Gooseneck Weight

[Dek Hawkins]

Hi, I have a 2500HD Dmax and want to tow a gooseneck horse trailer with LQ, not an enormouse length, just around 30ft.The spec in handbook says Max Trailer wt 12000lbs. (obviously loaded)
I have seen a trailer I like but listed weight is 14,000lbs + (unladen)

I have seen trailers larger than this behind trucks like mine.???

I am in England, so I cannot ask a trailer dealer, and I dont want to purchase a trailer, and ship it over to find I can not tow it with Truck.

Can anyone throw some light on the best way for me to proceed?
It is all confusing when we don't have goosenecks over here.
I intend to fly over to US and organize a trailer but need to know what type first.


Dek H

[DmaxMaverick]

The "12,000 limit" applies to the ball hitch receiver (bumper hitch). The limit of the gooseneck trailer is dependent on actual weight ratings. As long as you don't exceed axle and GVW ratings, you'll be fine. The 14K LQ should be manageable, but ball placement may be more critical if you have a heavier tongue weight (near/at max GAWR). Stock/horse trailers generally have an axle placement more rearward, which creates a greater difference between loaded and unloaded, compared to RV's.

[Dek Hawkins]

OK, in tech
Fifth wheel hitch rating : weight distibuting hitch rating is limited to 12,000lbs

Fifth wheel hitch tongue weight 15 % to 25% of hitch weight 2,500lbs max.

Sorry but I dont altogether understand all this, we dont have this info in England ???

:mad:
Dek

[DmaxMaverick]

This information applies to the TRUCK rating. Local laws (state, province, country, etc.) may be different, so verify with your local laws.

A "weight distributing hitch" ONLY applies to the rear, frame mounted "bumper" hitch receiver (the hitch below the tailgate). ONLY. The ratings for this, and 'in bed" type hitches are entirely different. They do not cross paths, with regard to the hitch methods/locations, themselves. The rating for the "bumper" hitch is dependent on the hitch hardware itself, and the 12K rating is according to the OEM installed hitch, alone. You can upgrade or downgrade this hardware. However, all other weight ratings still apply. For example, you could replace the OEM hitch with a 14K hitch, and be legal IF other weight ratings are not exceeded.

The same applies to gooseneck and 5th wheel ratings. Your "in bed" hitch ratings are dependent on the hardware rating. For example, if you have a 16K rated gooseneck or 5th wheel hitch installed, the maximum trailer weight will be 16K. Still, all other weight ratings must not be exceeded. If your trailer weighs 16K, and you do not exceed: the truck's GVWR (the total weight rating of the tow vehicle alone), the GAWR's (the rating of each axle), and the GCWR (the rating of the total weight of the tow vehicle and trailer(s) being towed), then it is legal.

GVWR = Gross Vehicle Weight Rating. The maximum weight the vehicle (tow vehicle alone) may weigh. The weight of both axles, combined.

GAWR = Gross Axle Weight Rating. The maximum weight that may be placed on each individual axle. Each axle is rated individually.

GCWR = Gross Combination Weight Rating. The maximum weight of the tow vehicle and trailer(s), combined.

The maximum trailer weight, according to the manufacturer's documentation IS NOT a declaration. It is ONLY a recommendation, according to a specific vehicle's other ratings, and is typically represented by the ratings of a base model, which is almost always different than an actual vehicle you may be using. They do this for marketing and baseline statements. Any original or aftermarket equipment added (including the hitch, fuel, passengers, dust, etc.) are not included in this claim. The ONLY way to determine your actual weight ability is to scale it. Anything short of getting the rig on the scale is only a guess.

[Dek Hawkins]

Wow thanks, even more than I expected.
From this I can have words with trailer people etc, its not simple is it???

Many Many thanks
Dek

[rustyk]

This is NOT the way it should be done :eek::

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv240/barth_upload/corey/IMAGE1_JPEG.jpg

http://i687.photobucket.com/albums/vv240/barth_upload/corey/IMAGE3_JPEG.jpg

[JohnC]

Needs air bags...

[Yukon6.2]

Or a bumper mounted trailer on the 5er,a heavy one would take a little weight off the tailgate of the S10:rolleyes:

[twaddle]

Hi Dek H,
I am originally from Scotland until almost 4 years ago and can remember the shady areas in the UK regulations of pulling trailers with the diesel Chevy's that I used to use in my business. Are you using the trailer to deliver or take horses to horse shows because I remember there used to be a hullabuloo over winning prize money which the law saw as being in the hire or reward area and anything 3500kg total vehicle (including trailer and contents) needed a tachograph and if the truck and trailer were over 8250kg a heavy goods drivers license was required. Also annual Plating (testing) of the trailer is probably required.
Is these areas that might be of any concern?
Just curious what you have to and have not to do to be able to use this size of trailer in the UK.

Good luck with your hunt for a trailer.

Jim

[DmaxMaverick]

Good point, Jim.

It's similar in the US, and perhaps Canada. Any vehicle or combination used for compensation is considered "commercial", or "for hire", if it is used to haul components of that compensation (such as horses to/from a rodeo or show). Many of the laws are so broad, that a status or trophy is considered "compensation", even when there is no money received for the efforts. It is rarely enforced, or observed, however. Hauling livestock for the purpose of pure recreation exempts these, in most situations.

[gimpyhauler]

DMaxMav,

Thank you for the details. It's never been explained in a manner I understood until now. Appreciate the helpful data.:)

[gimpyhauler]

Okay, here's my problem. I thought I understood towing capacities. Now I realize I still don't have a clue.

What I have:
GMC - 2007 SIERRA CLASSIC, 2500HD, 4WD, LB/CC SL1
LBZ - DURAMAX 6.6L V8 TURBO DIESEL
ENG - 360HP, 650LB-FT TORQUE
TRANSMISSION: ALLISON 1000 6-SPEED AUTO TRANS
B&W Gooseneck Hitch - reversible ball under bed

I need to buy a gooseneck flatbed trailer. To haul my maximums, how to determine the right trailer?

Here's what I know:
Actual GVW: 4,177

What I found online:
Trailering
Dead Weight Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs): 5000
Dead Weight Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs): 500
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs): 10500
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs): 1575
Fifth Wheel Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs): 10500
Fifth Wheel Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs): 2625

Weight Information
Gross Axle Wt Rating - Front (lbs): 4410
Gross Axle Wt Rating - Rear (lbs): 6084
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating Cap (lbs): 9200
Gross Combined Wt Rating (lbs): 16000

It turns out I'm totally lost. It makes it hard to look at used trailers and figure this all out for the first time.

So is it 16,000#, minus 4177# (actual VW), minus trailer weight (empty), then add weight to trailer to total 16,000 total weight of both vehicles with passengers.

[jamesm]

Okay, here's my problem. I thought I understood towing capacities. Now I realize I still don't have a clue.

What I have:
GMC - 2007 SIERRA CLASSIC, 2500HD, 4WD, LB/CC SL1
LBZ - DURAMAX 6.6L V8 TURBO DIESEL
ENG - 360HP, 650LB-FT TORQUE
TRANSMISSION: ALLISON 1000 6-SPEED AUTO TRANS
B&W Gooseneck Hitch - reversible ball under bed

I need to buy a gooseneck flatbed trailer. To haul my maximums, how to determine the right trailer?

Here's what I know:
Actual GVW: 4,177

What I found online:
Trailering
Dead Weight Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs): 5000
Dead Weight Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs): 500
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs): 10500
Wt Distributing Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs): 1575
Fifth Wheel Hitch - Max Trailer Wt. (lbs): 10500
Fifth Wheel Hitch - Max Tongue Wt. (lbs): 2625

Weight Information
Gross Axle Wt Rating - Front (lbs): 4410
Gross Axle Wt Rating - Rear (lbs): 6084
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating Cap (lbs): 9200
Gross Combined Wt Rating (lbs): 16000

It turns out I'm totally lost. It makes it hard to look at used trailers and figure this all out for the first time.

So is it 16,000#, minus 4177# (actual VW), minus trailer weight (empty), then add weight to trailer to total 16,000 total weight of both vehicles with passengers.

First off, your truck weighs almost 4177 KILOS, not pounds. You need to load up "normally" without the trailer and hit a scale (here we go to an "over the road" truck stop, with the big rigs "lorries") to get your real axle weights. Might cost a quid or three as it does here.

In my jurisdiction, I cannot be cited for a GVW rating violation (your 9200), only an AXLE violation (your 4410 or 6084). Note that on my Suburban, the rear axle rating is EXACTLY EQUAL to the placard rating of two LT245-75-16 load range "E" tires. In my case, the same axle was used on other dually trucks with 11k + rear ratings; the limitation for me is the tires (see http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Michelin&tireModel=LTX+M%2FS2&partnum=475R6LTXMS2OWL&vehicleSearch=false&fromCompare1=yes. and then the "specs" tab). The independent front is much weaker than the tires, so there the limitation is the hardware, not the Michelins (assuming one has same tires front and rear).

Let's say your scale data shows 3800 front, 3600 rear. Your passengers and non-trailer payload will be split in a ratio (defined by location and axle spacing) between the front and rear axles.

For the front you have a surplus of 610 pounds. This is useless to you with a hitch in the bed, as none of that load can be put on the front axle. With my bumper hitch and a distributing hitch I am able to put some trailer weight onto the front axle.

For the rear you have a surplus (available to the trailer) of 6084 - 3600 = 2484 pounds. Your jurisdiction will (may) require (or suggest) a "tongue" loading for a fifth-wheel or gooseneck trailer of 15-25%. Let's pick 25%. Your gross trailer weight (the number you get if you drop the trailer all by its lonesome on the scale) then should share 25% on the hitch, and 75% on the axles. Conversely, 2484 / 0.25 = 9936 pounds for the WHOLE TRAILER. The weight on the trailer axles is then 9936 - 2484 = 7452 pounds. If we happily pick 15% for tongue weight, we get the same 2484 / 0.15 = 16560 for the WHOLE TRAILER. The trailer axles/tires then need to be rated for 16560 - 2484 = 14076 pounds.

To attack from the other direction: the trailer is rated for 4500 + 4500 pounds. Legally let's now assume a 20% tongue weight. In that case, 4500 + 4500 = 9000 is equal to 100% - 20% = 80% of the total trailer weight. As it turns out, 9000 / 0.80 = 11250 TOTAL TRAILER WEIGHT. Furthermore, 11250 * 0.20 = 2250 pounds. Note that 9000 (trailer axles) + 2250 (tongue weight, placed upon tow vehicle) is magically equal to the 11250 total trailer weight.

No matter what, for safe towing (positive tongue weight), the total trailer weight will be GREATER than its combined axle/tire ratings. Not recognizing this can lead to great consternation and confusion.

If it were me, I'd track down a commercial officer (not the berg constable), and get the real story. When you ask them now, it's free. If they ask you later, it's 5GBP per kilo in question. ;)


PS As a side note, if it's legal for you to do so, upsizing to 265-75-16 in load range "E" will give the strongest normal tire available for our rigs: 3415 pounds per. You will have a speedo- and odometer error of about 4%, but an increase in capacity of 12%. For me, it's NOT LEGAL to claim this "extra" rear axle capacity, but it's nice to know I have "too much" tire for that legal axle load. In our particular family case, we can actually run up to 18k pounds Gross Combined Vehicle Weight (legal would be 20734), and have some climbs (or descents) that are over 2500 feet and 7% grade.

PPS If you care, you can probably upgrade your "dead weight" hitch numbers by replacing the hitch; mine is for 10000/1000 dead, and 12000/12000 distributing (may also be called "equalizing"). My particular factory unit was 5000/500 and 10000/1000. It was US$185 for the better unit.

PPPS I hope you don't have "P" (Passenger) tires and not "LT" (Light Truck) tires; otherwise all these big numbers are just empty pipe dreams to you, and you're probably overweight just with the empty truck.

[Grayfox]

FYI. This will help you do your homework

http://www.klenger.net/RV_General/Towing_Weights/index.html

[Grayfox]

FYI... some more info to digest.

http://fifthwheelst.com/towing.htm

[JohnC]

First off, your truck weighs almost 4177 KILOS, not pounds.


That can't be right. 4177 kilos is 10 lbs less than the max gross of 9200. When I first registered my '06 e-cab sb they told me it weighed something like 5600. My guess is the LB CC is still less than 6000.

Don't know about your area, but around here we have weigh stations that are only manned about 10 days a year, but they leave the scales on all the time. DIY weight for free!

[Dek Hawkins]

Hi Dek H,
I am originally from Scotland until almost 4 years ago and can remember the shady areas in the UK regulations of pulling trailers with the diesel Chevy's that I used to use in my business. Are you using the trailer to deliver or take horses to horse shows because I remember there used to be a hullabuloo over winning prize money which the law saw as being in the hire or reward area and anything 3500kg total vehicle (including trailer and contents) needed a tachograph and if the truck and trailer were over 8250kg a heavy goods drivers license was required. Also annual Plating (testing) of the trailer is probably required.
Is these areas that might be of any concern?
Just curious what you have to and have not to do to be able to use this size of trailer in the UK.

Good luck with your hunt for a trailer.

Jim


Hi Jim
I am wanting a trailer to partly use as a camper, hence the LQ quarters, but also for emergencies to take our Horses to Vets, or transport around.
I have asked VOSA on this subject and they are all a little unsure, BUT THEY WILL BE DAMN SURE IF I GET STOPPED AS USUAL.
Sorry I am lake replying everyone, many problems here !

Dek

[phantom309]

My 94 ext cab long box 4x4 weighs 6700lbs empty full of fuel. truck is rated for 8600lbs.
My 94 crew cab long box dually 2wd weighs 6540lbs full of fuel truck is rated for 10,000lbs,

I think guys are running the the 19.5 truck tires for more weight,.
you could run Michelin 445 super singles,. rated at 11,400lbs each,.:D

Nick