Timing Gear

[AllThumbs]

I can't find a source for a set of timing gears. TDP advertisers don't seem to be carrying them and I think worn timing chain is a problem with my engine. No sense putting chain back in.

Thanks for any help.

[john8662]

Replace your gear set as an assembly. The timing chain, crankshaft sprocket and the camshaft sprocket.

The timing gear sets are a thing of the past, these are no longer available as the source for these went out of business.

J

[AllThumbs]

Thanks John. Bummer:(

[PONTIACMAN]

Thanks John. Bummer:(

I believe they did away with the gear to gear setup because some wise men concluded the rough harmonics and vibration of the gears was contributing to those nasty block cracks.

if so your better off with the chain drive....


pontiakman;)

[DmaxMaverick]

Hogwash! There was, or is, no correlation between cam gears and block cracks. There are VERY few engines around with gears. Very few, which is probably the reason they are no longer available. There are, however, a lot of cracked blocks with timing chains.

Not much different than a Ford technician informing a customer that her speakers keep failing because her radio knobs are too tight, and because the knobs are not covered under warranty, they will not replace any more speakers under warranty (don't laugh, it happened).

As John said, the reason there are none to be found, is the last company to produce them closed their doors. For quite some time, availability depended on existing inventories. They've been out of business for several years now. It makes sense, though. The demand for them is small, and to produce them would demand a price too high for limited production runs. If the market supported the cost, there would be several producers. That's the way it works. They'll show up again, probably from somewhere overseas.

[PONTIACMAN]

Hogwash! There was, or is, no correlation between cam gears and block cracks. There are VERY few engines around with gears. Very few, which is probably the reason they are no longer available. There are, however, a lot of cracked blocks with timing chains.

Not much different than a Ford technician informing a customer that her speakers keep failing because her radio knobs are too tight, and because the knobs are not covered under warranty, they will not replace any more speakers under warranty (don't laugh, it happened).

As John said, the reason there are none to be found, is the last company to produce them closed their doors. For quite some time, availability depended on existing inventories. They've been out of business for several years now. It makes sense, though. The demand for them is small, and to produce them would demand a price too high for limited production runs. If the market supported the cost, there would be several producers. That's the way it works. They'll show up again, probably from somewhere overseas.


JUST GOOGLE :

WARNING gear drive timing

THEN


****PLEASE READ THE TOP POST ABOUT 6.5

Article after article on gears causing problems and how chains are better.

P:S

This has nothing to do about silly radio knob stories, or johns impression that there's no demand for them now, because anyone who ever walked into my shop insisted that their mini diesel had to have this romance item despite they were only driving 8 thousand miles a year.

People will buy unnecessary junk for their engines just threw advertising via magazine articles supporting the need for this trash.

If I wanted to mass produce a gear set or guaranteed bearing girdle for 6.5 and 6.2 i`d probably be a gazillionaire overnight ,but then id have to either close up and move to another country and hide my proceeds in offshore accounts when all this crap proved useless.

The real problem is the block is weak ,no matter how much ya wanna dream that its up there in quality with the locomotive diesels.

Obviously its still a weak block even in its new improved form because if ya read threw the sight some dude just bought a AMG engine complete with moly alloyed into the cast and thicker iron here and there, and less then a year later the thing is cracked all over the place. DONT TRUST ME DO A SEARCH right here on the forum and you'll find it.

Now he`s going to swap in a cummins.

The other day somebody "maybe you" commented that 6,5-6.2`s dont suffer instant catastrophic failure.

Well what the heck kinda failure describes pulling the crest of the hill letting off and having the crankshaft blow out the bottom????

If that's considered minor id hate to see major ...

I just love that because i post the truth about major weaknesses some laugh or wanna make me out to be an idiot while some think its pretty cool to have a diesel known to run around with cracks all throughout the lower end just waiting to fail at ANY TIME...

BTW: I have a automotive shop which i now have somebody else running as im getting to old and decrepit.

When i retired i joined a lawn service forum to help explain problems in the mechanical repair section... When i would post an answer to a problem 90 percent of the time i could get owners equiptment running over the net and got 20 pm messages per month thanks , thanks , thanks so on and so forth. They thre my screen name out over there and just called me the man.:)

One day somebody was trying to sell another member on the bright idea of changing his fleet over to 6.5 powered chevys.

Well i put my 2 cents in about the common electrical problems, broken cranks, blocks cracks webs and rear cyl wall and nobody could believe it because it was a magical diesel, and has to last a gazzilion miles because granps grandpa told them so.originally they were built to burn otherwise garbage from coal dust to peanut oil when no real fuel was around...

Then later diesel was cheaper to refine so commercial equiptment took advantage of the lower $$ by useing diesels

Just because the 6.2-6,5 is a diesel doesn't mean its like any other diesel which is generally overbuilt by a factor of 2 to deal with what i call controlled detonation on every power stroke.

To me the fuel is injected ,and explodes more then i would say burns and that's why diesels clack rap and clank away from day 1.

To survive they must be built heavier and if not built heavier they will fail early on...Either that or they should have added more tin into the alloy mix with nickel as the tin would have allowed this twist in the wind block to do so by allowing more wiggle room as the engine flexes which im sure it does a lot.

Anyway i am not new or inexperienced with these diesel as i had many destroyed blocks and cranks on my shop floor over the years but for some you can jam the owners face into the block letting them peep threw the cracks and they'll make every excuse why this is still the greatest engine and it must have been a fluke.

Whats the failure rate here compared to the cummins or duramax????

Gotta be 30 X`s the problems so its not just because their being under a microscope its a real legitimate problem.

pontiac man

Ignorance is bliss as they say!!!!

OHH BY THE WAY: ANYONE INSISTING THE NEED FOR ROMANTIC ITEM GEAR DRIVE I AM PRETTY SURE MY SUPPLY HOUSE STILL HAS A BOX FULL OF THEM WHICH I BELIEVE HE PURCHASED FROM KENNEDY YEARS AGO. i CAN CHECK IF YOU REALLY NEED IT but he gets like 4 bills do to supply and demand .

Thanks for your time...

:DPONTIAKMAN:D
+

[JohnC]

JUST GOOGLE :

WARNING gear drive timing

THEN


****PLEASE READ THE TOP POST ABOUT 6.5



I smell steak sauce...

Q. - How many miles arte on the Power Project truck with timing gears and 300 hp?

[PONTIACMAN]

I smell steak sauce...

Q. - How many miles arte on the Power Project truck with timing gears and 300 hp?

I was told the 6.5 did suffer some failure during the loaded hill climb test.

Regardless id like to access those sites

Anytime Ive tried accessing the site on the hill climb i get a message that i need a password and something else.

Do ya gotta pay money to access these stories and sites???

Any info appreciated as i would like to see how close they got compared to the duramax,,power-stroke, and Cummings.....

As to the gear drive i think they used these originally for getting the boat engine cam phased right for reverse operation.

Also in my day Ive seen the idler gears loose bearings which jammed up the cam plus filling the oil with a teaspoon of shavings for the rest of the bearings, but regardless like anything else they / the cam drives/ have a certain percentage of failure

:Dpontiakman:D

[john8662]

It isn't exactly Heinz 57, something a little different, maybe in a square bottle...

Pontiacman, what 6.2 or 6.5 do you currently own and drive?

I'm beginning to think that the rumor mill is alive a well, without any first hand experience.

Any to answer your question, the main site is a member site, you must be a subscribing (as is member dues) member, not a troll to view published articles.

[Robyn]

I view the custom timing gear sets that WERE available for the 6.2/6.5 was a super upgrade.

I have seen engines with this added to the list of goodies and it is definately a PLUS.

There is absolutely no negative feedback on the gear drives.

I will not spend my $$$$ on one simply because for what I do with my engines it does not give me enough in payback to warrant the capitol outlay.

A fresh chain is all I usually install in a six and half when I do a rebuild.

The sprockets last really well and a fresh chain is enough.

Now if I were building a 6.5 that had a Time and materials budgit, being
bankrolled by deep pockets, You betcha Red Rider, there would be a gear drive in the sucker along with a forged steel crank and a buttload of other goodies too :D

No sense in calling smack down on gear drives for the 6.5, they have proven themselves many times over to be a worthy addition.

We used to run the gear drives on all of our BBC race engines in the drag boats.

The last one I installed ran a Bazzzzzillion seaons on a 427 incher that was regularly spun up into the land of 9000 rpm :eek:

You aint lived until you sit in the command chair of an 18 foot flat bottom with a Big Chevy screaming only inches from your backside.

You stomp the loud pedal and the beast roars, then it screams, then it howls and you glance briefly at the tach as it sails past 5000 then 6000 then 7000 and on up to around 9000 RPM and if the screw grabs some air, OMG 10000 is not out of the question.

I have seen the tell tale on the tach stuck at 10 and some change, more than once.

OMG, you wonder what keeps the little beast in one piece rolling over at those Gawd aweful RPM's

What is more nerve racking is the sound of the bloody blower sitting up on top of the thing, howling at 20% over crank speed :eek:

That gilmer drive belt will tear things a new A$$ Hole if it comes apart.

The thing has a steel cord inside and at 10K it can do a lot of damage if it starts flogging about.

Now, after all the wonderful reminiscing, I never once had even one issue with a cam gear drive setup, NOT EVEN ONCE.

So, to some it up, to worry about a gear drive on a little 6.5 that never turns over 3500 RPM is obsurd.

Damned things will live forever at that speed.

As far as vibrations carried into the cam, Nope, not gonna happen. If the rotating assembly has been ballanced that engine will be smoother than a little babbies BUTT.

Sorry to be so much of a BEOTCH on this subject, but been doing this stuff for far too long.

Now, if ya buy some cheapy geardrive thats not well made, then its like anything else, Ya gets what ya pays for.

OH , just a thought, at 10000 RPM the pistons change directions over 300 times a second

RPM= 10000
Piston changes direction twice per Revolution
Thats 20000 times a minute / 60 seconds in a minute = 333.3333 changes in direction.

Now with that is that nasty old con rod hanging onto that piston too :eek:

This is one Helluva lot of stuff thashing about inside that engine.

Now this aint no little Rice grinder, this is a 427 chevy Big block (Rat Motor)

WE did back the RPM's down some on the big inchers we ran in later years.

The 482's and the 503's were limited to about 7500 RPM due to the much longer strokes. ( yes 503, that was a stroked 454)

7500 was pushing the strokers for sure.

The 427's would spin soooooooooooo nice.

With stuff like this happening, I am not going to worry about a stinking gear drive.

RANT OFF ;)

Missy

[PONTIACMAN]

It isn't exactly Heinz 57, something a little different, maybe in a square bottle...

Pontiacman, what 6.2 or 6.5 do you currently own and drive?

I'm beginning to think that the rumor mill is alive a well, without any first hand experience.

Any to answer your question, the main site is a member site, you must be a subscribing (as is member dues) member, not a troll to view published articles.

1..I had a 6.2 back in the 80-`s and it was a total headache that got traded back in when it couldn't do half the job my tradesman 200 powered by a 318 could do.

It was required to deliver bakery goods 12 hours per night but ran hot ,had zero power and volkswagens would pass me empty while driving home up the few hills before my residence.Also cooked rockers and anything else under thew hood.

I guess there's a reason they try dual thermostats new piping and wiz bang solutions to get the temperature down 5 degrees.

About being a troll:

What specifically did i say that was NOT TRUE????

1..Main web cracks in the girdles that are supposed to retain the crank

2.Rear cylinder wall cracks because there's no meat to support the bolt torque....

3.broken cranks due to main caps falling into the pan???

4.Zero power unless 120 horse and 200 ft pound is considered powerfull and massively torquay

5.Blown head gaskets

6.Thin deck surfaces that allow the gaskets to dance when the turbo kicks in.

7.engine that runs hot because there's not enough meat to absorb the heat correctly

8.Numerous electrical problems when diesels are supposed to be the simpler of the internal combustion engines.

Please advise what i said that WAS NOT TRUE.
I think i get it and the idea is to agree with certain people and keep your computer mouth shut to protect the engines terrible image.

Yes please find the time to express where i said something false and i can either show you photos taken in my shop showing cracks everywhere its already been discussed in these weak blockss, including caps laying on the floor and big heavy peaces that i assumed were parts of a crank with mangled rods and pistons still attached.


Coffee Time gotta wake up my brain .

Troller who only posts 10 times since joining 3 months ago and doesn't jump around making problems in every thread.

Forget facts or truth right and make believe the earth is flat i guess.

I guess just stating a point of view not exactly as the group wants makes or labels one a troll er .:confused:


I always liked telling people how it is and not dupe them while others can see the same thing and still steer others into believeing everything is straight up and alright.

Then again i wouldnt forsee having any more block problems if i was filling my latest with raceing cement /expoxy

Thats not gonna do didly holding the main registers intact or keeping the crank in place come race day....

Thanks for the mutual respect!!!!!

:rolleyes:pontiak:rolleyes:

[More Power]

Our (DSG gear drive equipped) 6.5TD Power Project accumulated 250,000 miles over 6 years before the truck was driven to its new home. The valve covers and oil pan were never removed during all those miles.

We don't sell gear drives (we've never sold anything for your truck).... And, the gear drive is no longer available from anyone. Yet... I believe it was one of the best upgrades to be offered for the 6.2/6.5. Bad dampers, bad pulleys, bad flywheels, and/or insufficient block/crank design cause crank failures. Not gear drives..... ;)

Read more here...
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=34644

[Subzilla]

DSG gear drive on my Suburban for the last 100k miles.

And I think most people on this board give you nothing but the facts. Not much BS or fiction shared around here unless it gets political - which it does occassionaly. Which is why I have always enjoyed this board over lots of others. You ask a question here, you get a mature, legitimate answer and you don't get crucified for asking a "stupid question".

[trbankii]

1..I had a 6.2 back in the 80-`s and it was a total headache that got traded back in when it couldn't do half the job my tradesman 200 powered by a 318 could do.

No offense, but I think I'll stick with the advice of the people here who have been driving and working on the 6.2s and 6.5s for the past thirty years than someone who had one experience with one twenty-five years ago.

[another satisfied timing gear user]

[suburbanK-2500HD]

Hmmm

Dont like it ? Dont eat it !

We have a lot of 6.2 and 6.5 diesel critters here in Norway, and i can say that where i live i know a lot of pepole hwo drive these babies, and i can say they dont have that many issues compared to other kind of cars/trucks.

All engines can be destroyed easily, a lot of the engines life depends on the user i say... :)


If one dislike the Chevy diesel a lot, "dig a hole in the ground and dump it in, maybe something better pops up". And go get a bicycle..

" i am not angry, but all engines, cars, truck, nomatter the brand, have issues. some more than others. i work at a car dealer and we get a lot of used cars in different brands, i wont say what is the looser, but i think that we, the Chevy owners don have to worry that mutch.
Take care of it and drive it with respect, and it will treat you goooood..




JUST GOOGLE :

WARNING gear drive timing

THEN


****PLEASE READ THE TOP POST ABOUT 6.5

Article after article on gears causing problems and how chains are better.

P:S

This has nothing to do about silly radio knob stories, or johns impression that there's no demand for them now, because anyone who ever walked into my shop insisted that their mini diesel had to have this romance item despite they were only driving 8 thousand miles a year.

People will buy unnecessary junk for their engines just threw advertising via magazine articles supporting the need for this trash.

If I wanted to mass produce a gear set or guaranteed bearing girdle for 6.5 and 6.2 i`d probably be a gazillionaire overnight ,but then id have to either close up and move to another country and hide my proceeds in offshore accounts when all this crap proved useless.

The real problem is the block is weak ,no matter how much ya wanna dream that its up there in quality with the locomotive diesels.

Obviously its still a weak block even in its new improved form because if ya read threw the sight some dude just bought a AMG engine complete with moly alloyed into the cast and thicker iron here and there, and less then a year later the thing is cracked all over the place. DONT TRUST ME DO A SEARCH right here on the forum and you'll find it.

Now he`s going to swap in a cummins.

The other day somebody "maybe you" commented that 6,5-6.2`s dont suffer instant catastrophic failure.

Well what the heck kinda failure describes pulling the crest of the hill letting off and having the crankshaft blow out the bottom????

If that's considered minor id hate to see major ...

I just love that because i post the truth about major weaknesses some laugh or wanna make me out to be an idiot while some think its pretty cool to have a diesel known to run around with cracks all throughout the lower end just waiting to fail at ANY TIME...

BTW: I have a automotive shop which i now have somebody else running as im getting to old and decrepit.

When i retired i joined a lawn service forum to help explain problems in the mechanical repair section... When i would post an answer to a problem 90 percent of the time i could get owners equiptment running over the net and got 20 pm messages per month thanks , thanks , thanks so on and so forth. They thre my screen name out over there and just called me the man.:)

One day somebody was trying to sell another member on the bright idea of changing his fleet over to 6.5 powered chevys.

Well i put my 2 cents in about the common electrical problems, broken cranks, blocks cracks webs and rear cyl wall and nobody could believe it because it was a magical diesel, and has to last a gazzilion miles because granps grandpa told them so.originally they were built to burn otherwise garbage from coal dust to peanut oil when no real fuel was around...

Then later diesel was cheaper to refine so commercial equiptment took advantage of the lower $$ by useing diesels

Just because the 6.2-6,5 is a diesel doesn't mean its like any other diesel which is generally overbuilt by a factor of 2 to deal with what i call controlled detonation on every power stroke.

To me the fuel is injected ,and explodes more then i would say burns and that's why diesels clack rap and clank away from day 1.

To survive they must be built heavier and if not built heavier they will fail early on...Either that or they should have added more tin into the alloy mix with nickel as the tin would have allowed this twist in the wind block to do so by allowing more wiggle room as the engine flexes which im sure it does a lot.

Anyway i am not new or inexperienced with these diesel as i had many destroyed blocks and cranks on my shop floor over the years but for some you can jam the owners face into the block letting them peep threw the cracks and they'll make every excuse why this is still the greatest engine and it must have been a fluke.

Whats the failure rate here compared to the cummins or duramax????

Gotta be 30 X`s the problems so its not just because their being under a microscope its a real legitimate problem.

pontiac man

Ignorance is bliss as they say!!!!

OHH BY THE WAY: ANYONE INSISTING THE NEED FOR ROMANTIC ITEM GEAR DRIVE I AM PRETTY SURE MY SUPPLY HOUSE STILL HAS A BOX FULL OF THEM WHICH I BELIEVE HE PURCHASED FROM KENNEDY YEARS AGO. i CAN CHECK IF YOU REALLY NEED IT but he gets like 4 bills do to supply and demand .

Thanks for your time...

:DPONTIAKMAN:D
+

[PONTIACMAN]

No offense, but I think I'll stick with the advice of the people here who have been driving and working on the 6.2s and 6.5s for the past thirty years than someone who had one experience with one twenty-five years ago.

[another satisfied timing gear user]

IVE BEEN WORKING AND FIXING THESE THINGS FOR 20 YEARS IN A CERTIFIED SHOP.

obviously you didnt take the time to read my posts so now your just making silly conclusions based on nothing.

Robin herself admits to seeing cranks broke and cylinder walls cracked so what did i say different from what she said????

This is the only engine ive ever seen where most cores are cracked and there cracked in a very important area.NAMELY where the crank is attached.

So does everyone here complaining about my opinion in denial about these cracks which are all over the block????

I guess its of little relevance that the starter rips out the bolts and mounting boss...

And is this guy along with everyone else having problems nuts like me??

Follow the yellow brick road and search google for :

WARNING GEAR DRIVE TIMING.

Did this guy who has nothing to gain just make this stuff up???

What would be the motivation????

And if ya got lucky with a 6.5 that went 200,000 miles great for you.

Many gas engines make it to 500,000 miles nowadays so 200 thou doesn't impress me at all.

There's definitely a romantic love for these so enjoy the expense of changing motors ,PMD`s and lift pumps along with injectors that are worth more then the truck...

And im still interested what i lied about especially when robin constantly brought up the main web cracking and tried to run a business fixing such cracks.

I know my gas engine cost 15 bucks to tune requiring plug changes every 100,000 miles while yall spend thousands throwing parts at a diesel nobody here seems to understand but still make excuses for.

GOOD DAY

PONTIAKMAN

I`ve had every engine produced in my repair shop and other then the 6.5 and 6.2 i had never seen cracks in the main registers but that's not important.

[85-m1028]

Is there some sort of light duty diesel alternative out there that we are all missing out on? Even the toyota diesels had their issues, it just sucks that the light duty diesel market was really never that big in america.

If I took a volkswagon tdi and chopped it up to make a limosine out of it, only to bitch when it overheats and the head cracks. If you know the limitations then you do alright, but that requires knowledge and reasonability.

For example the starter bolts usualy crack the boss when the rear starter support bracket was not installed. Again a little knowledge and reason would go a long way.

30yrs of military use of this engine have made it abundant and cheap, what more could you ask for? As a torquey fuel sippin 4x4 power plant it works well!

[john8662]

Pontiac,

Thanks a lot of making a thread about whether a gear drive was available into a thead abow how you don't like the 6.2 or 6.5.

Wrong place, and I personally don't appreciate your attempts to start a riot.

This forum and others exist to help those that OWN (not including you obviously) GM Diesel engines keep their rigs rolling, regardless of any engineering shortcomings the platform may have.

Further posts on your behalf will be moderated.

[trbankii]

IVE BEEN WORKING AND FIXING THESE THINGS FOR 20 YEARS IN A CERTIFIED SHOP.

obviously you didnt take the time to read my posts so now your just making silly conclusions based on nothing.

John had asked specifically what experience you had with with 6.2/6.5 and your reply to his question was about owning one 6.2 back in the 80s for a short period of time. That is what I based my "silly" conclusions on.

[gmenor]

Allthumbs,
I believe I still have my old timimng chain and sprockets that had 118k miles on it before I installed the DSG gears. A certified mechanic friend told me that there was nothing wrong with it when I pulled it. I know it is somewhere in my shed - but I will not be back home till this Saturday. If I find it you want it you can have it.

[AllThumbs]

Now didn't that start a little dust up? Here I was just trying to find a gear to install. There is a reason for this enquiry and I will get to it in a bit. Currently I'm on the road with extremely limited access to a computer so can't really go into detail.

As of right now, my power plant has 238,000 on it and as far as I know, it has never been cracked. I am thinking, it is time to take a look at the timing gear (in whatever form), harmonic damper, radiator ect. It just sounded like a good idea to try the gear as long as I was in the neighborhood.

Thanks everyone for chiming in. As soon as I get home to Minnesota from Virginia, I will give a detailed report of the project I am contemplating and will need considerable advice on.

[chevytuff]

The yellow brick road you (Pontiacman) keep referring to is a Site that advertises a Water/Meth Injection system. He says that all of the problems with the 6.5 can be fixed with his Watermeth injection system. He has warnings about every upgrade you can do to the 6.5 and says his solution cures everything. Typical advertising ploy.

I am not debating the merits of either system.

To the Original Poster I had one on my 1995 and Built a new motor for it right before it was stolen (back in 08) due to a loss of compression. (There were holes blown in the pistons on #7 and #8). The motor had a gear drive for about 70,000 miles and was put in to the new motor. I got my hands on a Pete Jackson Gear drive (They made them for DSG) before they stopped production and have put it in my new motor that I am building for my 85. If you can get one run it if you cant a chain will do fine. No problem with either one of them.

[AllThumbs]

Thanks chevytuff,

I'm sure chains are available all over the planet so that should not be a problem.

[dgrund61]

Although, pontiacman may have some valid points,I probably like others on this forum, can not afford a duramax or powerstroke, even when they have 200,000 miles on them.Yes , construction wise they are way better built, but as mentioned in this forum parts are relatively cheap and is fairly easy to work on.I have tired to make mine as trouble free as possible,i.e. bosch glowplugs,moving the pmd to the bumper, synthetic oil,etc. and right now I still have spent less than in parts and cost of truck, than a duramax.As was mentioned earlier, this is a place for us help each other keep the 6.5 running.I respect his opinion, but as for me I will keep pluggin away with my 6.5 unless I win the lottery.

[AllThumbs]

gdrun61,

I'm in the same boat. First of all, I hate to see something go the junk yard because it isn't the latest and greatest. To me, my 6.5 has great utility value in that it gets the job done for me. It needs to be better, and it has some issues, but I think they can be solved and a whole lot cheaper than going the Duramax route (or another brand :eek:).