View Full Version : Head Gasket Failure ?
Hi,
Been a while since posting but have not had any problems in a while. Last wednesday I started my 1994 C3500 and drove about 4 miles and saw white steam coming from the exhaust and so I stopped and antifreeze was coming out of the overflow bottle.So I shut it off in a parking lot. I figured it was the gaskets or cracked head so I had it towed to a nearby Chevy dealer . There preliminary diagnosis was head gaskets and there quote was $2,754.00 and could go up depending on condition of heads. So I had it hauled back to me. Today I removed the glow plugs and spun the engine over and all cylinders had water present but # 2 6 8 5 7 had the most blow out. Why would there be water in all the cylinders ? I thought that when the gaskets failed there would only be one or two cylinders. Also the oil level is way above normal but is still black and not milky or seperated.
The truck was running flawlessly and currently has 155,000 miles on it and this happened with absolutely no warning.
So do you think it could just be head gasket failure or some other problem ? Thanks for any advice.
Almost sounds like water somehow got into the intake manifold, although that in itself doesn't account for the pressure in the overflow bottle.
The oil is probably sitting on top of all the water in the crankcase. If you intend to save the engine, get the water out and some clean oil circulated through the oil galleries, even if you just do it by motoring it with the starter. Or, you could drain the cooling system and try to run it at idle for a minute. You want to get oil back in the lubrication system without introducing any more water. Antifreeze is very corrosive to the bearings.
Once that is accomplished, pull the heads off and see where you stand. I suppose it is possible that a cracked head could both pressurize the cooling system and allow coolant into the intake, but speculation at this point is not worth much
I am not too sure about this one.
Water in that many cylinders and on opposite sides of the engine makes no sense at all.
Did you get large amounts of liquid or just a MIST coming out ??
Did you shut down power to the injector pump ?? If not you may have been seeing fuel mist coming out of some glow plug holes and not water.
Usually its one of the front two cylinders that blows through to coolant
These cylinders have a nasty habit of the gasket failing.
As mentioned, drain the coolant, drain oil, swap on a cheapy filter and fill it with some cheap oil and run it for a couple minutes to get the Glycol flushed out.
Drain it again then rip it apart.
I would recommend yanking the engine out of the rig.
Its far easier to really see what your doing and get a good job with the engine out and on a stand.
Keep us posted
Missy
john8662
12-08-2011, 09:08
reversion, open intake valve in cylinder where gasket let go.
Take truck to competatant mechanic have them drain the oil, pull the heads and take a look see.
If everything was fine before, probably gasket. Don't know anything until its apart.
reversion, open intake valve in cylinder where gasket let go.
Sounds better than my idea!
Thanks for the replies.I will drop the oil and antifreeze and refill with fresh oil and filter and start just for a minute so the oil will circulate. I will have to let it sit till after December when my work slows down and I can take it apart.
I can not afford the prices for a shop especially if the heads have to be replaced. I have the tools to do the job just not the time right now so I will start on it in January hopefully.
The idea of coolant getting shoved up through the intake and crossing into other cylinders sounds plausible for sure.
A good set of heads can be had from Clearwater in FL for about $670 to your door.
The spots you need to be very careful to inspect are the areas right around the gasket fire rings on the BLOCK
The front 2 are notorious for eroding the deck right were the fire ring sits.
If the deck is not eroded then a good cleaning and fresh gaskets and bolts will likely make it all better.
Just get the coolant out of the oil will sure help.
Add 15-40 oil except add a quart of auto tranny oil as the last quart.
This will help clean out the nasty stuff.
The bearings will wash out easily, its the lifters that I worry about.
A minute or so of idle should wash it out good.
When you yank it down, be sure to mark each Push rod as to which end was UP to the rocker.
They are not swappable, the one end is hard the other is not.
Originally these had a copper colored ball to the rocker. It may still be visible, and it may not, just mark them well.
Missy
john8662
12-08-2011, 17:19
I would NOT recommend starting it up again. It'll be ok to just drain the oil out now and leave it dry.
Pull the heads next year when you have a chance. Good to hear you're a grease monkey like the rest of us who will get their hands dirty to save a buck and learn something.
I would NOT recommend starting it up again. It'll be ok to just drain the oil out now and leave it dry.
I would be concerned about bearing erosion if it sits for a month or so with glycol in there. Don't know for sure, but if it were mine I'd flush it out ASAP.
The oil is probably sitting on top of all the water in the crankcase.
No it isn't. Engine oil is formulated to hold water ins suspension (emulsion).
However, ethylene glycol will turn the oil t sludge quickly, so draining and replacing it immediately is a good plan.
Drain the oil, drain the coolant down with the drain cock, refill the crankcase and change the filter.
Leave the cooling system cap off and start the beast and run it about a minute or so maybe two at idle to clear out the crap, then drain it out and leave it that way until you can get it apart.
As long as you have purged the cylinders of water and drained the coolant down below the deck level so no more coolant can enter, running the thing will not hurt, in fact purging out the old crap is a far better way to fly.
Leaving the old crud sitting in the lifters and bearings is going to exact a toll in short order.
The only danger in a restart is IF you still have water in the cylinders.
I had this very same scenario play out on a 94 Burb.
The gasket blew from Number 2 into the water passage and as soon as I shut the thing off it filled the crankcase with coolant.
The engine had 240K miles and I yanked it out that same day and tore it apart.
I did a complete overhaul on that one so flushing was not a really big deal.
Good luck
Missy.
Hi All,
Today I changed the oil and filter. Before replacing the drain plug I poured in a quart of trans fluid and let that run thru and it flushed out some thick sludge . So when that drained completely I filled with oil and a fresh filter, drained the coolant and replaced the glow plugs. I drained the first two gallons of fluid in some jugs one of which was clear glass and there was a gallon of antifreeze in the oil.
I removed the upper intake and there was antifreeze in the intake. So the theory of an intake valve being open on the cylinder that has the rupture in the gasket must be true. And after being shut off it ran up the into the intake and spread to the different cylinders.
So after that I started the engine and let it run for a minute to circulate the oil and it ran great no skip or nothing .After shutting it down I checked the oil and it had turned dark . SO I let it sit for about 15 minutes and rechecked the oil and it was clear so I figured combustion gas had mixed with oil and then cleared up after it settled.
So for now I will remain positive since seeing the coolant in the intake and hope maybe it will just be gaskets or at most a cracked head and not any bottom end damage. I have already priced a set of heads , gaskets ,and bolts from odessa heads in clearwater fl for $800 . Is that a good company to deal with on Ebay and good products ?
So I will still plan to tear it down after Christmas. Thanks for the help
Tear it down and identify the problem before you spend money on a new set of heads.
Robyn has used Clearwater (and no doubt will chime in) and has been known to recommend them. Others have disagreed in the past. (I have no direct knowledge...)
phantom309
12-11-2011, 10:37
I,d step up for a set of head studs, torque to yield bolts suck.
jmho
nick
I finally got around to pulling the heads off . Some of the head bolts seemed tighter than others . Also on the pass side head the bolt that goes through the dowel pin around cyl #2 got stuck in the head. Right above the dowel pin is where It appears to have the weak spot in the gasket. After removing the head I had to beat that bolt with a punch to get it out and it had a lot of crud built up on the body of the bolt. Must not have had enough sealer on it and coolant could have seeped around it not sure ?
Cleaned the surfaces of the heads and found cracks in between the valves. I have read that other people have theses and are ok. Also there were cracks in some of the precups but they did not get to or extend past the fire ring.
The truck has 155,000 miles on it and this is the first time the engine has been into .
Should these heads be rebuilt or just have them pressure tested , checked for warpage and reinstall ?
I,d step up for a set of head studs, torque to yield bolts suck.
jmho
nick
Can you install ARP studs while engine is in truck ?
If so how do you gain enough clearance in the rear of the engine on the pass. side ?
Most folks leave the rear studs out and install them by putting a nut/washer on and dropping them in a bolt hole in the head while they put the head on the block.
Then double nut them to run them down in the block and continue on as normal.
sctrailrider
04-02-2012, 14:10
I have a good set of heads that don't have the precups in them, everything else is there and ready to go if you need a set cheap, send me a PM.
Chris
phantom309
04-02-2012, 19:30
Can you install ARP studs while engine is in truck ?
If so how do you gain enough clearance in the rear of the engine on the pass. side ?
pass side rear is a pain,.just put a bit of masking tape on the stud to hold it in place while you set the head on,.
The ARP studs have a hex head socket on the end to turn them in to the block,.
plenty of good sealer, and turn them in until you have just a thread or two sticking up higher than the thickness of the washer and nut combined,.
I personally wouldn't trust heads with cracks in them but i understand there is a way to fix them,. but i,m not familiar with the process.
Nick
convert2diesel
04-02-2012, 20:22
If your that far into it, another place to check is the rear plate of the water pump. Have run across a few where the cavitation from the pump has literally eaten away the rear plate and allowed coolent into the timing chain cover.
Bill
john8662
04-02-2012, 21:59
Depends on the cracks. light cracks that you can't fit a fingernail in, run em. Big deep cracks, might consider replacement or at least checking.
Look at your valve recession in the heads. This might tell you what to do. I've pulled a few heads lately to inspect only to find a few sunk intake valves, obviously those aren't sealing well, because they've gone beyond their life/seat life.
Ran fine before the failure right? you found a failed gasket, repair the issue that led to the downtime and you'll be running again.
Forget Head Studs, you'll be chasing coolant leaks in the engine from here on out. The only way I've gotten them to seal is by using RTV on the threads in the block. I did this with the engine out of the truck where I was able to screw the studs in and wipe all excess sealant off the deck before installing the gasket, then the heads.
They're probably good for performance holding together, but for an under ~300hp engine, install the New bolts and forget about it, it'll be fine. Just do good prep on the deck surface and chase the threads (make a thread chaser out of an old bolt).
If your that far into it, another place to check is the rear plate of the water pump. Have run across a few where the cavitation from the pump has literally eaten away the rear plate and allowed coolent into the timing chain cover.
Bill
I had to replace the water pump early last year and the mounting plate was fine then. Thanks
I took the heads to the machine shop and going to have them pressure tested and if they pass I will have them surfaced. The machinist said the fire ring groove where the gasket blew could cause a problem if not surfaced.
In the meantime I will send the injectors to a fuel injection shop and have them rebuilt with new bosch nozzles as they are original and will be easier to install now than later.
Also in the manual that I have it says the precups should have two dots and the letter T stamped on them for a turbo engine and mine only have one dot. Did GM change that in 1994 cause the books I have were printed in 1992(GM training manual).
Thanks for all the replies.
Between you, me and the dust on the floor.
I have been through a buttload of these 6.5 engines and seen all manners of failures.
The places to look over carefully are around the two front cylinders.
Check the deck areas really really well for erossion into the deck where the fire ring sits.
The large coolant passage in the head that allows coolant to sit right on the block, causes an electrolysis type effect to set up there.
The gasket fabric weakens over time and the firs ring etches into the deck.
Dark stains are no worries, but an actual groove into the block is bad news.
Scrape the deck really well with a sharp scraper and then go over it with a body sanding bar with a piece of 100 grit paper on it.
Be sure to use a sanding board that can bring the entire deck (across from top to bottom)
This will assure that you get a good clean up.
Once this is done, wipe it off with a rag dampened with brake kleen to remove any junk.
You will be able to see things really good now.
If you can feel a groove in the deck the block needs to be machined in order to be trusted to last any length of time.
This is a common malady with these engines.
If the decks check out OK, run the proper tap through every head bolt hole in the deck to clear all the crap out.
Flush the threads with a little brakekleen to get any residual junk out and leave the threads ready to accept new bolts.
I would not spend the $$$ on studs, the standard Felpro TTY bolts are just fine.
Use Felpro gaskets too.
Now as far as the heads go.
Myself, I would not waste a thin DIME on a set of heads with that many miles on them.
Been there done that and then had to redo them.
Clearwater has a great deal on brand new Zero hour heads.
These are fresh, no cracks, ready to bolt on.
Had great luck with them and the best part is peace of mind that they re not going to leak or ???
The cost of the heads is not all that much, plus if you have issues with the old ones you have the cost of a redo. Gaskets, Bolts and all, the work to do it over.
Good luck
Missy
Hi Missy,
I thought the Clearwater heads were chinese made and not of good quality ?
How long have you been running yours ?
Thanks
phantom309
04-04-2012, 06:03
Forget Head Studs, you'll be chasing coolant leaks in the engine from here on out. The only way I've gotten them to seal is by using RTV on the threads in the block. I did this with the engine out of the truck where I was able to screw the studs in and wipe all excess sealant off the deck before installing the gasket, then the heads.
.
I don't think advice based on poor installation is any recommendation for using or not using a product,.
Counter point, i,ve installed studs(the same set) on 2 engines with no problems with coolant migration,.
I think personally they are good insurance, and stand up better than head bolts, and give a far more even clamping force, TTY bolts are at best a guessing game,. and very dependant on quality control,.
There are plenty of "mods" and upgrades for the 6.5 diesel that are employed everyday, some are overkill for certain situations etc,. but all combine to make a stronger, more reliable motor.
JMHO,.
YRMV
Nick
The Clearwater heads employ overseas made castings.
Here is a tid bit of news though. Frito lay was buying these heads by the pallet load to replace high mile heads on their little "chip trucks"
The reports were very good from one of their shop forman.
I had about 50K miles on the last set when I sold the rig (94 Burb)
The folks that bought it still own it and have had zero issues with the engine.
The folks at clearwater claim that they do all the machining in their shops and in many cases use some reworked parts that come from the returned heads.
Clearwater sends a return sticker for you to return your cores.
I would without a second thought buy another set of their heads.
The fit and finish are just fine.
Now if you want to spend $1000 you can get a set of brand new AMG heads from GEP
If I were building a brand new engine with a new block I would go with the AMG heads if the $$$$ was not an issue.
The clearwater heads are a good way to go on a refresh, and I would certainly do that as opposed to spending $$$$ on the old used GM heads that already have cracks.
My worries about the old used heads is simple, you can pressure test them in the shop, but this is going to be at around 120 PSI on the bench.
On the engine, the pressures are 3 times that plus all the heat.
I tiny little crack may not leak at 120 PSI, but could definately seep at 360-420 PSI
Zero hour iron is by far better than stuff thats been down the road 15 years and 100,000 PLUSSSSSSSSS miles
As far as the studs go, no problemo.
Studs are good, just overkill in this app and will not likely add any benefit.
If your worried about a good install in the rig, its easy.
Set the heads on the deck allowing the dowel rings to hold them.
Place high temp silicone into the threads on the studs and install them into each hole.
You can double nut them to snug them up, themn remove the nuts.
Coolant migration is not a worry if you use the silicone on the threads.
My feeling is that for most applications, the standard Felpro TTY bolts work fine.
Just follow the torque pattern and do the 20 lb through, 55 pound through and then the 1/4 turn through the sequence.
Far too may 6.2 amd 6.5 enignes have run 200K miles or more without issue to toss rocks at the head bolts.
Just my thoughts.
Missy
phantom309
04-04-2012, 13:29
Place high temp silicone into the threads on the studs and install them into each hole.
You can double nut them to snug them up, themn remove the nuts.
don't think the studs will be in far enough ,.and as i explained before the studs have an allen head socket in the end,.you use an allen key to turn them down,.
My feeling is that for most applications, the standard Felpro TTY bolts work fine.
Far too may 6.2 amd 6.5 enignes have run 200K miles or more without issue to toss rocks at the head bolts.
Just my thoughts.
Missy
There's a lot of pmd,s that have gone 200ks, too,.
there's a lot of low flow water pumps, cooling fans, timing chains, rocker arm buttons,. and the list goes on,.but we always seem to upgrade stuff when its apart,.
for the $100.00 difference in price i think studs are a good investment,.
Nick
Getting prepared to start bolting the heads back on and got a few questions.
Do I need spray the head gaskets with copper cote ?
Do I need to put thread sealer on the new pre coated felpro head bolts ?.
When I removed the glow plug extension wires on the turbo side I damaged the insulation on one of them. Can I use heat shrink tubing to cover that area or will that hold up under the heat ?
Thanks
Do Not apply anything
to the gaskets or the bolts.
Make sure the bolt holes are clean and dry (run the proper tap through the holes if there is any doubt.
The Orange (or ??? color) dry silicone sealer on the threads of the bolts will lubricate them and seal them.
The Felpro gaskets have a built in sealer/coating and go on DRY
make sure the heads and the block are clean and oil free.
The little wire can probably be repaired with the shrink tube.
Be sure that the wires dont touch the metal guard tubes.
Missy
Just a FYI
If you have not done so already.
Having the rig jacked up a tad and the front wheels off allows great access through the inner fender opening that is normally covered by a rubber flap.
This allows easy access to the glow plugs and manifold bolts on both sides,
Also makes access to the turbo and other such stuff easy too.
Saves a lot on the busted knuckles and nasty words too :eek:
Missy
Also I am going to replace the glow plugs as well . I have been running AC 60 G plugs with no problems. Would that be the best or are there some out now that are better ?
Ok I am in the process of disassembling the heads for a thourough cleaning after the resurfacing and pressure test and stumbled when I saw this. I know that these heads are known for cracking between the valves which mine have and hence the reason for the pressure test. But is it normal for the cracks to extend over into the valve seats ????
On both heads which would have been cyl # 7 & 8 have the cracks extending to the valveseats and niether of which is where the head gasket blew which was cyl #2.
Is it still safe to use them ?
Thanks
Colud I have the machine shop do the liner procedure in the water passageways or do people still try that procedure ?
The 60G plugs are fine.
If you are not having any cold start issues with them, they are the best choice as they do not swell up if they fail.
The cracks between the valves does go down the valve seat.
The issue is always one of HOW DEEP IS THE CRACK ??
If the pressure test ok, then you are probably fine.
The cracks generally dont hurt much, unless the get deep enough to reach the little coolant passage that runs between the valves.
The early 6.2 engines had fairly large valves and the area between the seats was pretty narrow. This lead to major cracking issues and the valve sizes were reduced to keep more material in the "web"
The cracks are still common even in the later 6.5 heads.
I can't say how well the new AMG heads are holding up as they have not been around long enough with many well used sets available to look at.
The after market heads (clearwater) also have not been looked over that well after a lot of miles either.
Snap a piccy of the heads (cracks) and post it here.
A piccy will give a better idea of what things look like.
Missy
Do Not apply anything
to the gaskets or the bolts.
Make sure the bolt holes are clean and dry (run the proper tap through the holes if there is any doubt.
The Orange (or ??? color) dry silicone sealer on the threads of the bolts will lubricate them and seal them.
The Felpro gaskets have a built in sealer/coating and go on DRY
make sure the heads and the block are clean and oil free.
The little wire can probably be repaired with the shrink tube.
Be sure that the wires dont touch the metal guard tubes.
Missy
If you use a tap to clean the threads in the block-you must only use a worn out tap,taps remove material and make the threads deeper and harder to seal.
A thread chaser is the proper tool for cleaning threads.
Thanks Robyn,
I will try to get a picture up. I know I should probably get new heads but I am on a tight budget as is the usual case but if necessary I will.
I could not get the pictures to show up the cracks good enough so I did not post them.
I did take the heads back to the machine shop this morning and they are going to do the crack repair procedure and do a valve job and replace the exhaust valve guides.Hopefully that will have them set to go back on.
After 6 + months of waiting for either time , getting another set of heads, machine work ect . I finally finished today with the head gasket replacement.
I did end up having to get another set of heads and use the best one of those to go with the best one of mine and have machine work done on both . Also had the injectores rebuilt.
So far it runs great and am looking foward to getting it back on the road .
Thanks to all who replied and passed on information and tips.
Hey, I just had the same problem with my 03 2500 duramax. It blew the gasket on the passenger side. I'm having a shop do all the work. My question is at what point is it good to start pulling our large fifth wheel toy hauler (10,000 lbs)? Should I ask the shop to re-torque the head bolts after x amount of easy miles on the engine? I'm really nervous about using the truck hard again.
Thanks!!
DmaxMaverick
07-11-2012, 08:53
Hey, I just had the same problem with my 03 2500 duramax. It blew the gasket on the passenger side. I'm having a shop do all the work. My question is at what point is it good to start pulling our large fifth wheel toy hauler (10,000 lbs)? Should I ask the shop to re-torque the head bolts after x amount of easy miles on the engine? I'm really nervous about using the truck hard again.
Thanks!!
If they are using OEM head bolts, they DO NOT get retorqued. They are TTY (Torque to Yield). If they installed studs, they should be retorqued. The same applies to the 6.5 and 6.6.
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