Hydrogen Generators

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Hydrogen Generators (http://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/hydrogen.htm)
Improving Diesel Fuel Economy
Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe, and hydrogen gas has been used here on Earth to augment diesel fuel for many years. Here's a hydrogen gas generator specifically developed for use as a motor fuel supplement that promises to both extend the driving range between fillups and increase average fuel economy.

[Mark Rinker]

Very interesting stuff. I have updated a nearly two year old thread on this topic. It started out as a discussion of propane fumigation in the 6.5L forum - but moves on to a discussion of onboard hydrogen generation.

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/forumdisplay.php?f=7

General concensus has been that 'Brown's Gas' generators are snake oil, and use more power (parasitic drag from the alternator) that they create in hydrogen released to burn by the engine. Obviously, this company is bringing a new product to market that says otherwise.

Like the MSD propane injection system, I am excited to see something built of quality componants, with digital cab controls and safeguards. (Not like the BBQ peice-part solutions for propane, or glass jars bouncing around in the truck, bubbling highly flammable Brown's Gas!!! :eek: )

I'd like to test this product over 50000+ towing miles, and qualify the results. I think my current dual alternator, 240amp system could handle a couple of these generators, running in parallel for peak loads.

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General concensus has been that 'Brown's Gas' generators are snake oil, and use more power (parasitic drag from the alternator) that they create in hydrogen released to burn by the engine. Obviously, this company is bringing a new product to market that says otherwise.

I know.... I've heard varying opinions, but I'd like to see some verifiable data to show what's real - that's why I closed the piece with a request for input from those who are running a hydrogen generator on their diesel.

That said, I sorta like the idea of a home/garage HHO generation system to create compressed hydrogen gas for use in an HHO hybrid - possibly as a way to overcome the shortcomings of the pure battery power. Questions I have about compressed hydrogen systems for a vehicle are mostly about the safety factors. Is compressed hydrogen any more dangerous than the propane bottles we all use with the BBQ or campers - or in your case to use as motor fuel supplement in a pickup?

Jim

[Mark Rinker]

I'm no en-gen-ear, but the storage VOLUME needed for this smart guys project looks daunting...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEdQR...eature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEdQRVQtffw&feature=related)

[npauli]

Come on, really?

So I'm an engineer, have degrees in math, physics, and engineering mechanics, and worked a few years in diesel engine development (now in powertrain controls). I'll admit I'm no expert in combustion science though.

I'd say it's a bunch of bunk.

The laws of thermodynamics (i.e. no perpetual motion machines, entropy increases, etc.) mean that you'll get a net loss of usable energy any time you take something through a complete cycle. In this case, the cycle is splitting water with electricity, then burning the mixture to make water again.

I'll admit though, it might still be possible to get a more efficient combustion cycle - even enough to offset the extra power draw. If such a thing is possible, it would have to be because the extra O2 and H2 in the intake change the details of combustion (timing, heat release rates, specific heats, etc.) in just the right way to make more torque for a given fuel rate. I would guess that we'd see something similar to advanced timing with more oxygen. Of course the OEM's can't do something like that from the factory or they'd never meet NOx limits.

Let's just pretend for a moment that such a thing is possible and that some genius figured out the right recipe in his garage and started to market it. Here's some questions to ponder:

1) How does the controls system react to changes in the gasses in the intake?
2) How do different generations of diesels, with different air systems, control systems, fuel systems, and aftertreatment respond to the changes in combustion?
3) How will my seals, oil, coolers, etc. respond to this new H2 in the environment?
4) What will my emissions be like now? I'd guess more Nox, unless the controls are smart enough to react.
5) How will the in-cylinder temps change? I'd guess temps would be higher, unless controls react.
6) How will the cylinder pressures change? I'd guess pressures would go up too, unless controls react.
7) How will this affect the life of my engine & components? How do you know? Evidence? Guarantee?

Some specific red flags that set off my hogwash detectors:
- "more complete burn" That's baloney. Emissions limits, even early ones mean that the vast majority of our fuel is already burned.
- "5-40% improvement in fuel economy" No way. There's no question that efficiency can be improved if you throw emissions limits out the window and tweak all the engine controls, but the benefit (if any) is going to be on the same order of magnitude as what you could do with a tune. What's that, maybe 5-10% if you've really tuned for the application?

Don't let me stop anybody from looking into it, or even trying something out. Just don't believe everything you read on the net - including me.

[Mark Rinker]

Thanks for weighing in on this topic. FWIW: A discussion with the guy that tested this product indicated lower EGTs.

I understand the hard science that says that there is no 'free lunch' here, but also know 1) the OEM Duramax (Ford, Dodge) platforms are not running optimized - and that 2) the product has been tested on a number of different light duty diesel truck applications, and mileage increases are reported to be both measureable and repeatable.

Unlike propane injection - where testers can initially get excited with additional power and diesel MPG (temporarily lost to the reality of burning two fuels (that must be purcha$ed) at different rates, and at costs/unit, this product should be much easier to quantify an ROI, even in a loosely controlled experiment...turn it on, mileage either decreases, increases, or stays the same.


Which leaves me at this nagging question/curiousity: Why would any reasonable person go to the expense of bringing a polished product to market that clearly had no ROI?


What are your thoughts on the following:


1) Is it plausable that the OEM alternator is inefficient at nominal OEM loads and RPMs, and requesting additional loads actually makes the diesel fuel burned to spin it better utilized, to some point of diminishing returns? How about dual alternators? Certainly there is a greater static loss spinning two vs one, and excess amperage capacity - that in this case is used to produce a fuel.

Isn't this similar to capturing exhaust heat with a turbo? We don't dispute the value of capturing that lost heat, converting it to compressed air, and the effect on volumetric efficiency...

This alternator scenario is the only theory that I can come up with. Otherwise the products CANNOT work.

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A typical diesel owner has a hard time seeing a fuel economy improvement in the "few" percent range after installing or using a product, tuning or fuel treatment - not enough fuel burned and too many variables change through time. When a fuel economy improvement is in the few percent range, it can usually be seen by fleet owners or when an individual owner runs a spreadsheet for a year or more that carefully tracks fuel economy. A diesel fuel treatment fits into this category, and I suspect a hydrogen generator would as well (if it works). The ROI is a big question though.

I think hydrogen is the only fuel developed so far that has the potential to compete with fossil fuel as a transportation fuel, when using wind/solar electricity to create it. I filled my truck's tank last evening... An HHO generator has appeal - if it works....