Which Brackets - Gas to 6.5 Turbo Conversion

[mkholmes]

I have a '73 Chevy 3/4 ton Suburban (my baby - Big Bertha).

It had a 350 Gasoline engine and I recently purchased a used 'non-electronic' 6.5 fuel injected/turbo 'drop in' unit (supposed to have all brackets and such) or so I was told.

However, I've had to purchase EVERYTHING (all brackets and such). And to make matters worse, I am 100% diesel illiterate. I am an old Gasoline ASE certified mechanic and always wanted to learn diesels - but not like this.

Anyway, I've purchased the Alternator and Power Steering brackets from the dealer and all 'normal parts' (ie. Alternator, Power Steering Pump, Water Pump, Starter, etc...)

Now the rub... the alternator and power steering brackets don't 'appear' to fit. I've looked for hours on the net (and a while here) looking for pictures and/or advice. But have not found ANYTHING for an idiot like me - yet...

I have found some 'obscure' pictures, but some show the alternator on the left side and other show it on the right. I even purchased the 3 books on the 6.5 motor, but there are no pictures and/or information regarding anything related to this question.

To show how green I am - I've been asked a couple of times - hydro-boost or air pump. I've been saying air pump, but the reality is... I really have no idea. But... I've already removed the gas engine and will be putting in the diesel today (it is already after midnight now) - brackets or not.

Any help would definitely be appreciated.

Michael
mkh001@mkholmes.com

[Pelado]

There are at least three models of accesory drive belt pulley system that I'm aware of.
1- V-belts
2- Serpentine belts pre-96
3- Serpentinbe belts post96
So you have to be carefull when you buy brackets that all of them are for a truck of the same year.
The main difference between 2 and 3 is the Alternator and A/C compressor location.
All of these diesel trucks came with Hydraboost system for the brakes, and the serpentine belt systems with a vacuum pump, that is not necessary unless you use the EFI Injection Pump that uses vacuum for the turbo wastegate actutator or you may still need vaccum for the heater, a/c, vent controls in your 73.

If that AIR pump they ask you, is the Air Injection Reaction system I've never seen a 6.2 or a 6.5 with such emission control system.
So don't worry, the counter guy knows less than you.

There's no diesel secrets with the drive belts system, they are located in different places but If you put together a 350 gasser belt system, you know how to do it with a 6.5.

Best thing is to go and look for a diesel truck in a junkyard, take pictures, buy what you need/all from it.

[Robyn]

Hello and welcome to TDP

The best choice for your application would be the 92-95 serp drive setup.

**You must use the water pump and fan for an engine with the serp drive 92-95 with this setup** MUST USE
Using a V belt water pump and fan will cause great amounts of grief as they turn the opposite direction

On your older truck you will need to reroute the wiring for the alternator and change the plug to the newer style

The brackets include the casting pieces that bolt to the engine as well as some fabricated pieces.

Getting this off a wreck is the best bet as you can get all the parts.

Use the accessories that come with the brackets as well as all the bolts.

This assures you of having everything you need.

This setup will fit ANY 6.2/6.5 engine.

Here is a piccy of a complete serp setup that I had on a 6.2 with a Banks turbo kit.

Some serp drives used a vacuum pump and some did not. Either way your good to go.

Stay away from the V belt stuff. It was a mess when new and even worse when used.

If you have the AC, use a hose setup from the 89-91 Burb with a gasser (350) these will fit right onto the pancake AC pump and the hoses fit where they need to on the older trucks.

The later serp drives with the AC pump on the LH side use hoses that are a lot different and likely will not fit the older trucks.

Missy

[mkholmes]

Wow. What a 'learning curve'.

And - what a mess (at least until I get everything working).

It 'appears' not to be that difficult to accomplish - when you know the nuances.

As far as counter personnel - So, I asked the dealer... "a 6.5 turbo diesel is a 6.5 turbo diesel - regardless of year, right?" And the counter person (at the dealer) said "oh yeah - they're all the same." Yeah right. So, I purchased late model brackets and parts (needless to say they're all obsolete and/or special order) and my unit is a '95. Naturally, nothing fit.

So, I'm now attempting to get the correct pieces. I've checked all the salvage yards in the vicinity and non of them have this unit (no parts unit available). I've also checked craig's list and nothing yet...

I 'believe' the only piece I am having difficulty acquiring is the power steering pulley. But I'm certain one will ultimately show up. A/C is not an issue as I'm installing 'overheads' and not using the one on the engine.

Another question I have (if its ok) is... the turbo unit bolts to the exhaust, but there is another (what appears to be) exhaust pipe pointed out the back-bottom. I'm not certain where this goes. Also, someone told me about an 'after cooler' for the turbo unit. But it 'appears' mine doesn't use one.

Naturally, I still have a way to go. However, failure (of a successful install) is not an option. I'm really surprised that with all the information on the net and publications - there is no real information regarding the two different models (and their differences). Also, the books I purchased are for the later model. I don't see anything for the earlier model.

Another thing I encountered is that it also 'appears' the earlier unit is better than the newer? Of course, if this is a fact - at least there's one 'silver lining' in the midst of the mess. However, if this is incorrect - please let me know... Not that I will change my mind, but at least 'knowing is half the battle'.

Finally, I really appreciate the feedback. It was definitely a life saver.

Thanks again,
Michael Holmes
mkh001@mkholmes.com

[mkholmes]

Oops... Forgot to ask. I'd like to keep the vacuum brake booster, but am not certain a 'vacuum pump' will pull enough vacuum to work it.

Does anyone know and/or have a better option (other than the Hydraboost)?

I don't need vacuum for anything else.

Also, I'm using the 'serpentine' belt system and an electric cooling fan. I have the biggest momma of a radiator you can buy and a monster of a fan, so I don't believe cooling will be an issue (unless I'm missing something). I also use an 100% external oil cooler as well as trans cooler. The transmission is a 'non-electronic' 700-R4. So, the system is 100% (engine, trans, fuel injection, etc...) non-electronic.

Oh yeah... I'm also interested in the 'dual alternator' setup, but the dealer says all pieces are 'no longer available'. Any advice?

Thanks again for your help.
Michael

[Pelado]

To be fair with the parts guy, all three belt drive systems can be mounted in any year engine, just they bolt in different places and take a different water pump, you can't mix and match parts from different years.

Check with Jamie Avant on Diesel Depot, (you can google him) he usually have those parts. I had to buy the a/c p/s bracket and pulley due to a collision damage. If you have a '95 it should have used the system in the picture posted by Robyn.

I don't know of a better option than hydraboost. If you want to keep vacuum assisted brakes you will need a vacuum pump from an old Caddy or something like that, the engine vacuum pump is not big enough for the power brakes.

6.5s are single turbo engines and you have two bank of cylinders, so the right exhaust manifold has an output flange (the one that points up) for feeding the turbo and an input pipe (the one that points down) for the crossover pipe that brings the exhaust fumes from the right bank of cylinders.

6.5 turbodiesels were not equipped with any kind of aftercooler from factory, is an aftermarket mod for power and efficiency.

Earlier engine blocks (pre 97) are stronger than later blocks that are more prone to valley web cracking due to the piston oil squirters that appeared in 97.

Good Luck

[mkholmes]

Thanks Pelado...

You know the old saying about 'old dogs' and 'new tricks'. :rolleyes:

I guess I'll just have to 'bite the bullet' and work on the Hydraboost.

Thanks for the 'heads up' regarding Diesel Depot. I'll have to look them up and see what they have.

As far as the brackets, the jury is still out regarding this one. Seemed that no matter how I turned and tried - they definitely would not fit. I'll just 'chalk it up' to the water pump. Fortunately, I've gotten past that one.

As far as the turbo... A 'passer by' indicated that I can increase the performance of the turbo by adding a 'cross-over' from the other exhaust manifold bank to get more 'umph' to the 'output flange' by using both exhaust banks. Any ideas?

I believe Robyn's pic was a 6.2. The 'turbo setup' was definitely different than mine. But it was definitely great to get a 'good look' at an actual unit as I couldn't find a good 'clean picture' of a full setup anywhere.

Have you used an aftercooler and if so, would it be a good 'upgrade' to my unit (get significant results)?

Thanks again for the info. There is no doubt it will help me considerably.

As always,
Michael

[Robyn]

The system in the piccy I posted is a Gale Banks setup.
This system was introduced in the mid 80's.

The Banks system was actually better and produced more power than the factory setup that followed a few years later.

Banks mounted the turbo farther forward to clear the AC unit on the earlier model trucks. 82-91 in the Blazers and Burbs and up to 87 in the pickups and 82-91 in the crew cabs.

All the exhaust flows through the turbo.

The exhaust from the LH side crosses over to the RH side and then through the turbo and on out.

All exhaust always feeds through the turbo.

The bracket sets must be used within the year groupings 92-95 use the same pattern and the 96 and later use their own setup

I have never seen one with a dual alternator so I can't comment on that.

All the serp drives can use the same water pump. There was a couple changes though.

92-95 used a standard volume pump and then in 96-97 they went to a high volume pump and in about 99 a pump with a screw on fan hub was used.

For most applications the standard pump works fine. I have only seen one pump with a screw on fan hub and that was at a parts store.

Just remember not to get a 6.2 water pump as they rotate opposite that of a serp drive pump.

The pumps all look very similar and can be mixed up. The only real outward difference is that the fan hub bolt pattern is different.

Inside, the impeller is different to allow for the different rotation.

Good luck and be sure and post some Pix of your rig.

Missy

[mkholmes]

Hola Missy,

Thank you for the update. I may have caused myself a problem already that I'll have to look into.

I purchased a pump - it is supposed to be a '98 pump (what I requested) and have already installed it.

If I remove the pump and look at the impeller, what would I be looking for? However, if it is possible to inspect the 'bolt pattern' - how would I know if I have the one that is rotating in the correct/wrong direction? I guess it would be prudent to ask - what direction does the engine actually rotate?

Also, when you indicate that the 'Banks Turbo' you have has a 'cross-over' from the opposite side - what did you use and/or how did you do it? I have to 'assume' this means you are using both sides at once. Is it possible to see this set up in the pic you provided or could you 'show' me one that does show it clearly? While I'm asking - what do you know about the 'after-cooler' option?

As far as pics - yep, once I get the motor actually up and running - I'll definitely post. Old Bertha is absolutely unique. I get comments often about her. You wouldn't believe the number of people that have tried to buy her from me. Once you see her, you'll probably wonder why. But like I said originally - she's my girl. I figure she'll be with me until my time is up. :cool:

Michael

[DmaxMaverick]

The water pump you have is fine. Any serpentine belt pump will rotate in the correct direction on a serp setup. Your pump should be the "high volume" version. Since you are using an electric cooling fan, the hub is a moot point. The pump rotates in reverse because it is driven by the back-side of the belt, which makes it opposite the crank. V-belt pumps are driven "normally" (the same side of the belt is used to drive the pump, and is driven by the crank, thus rotates the same as the crank.

For the alternator, I recommend a single, high output setup. I've used both, single and dual, and single has served better. Check out www.alternatorparts.com for your answer. They have all platforms for all year models, with a very large selection of outputs (and priced accordingly). Don't worry about the rotation, it's "normal".

Hydroboost is not complicated. Look for a unit (and master cylinder) for any earlier 1980's HD light truck (one ton, gas or Diesel), and it'll bolt right up. Don't buy used! And, since you are using a late model PS pump, no worries of volume requirements. If not, you will need an auxiliary vacuum pump. The engine driven pumps won't keep up with braking needs, when you really need them. Scrap the whole vacuum idea, since you don't need it for HVAC or smog. One less thing to go wrong.

[Pelado]

Hola Missy,
Also, when you indicate that the 'Banks Turbo' you have has a 'cross-over' from the opposite side - what did you use and/or how did you do it? I have to 'assume' this means you are using both sides at once. Is it possible to see this set up in the pic you provided or could you 'show' me one that does show it clearly? While I'm asking - what do you know about the 'after-cooler' option?


Your oem system also has a crossover pipe from the opposite side, that's what Robyn and I tried to tell you in earlier posts. All 6.5 turbo engines from any year had the crossover.
From what you are telling me, you are missing this
http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/ashlandmufflerhouse/ebay55_001.JPG
This crossover is better than the oem unit that actually looks as if it was run over by a truck. No kidding. You need to get one of this before you start the engine.

Aftercooling will let you inject more fuel due to the air charge beeing cooler, meaning more dense air. Your mechanical pump has to be tunned up in order to gain something with the aftercooler. You can find how to do it yourself in thedieselpage.com but be aware that you better have turbo boost and EGT gauges before trying these to monitor how far you can go with the fuel metering screw in the pump, before melting down something inside the engine.
Air to Air intercoolers kit for 6.5 are offered by most diesel aftermarket vendors, you can find some of them in thedieselpage.com too.

I would strongly advise you run your truck as it is first for a while (once you figure out all the issues) and then going for More Power.

[mkholmes]

Thanks everyone. Hope you are all having a phenomenal day!

OK... I'll start with the cross-over.

Yep Pelado and Missy, my system is 100% 'isolated' dual. Single pipe per side. I'm familiar with this cross-over design. I was 'confused' (no-kidding right?) as I got my original information second hand and focused on the turbo intake. So, if I understand what you're saying - I will get better 'factory performance' with the cross-over installed. But, before I do this...
01) Will I always want it in the long run?
02) Being as this was a factory setup and I'm going to have to do exhaust work anyway, should I go ahead and have them do this at that time.

Which brings me to the turbo exhaust... does/should the turbo exhaust...
01) have its own exhaust pipe or
02) just exhaust on its own without a pipe or
03) tie into the normal exhaust pipe?

Next, you've already convinced me to go Hydroboost. I'm glad DmaxMaverick joined as I was about to purchase a 'used unit' from a neighbor. Guess I'll head out next week to get a new full unit. Might as well do it right the first time, huh?

As a side note: I'm looking at the dual alternator setup as I'm rigging this baby as a travel machine - on-board hot and cold running water, dual overhead a/c units, water tanks, etc... and everything will be 99% 12volt (including the a/c units) or propane. I've installed 4 batteries. 1 regular to run the vehicle and the 3 deep cell for everything else. Thus the reason for 2 alternator banks.

Which now comes to a very important question for me. Naturally, I could carry around a generator. But (as you should imagine), real estate is a major concern. She may be my Big Bertha :cool:, but even she only has so much usable space. So...

Although I'm well aware the fuel cost would be greater, I'm considering using the diesel motor to also be my generator. She may sit literally for days just idling at her 'sweet spot' rpm running my alternate alternator bank. Although this was not my only reason for converting - it still was/is extremely important to me. I would REALLY appreciate any information and/or advice with this.

Because of this, I'm also concerned about noise. What would be your recommendation for an 'ultimate silence' setup without diminishing performance (or is there such a thing)?

I really appreciate you all hanging in there with me. Naturally, I am interested in completing a project I can be proud of, so am driven to do things correctly the first time. There's no need to say that I would be lost without you - but I definitely want you to know how thankful I am.

As always,
Michael

[DmaxMaverick]

OK. You have a brand new (long) list of impossibilities and impracticalities.

You can't get enough "12V alternators" attached to the engine to run 99% of the devices you've listed. Probably closer to 10%. Even if you run dual VERY high capacity alternators, it might run ONE A/C unit, but NOTHING else at the same time. not to mention the bank of batteries needed for buffer storage. If you want "on board" power to run all that, you will have to install an engine driven inverter (generator) and run them AC, or an on-board stand-alone generator (RV type, or really noisy industrial type). Also, trying to run all this off engine power alone won't leave much engine power for other things, like driving around. I could go on, but I'll stop here, for now. And....you'll need TWO dedicated starting batteries, not just one. You can have as many additional you want, but 2 are needed for the starting system. A brand-new high capacity starting battery (700-1,000 amps) will start the engine for a little while during summer months, but it will soon fail to work well, and won't work at all during cold winter temperatures. Try not to save too much money on starting batteries--this will come back to bite you.

Now, for the exhaust........
You don't have a lot of options, other than choosing the type or mfg of turbo system components.
If your current system is 100% dual exhaust, you don't have a turbo in the system (unless it is a REAL bad shadetree job, or you have 2 turbos). Any V-8 Diesel turbo system, including all GM, is simple, and not very flexible with options. Both exhaust manifolds must gang together, and enter the turbine housing (exhaust side of the turbo). The outlet of the turbine housing is the "exhaust pipe", and can be routed or exited as you wish (straight down, straight up, forward/behind the rear wheel, single, dual, etc.), you only need to decide where you want the exhaust gas and noise to go. It WILL have a "cross-over" pipe, whether you see one or not. If it doesn't, and one exhaust bank goes to the turbo, and the other bank just gets dumped to the exhaust pipe, it is wrong and an extremely inefficient system that's probably more of a loss than a gain. Not to mention the engine imbalance that will probably destroy itself in short order. All of the above is the same for OEM or aftermarket. They may look different, but the principal of operation is the same for all, without exception.

The air intake charge compressor (intake side of the turbo) is: Air filter system--> compressor housing--> (CAC=Charge Air Cooler, if you include one)--> intake manifold. That's it.

I may be wrong, but I think you are over-complicating most of this project. Most of the things you are doing are very simple, mechanically speaking, with not much room for improvisation. All of what you are doing has been done by many of us, at one time or another. Some of us have done this many times.

[6.5TDTahoe]

Here is a web adress that probably has the largest amount of USED TRUCK/ Auto parts available in the world. Phone expense & shipping will figure in the overall expense.Most likly some will not want to ship international.It is* WWW.CAR-PART.COM* Good luck & give feedback of sucess or lack of.

[mkholmes]

OK DmaxMaverick - felt like a little spanking there! :eek:

If you've covered all - I've already admitted I'm an idiot and totally diesel illiterate. :( But will catch up with you professionals soon (with all the gracious and patient help provided so far). Naturally, it should be obvious I would be totally lost (and apparently still am). :) But hang in there - I'll get it - hopefully sooner than later, huh?

OK... You mentioned a 'bolt-on' engine driven generator. "You mentioned it" so I've got to ask - know where to get one and if so, is there one you'd recommend? Sounds like a better option than mine (of course).

Two batteries for usual use - no problem - I have two monsters per each side (made special trays). As a side note - the A/C units are not 110v, but 12v. Don't know if you caught that.

As far as the dual exhaust/cross-over/turbo - yep, didn't have a turbo on my gas engine (the one I'm replacing). So, it is obvious now the cross-over is not an option - it is a necessity and I will have it installed when I get to the exhaust shop to hook up the regular pipes. It 'appears' (from what I've interpreted) the closer to the turbo the split occurs - the better. Is this correct? Being as I'm paying for a 'custom exhaust job' anyway, then I might as well spend the money to do it the best. Let me know if I'm 'missing the boat' with this 'assumption' or not please.

Also, there is no doubt I'm over-complicating. I plan on living in this beast solely a large majority of the time with as little equipment overhead as possible. I know - WHAT??? But yes, this is the plan. So, I'm attempting to build it and take her on our 'maiden voyage' within a couple of months.

Did I mention I'm an idiot and diesel illiterate. Not enough room (or probably patience) to explain all the deep issues for the intention but it is what it is and this is my plan I've been preparing for several years now.

The time has finally come - so here I am - depending on the graciousness of others already experienced in the areas I'm now learning. In case I also didn't mention it - Thank you all VERY MUCH. I don't want to be a burden on your patience, but I can tell you your help has been more than I can express.

6.5TDTahoe - thanks for the link. It may come in handy, however Pelado gave me DieselDepot information earlier and it 'appears' they will be able to handle my immediate needs. But more information is definitely better than less. Knowledge is King and information is ALWAYS appreciated! :cool:

As a final note/question/other - I noticed you mentioned a Compressor Housing on the Turbo Setup. Either this is the pipe pointed to the front (Stock Turbo) or do I need to get another housing to put between the filter and this pipe. Confirmation?

Thank you all again very much. Your knowledge and experience has been (and continues to be) invaluable. I'm honored for the opportunity to hopefully be able to ultimately become a member of your permanent community (if you'll have me).

As always,
Michael

[DmaxMaverick]

No spanking. Like I try to encourage my older son, in regards to my younger son: "Educate. Don't punish". I'm not your dad. Punishment isn't my department.

I caught the "12V A/C" thing. Very inefficient and not advised. You still won't have engine power to run it and drive, economically. Not much better with the engine driven inverter and AC units (which are much more efficient), and they can be "plugged in" at most camp grounds. If you have everything relying on engine power alone. You're much better off with a dedicated generator in so many ways except initial cost (maybe). In the end, while running one or both A/C units (if it will run both), your fuel mileage and power usage will seriously impact economy and driveability. You are asking too much from too little (as in, any light truck Diesel). If what you plan were at all practical, those great big Diesel pushers would use it. They have small-load inverters, and large on-board generators for the big stuff (which is similar to your plan).

Back to the exhaust......
Your gasser exhaust system can be used, but ONLY after the Diesel system is in place and correct. You can split it off into duals if you want, but that's after the downpipe (the pipe that connects to the turbine outlet). Better is larger single. The turbo has one exit of a given size. The gains diminish as you increase size after the efficiency threshold. The cross-over argument is moot. Your exhaust guy won't do you any justice here. Get and install the correct cross-over pipe for the mfg system you are installing, such as the pipe Pelado posted above, or the inferior OEM pipe. The aftermarket pipes for the OEM system are only an improvement on the fabrication, but the point A to point B is the same. If Banks, use Banks. Etc. These pipes are not a separate part of the Diesel exhaust system, but a part of the system. It connects from manifold to manifold. Period. There is no adaptation required. You just get the correct pipe and install it, if you don't already have it with the system you are installing. If you don't have this pipe with the system you choose, add it to your list of parts to order or find. Like the brackets, you could make your own, but to what end?

The compressor housing is the aluminum half of the turbo, and completes the connection between the air filter plumbing to the intake. The turbine housing is the cast iron half, and completes the connection between the exhaust manifolds and tail pipe. It's no more complicated than that.

[mkholmes]

Hola Dmax...

I believe I am clear with each of your explanations. Thank you.

So, where did you say I might find more info on the Engine Driven Generator? I'd at least like to look. Might get some other ideas.

As always,
Michael

[DmaxMaverick]

Auragen is the name. www.aurasystems.com

There may be others, but this is the one I'm familiar with.

[ChrisN]

I recently purchased a 92 6.5 with all of the serpentine brackets and accessories still bolted on. Its on an engine stand in the garage so let me know if you need any pics of the setup. This motor was from a non a/c truck so there is no air pump. all other accessories are there and the belt is still installed.

[mkholmes]

Thanks Dmax. I'm on it.

Also, ChrisN - I would love a picture. Don't know if you've tried, but there aren't any out there. Missy's is the first I got to see, but it is a 6.2 (which I understand is a close second).

Also... Mine doesn't have the plastic cover and there is what 'appears' to be the equivalent of an "EGR Valve". Can/Will anyone enlighten me on what this is?

Thanks again,
Michael

[Pelado]

I've seen the Aura gen system working and I think it's GREAT, but it's also PRICEY.
All with capital letters.
I think DoD gave them a contract for some military vehicles.

[ChrisN]

Sorry for the delay...

http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20/ChrisN76/Engine%20and%20Trans/040640x480.jpg
http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae20/ChrisN76/Engine%20and%20Trans/041640x480.jpg

Probably be better if I took the fan off, let me know if you need pics of anything more specific.