as it warmed up the truck started running like a dog until I took out the center pieces of the cold front) and I know the guy just mashed the pedal to the floor and held it, which will easily cause IATs that will make the computer back off on fuel. If I give the truck about 75% throttle, it pulls MUCH harder than if I pin it to the floor (unless its close to or below 0*). The guys there (at ACS) have the equipment to mandrel bend 3" aluminum, and a neighbor (at the shop next-door) who is supposed to be a very good TIG welder, so I'm going to get my silicone connectors and clamps in order and go down there and get my intercooler hooked up... Then I'm going to run her again. Joey, did you make any progress with yours?

-Chris

[JoeyD]

Originally posted by kennedy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Joey D:
Ron, You have nailed anyone that sells 6.5 performance parts, no solid consistant gains advertised. And if one calls me and asks what HP a chip makes, you get about the same answer as Ronniejoe summed up. They are all different. Where I do see consistent and repeatable gains is with my exhaust and boost controls...


Greg's comments on the IC are echoed many times over by new IC customers. You no longer burn your hand on the hood latch, and can lay your hand on the intake in most cases... </font>[/QUOTE]I was not bashing anyone but Ron with that post I made. I took his post as anyone selling added HP to a 6.5 customer was not going to make a claim on gained HP and was either lying about what power you will see or just not going to tell you by beating around the bush.

[JoeyD]

I am also sold on the intercooler idea and honestly think it should be the very 1st thing we do. While it's the most expensive, it is basically required on a turbo charged motor. If snow plowing was out for me I would have one in a minute

[rjschoolcraft]

Originally posted by Joey D:
I was not bashing anyone but Ron with that post I made. I took his post as anyone selling added HP to a 6.5 customer was not going to make a claim on gained HP and was either lying about what power you will see or just not going to tell you by beating around the bush. Thanks for being honest...

Bash me all you want, but you misunderstood what I said. If you read it again, you'll see what I meant.

My point is this: it's easy to claim hp gain, but a lot harder to back it up. Have those numbers been backed up by dynamometer testing on several different vehicles or engines? I'd rather have a guy be honest about the situation and tell me what the chip (or reflash) does from a fuel and boost standpoint than make a specific hp claim. Furthermore, those vendors who claim 40+ hp from installing their chip (or reflash) in a 6.5 are not being truthful in my experience. They may not be outright lying, but may be guesstimating from seat-of-the-pants feel...which is terribly inaccurate.

My experience has to do with a 1995 Chevrolet Suburban K2500 6.5 Turbo Diesel. If other years are more responsive, then maybe I'm wrong.

One vendor claims (and I quote from the website), "Typical gain in output is 65 hp and 150 lb ft torque!". I've run this chip in my truck...

In the end, buyer beware!

[LanduytG]

One vendor claims (and I quote from the website), "Typical gain in output is 65 hp and 150 lb ft torque!". I've run this chip in my truck...
65hp out of just a chip is hard to believe, but I have never had mine on a dyno. May be if JK has another dyno day the kid will let me drive it up and see what it does. Hint John hint.

Greg

[JoeyD]

Ron, I read it again and it may be that John was the only one you weren't bashin. I know others make claims and they don't add up so maybe your right...

[Turbine Doc]

Ditto on IC as a necessity for power, it does not add power per-sei, but allows you to use untapped power available with some mods and tweaking.

If JK weren't so darn far away, Id run my Heath vs his just to find out once & for all myself, really makes no nevermind to me which is better, as long as I can pull my backhoe with ease when I need to now and again, so far this one works for me. FWIW I have both BH & JK products & no special allegiance to either, if it works I run it.

From what I've learned from both times I've dynoed mine, dyno operation, & ability to lock converter, plus air across the IC is very important(unfortunately no dyno I've been to yet provides IC fan, next time I'll bring my own). I just ran mine last weekend, 50F day no air across IC, no lockup and made 198.7 best Hp in 4th & 390.5 Tq best torque in 3rd. Lowest Hp was 191.3 3rd, lowest Tq was 375.1 in 4th Hp & Tq are inverse hi on 1 is low on the other.

I haven't quite figured out how to post easily here plus the light color ink scans don't show well but results & dyno charts are on another site I hang out at but can't link here.

I ran with a stock L65 PCM in my L56 truck all stuff bypassed made 150 Hp & 292' Tq at that event, ran this year with Heath's reflash in a L65 PCM being the only change and picked up 44Hp avg 3 runs, & 91' torque, on a non cooled IC & no torque lock 3rd gear made better Tq, 1 run was in 4th made better Hp.

I'm still flowing through a L56 intake with EGR capped but it's still in there heating things up some, also at the event I was informed I probably lost some to my AT tire tread pattern and only 35 psi, that may or may not be true I don't know only my 2nd dyno.

I had hoped to run my stock L56, & my Heath L65 just did not have time to do it; 35 trucks ran that day. I have found a facility in New Orleans that has a dyno, that I may get a chance to run all as a test in various configurations, & use a T2 to lock up the converter to see what I get there.

I had even thought of buying a G-teck to see if the changes would show there, but have been advised it's apples & oranges and not really worth the money. Anybody have experience with the new one to say one way or other.

I also have some boost issues to understand, last year using a JK fooler, I only made 12-13 psi boost then GM program clipped me to 9, this year I peaked to 13-14 WG direct plumbed direct to Vac pump, no fooler, or TM. During the drive home & even now easily I can hit 15-16 but it does not stay always drifts back to 13-14 once I let up a little, even with a wired shut turbo.

[ 02-10-2005, 03:21 PM: Message edited by: tbogemirep ]

[JoeyD]

I just looked at Bill H's web site and he has a hotter programed ECM for the Hummer H1. I wonder if it will work on the trucks.

Chris, I am making no progress on my inercooler. I ended up with Bill H water kit but never mounted the tank as I was hauling stuff with my truck all the time so bed space was needed. I will try to get it hooked up this weekend as it's empty all the time now. I was talking with the guy at ACS about doing a complete 5 in exhaust for my truck with a new crossover as big as they could fit, $1000 installed. Not bad I guess installed from turbo to tailpipeall welded as well. We will see.

[Billman]

Hey Chris

From my experience, Dynos are used for Engine break-in, Fine-tuning a combination, and giving you HP/TQ numbers.

I have built my share of engines, none which have made it to the Dyno. 1320 feet of concrete and asphalt were my Dyno. All done in Real-World conditions.

Everybody here can have their truck measured at different places on different days but you can't compare any of the figures to each other. There are way too many variables.

1 Dyno, Same Day. That's the only way to get accurate info.

Even better. Sign up for Jim's Pull-Off.

Real-World conditions...

[Turbine Doc]

18K of GN trailer & backhoe will put er to the test, my setup hasn't let me down so far.

[GMCfourX4]

Billman;
I agree with you, my suggestion was to have the SAME truck run on the SAME dyno with each ECM swapped in for 3-5 pulls. That way, there would be figures on how 1 individual truck performed with each computer. It would be even better to have a few different setups run in the same fashion, such as an intercooled auto, intercooled manual, and a non-intercooled version of each. If they were all run with first the stock program, then each of the aftermarket programs, we might find out which program outperforms all others, or that one program might be better suited for one setup over another. It would also give an idea of how much EXTRA RWHP and torque they actually create.

-Chris