Warning - watch out for these extra charges!

[mvtofino]

I think that most consumers are offended by hidden or unjustified charges that often find their way onto a mechanical workorder - I know I am. The question then becomes: what to do about it when the situation arises?

Most of the time I presume the amounts involved are not that significant, and many choose to simply move on rather than confront the supplier or create a hassle. Other times the amounts can be substantial, or as it was in my recent case, insult added to injury.

Background: Last August Canadian Tire diagnosed a faulty alternator & two start batteries that wouldn't hold a charge that were installed in a motor home I had just purchased. The new alternator was $149, the two upgraded batteries were $110 each, labour & taxes were $318 to total $689 so far. They also charged me a $39 diagnostic fee and $22 for shop materials for a grand total of $749.

That was $750 worth of peace of mind. I wasn't pleased with the diagnostic fee, but I did ask them to check out the system and that's what it cost. I also wasn't pleased with the shop materials charge, but they explained it was a standard procedure in place for some time.

Fast forward to a month ago; The new alternator - now with 150-odd miles on it - had blown some diodes and had a bad internal regulator that caused further damage downstream.

Canadian Tire booked me in for a warranty claim. They stated the alternator would be covered if defective, however the 100 day warranty on labour had expired. I signed the workorder but told them I was staying with the vehicle to make any decisions regarding the electrical system.

A few hours later I was presented with an invoice for $293 and I almost went ballistic! First of all, the labour cost was $20 more than the previous installation; they explained their rates had increased $10 to $99 per hour which accounted for the $20 for the 2 hours.

Next, they had included a $39.95 diagnostic fee; I told them I refused to pay a diagnostic fee on the grounds that I had told them what the problem was before I even arrived - it was their choice to analyze the system. They reluctantly agreed to reverse the fee.

And finally, the straw that broke the camel's back was another $17.10 charge for shop materials! Again, I told them that I refused to pay for shop materials; I had watched their every move; my RV hadn't moved - they worked on it in their parking lot - and the only things that came out of their shop was the new alternator, the mechanic, and their system analyzer machine. There were no shop materials consumed - period.

They explained that it was their policy to add shop materials to every invoice which are a percentage of billed labour. I am aware of shop material charges, have no problem paying them when consummables are actually consumed, but refuse to do so when unjustified and particularly in a warranty claim. Having to pay another $200 labour was bad enough, and they shouldn't forget the other $350 I paid for the new controller that their faulty alternator toasted. They were unmoved.

When the service department couldn't make things right, I had the cashier call the store manager who explained he didn't have the authority to reverse shop material charges; I would have to take it up with the service manager who wouldn't be in until Tuesday. Meanwhile, I paid the invoice including the shop materials charge under protest.

On Tuesday I explained my complaint to the service manager who reiterated their store policy but stated he would consider all the facts and contact me the following day with his decision.

True to his word, earlier today he contacted me and made what he called a reasonable proposal: rather than refunding the $17.10 charge, he would issue me a credit voucher in like amount to be used anywhere within a Canadian Tire store.

I realized I didn't have any recourse other than threatening to boycott their organization and bad mouth them whenever I got the chance. I had already paid them the money, so I doubted I would ever receive a cash refund, and decided to accept their offer. IMO, it was a reasonable compromise, all things considered.

I won't have any future repairs carried out on any of my vehicles at Canadian Tire unless its an emergency or there is no other choice. I will however, continue to shop in their stores from time to time as they do have some products value priced, and there is usually a good selection.

I know we all have horror stories to share with each other, and this incident is by no means a big deal or anything to really worry about. On the other hand, where should we draw the line? It's clear to me that very few people protest these types of charges and end up paying more than they should. We can't really blame the suppliers if their customers are willing to pay, too stupid to check, afraid to speak up, or don't really care one way or the other.

Am I wrong to feel offended? Should I not speak up for such trivial amounts as $39 or $17? What do you think?

If more consumers would take a stand against hidden or unjustified charges, then suppliers might be more reluctant to charge them in the first place. There is no law against gross profit, and let's face it, these are tough economic times that have seen many new policies and procedures adopted just to survive and stay in business.

I am interested in other opinions on this topic, as well as any strategic suggestions or comments. How many others have experienced similar charges, and what did they do about them?

Keep the stories flowing - there is nothing to lose and everything to gain! The more we know and hear, the stronger we will be.

Thanks for reading this posting - I look forward to your response...

JT

[JohnC]

Am I wrong to feel offended? Should I not speak up for such trivial amounts as $39 or $17? What do you think?

I think that if everything happened as you stated, they should have charged you nothing and replaced the controller, too.

I worked at a shop a few years back. We had a customer come in with charging problems. The wire from the alternator to the battery (starter terminal) had burnt out. Someone (NOT ME!) replaced the wire with a heavier gauge wire (an upgrade!) and released the car to the owner. A few days later it came back on the hook. The complaint was "all the gauges and lights started to go crazy, it stalled and smoke came out of the radio."

When I got it, the battery was bone dry, every bulb in the car was burned out, the PCM was fried, the instrument panel was fried, and the radio was fried. We replaced everything free. Including the original problem, a faulty voltage regulator...

A side note: An unregulated alternator running into a system with no battery to buffer, can generate scary voltages!

[convert2diesel]

JT:

Welcome to the wonderful world of Canadian Tire. I might also add that it is also the "new reality". The concept of value recieved for value given has left the building to be replaced by "we have him captive, lets see how far we can push this". Profit now takes precedence over value.

CTC is now, and has been for many years, the champion of "flat rate" pricing practises. While they will deny it till the cows come home, the guys on the shop floor are paid two ways:

1. If the flat rate book says the job will take 2 hours and the guy can slap it together in 1, then he is paid the 2 hours and you are charged accordingly. The most popular jobs on the floor at any CTC are brakes, tuneups and alignments. It is not uncommon to see paychecks going out of there for 120 to 130 hours in compensation for a 40 hr. week. The guys can make out like bandits of they are fast. The downside is if they screw up, then they have to fix it on their own time. If it is because of a defective part, then they are paid based on the CTC corporate flat rate (yes its different) books.

2. They are also paid a commision on "extra parts sold and installed". That is why any job quoted by CTC, almost without exception, includes a bunch of crap that is not necessarily needed. Don't ever fall for any of their so called 49 point inspections or the like...they always find something. If you really want to have fun, try taking your vehicle in for a mandatory safety inspection or e-test.

Unfortunately warranty replacement on defective work or parts usually falls on the shoulder of the individual franchise owner so very effort will be made to mitigate any financial loss on the transaction. Ergo your experience.

In short, find a shop that you can trust, and pay them on a "time and material" basis. Flat rate books are fine to get an idea of the cost but they should not be used for invoicing. Remember, these books are written to be sold to the industry and are naturally biased toward maximizing the time needed to accomplish the job assuming average competency. A good guy can shave 40% to 60% off these times, right across the board. If you are being charged the flat rate times then you are being taken. Shop rates are high enough these days without having to pay for time not spent fixing your vehicle.

As you can probably see, this is one of my pet peeves and one of the main reasons I still try to do most of my own maintenance and repair. T and M shops are getting very hard to find.

Bill

[mvtofino]

JT:

In short, find a shop that you can trust, and pay them on a "time and material" basis. Flat rate books are fine to get an idea of the cost but they should not be used for invoicing. Remember, these books are written to be sold to the industry and are naturally biased toward maximizing the time needed to accomplish the job assuming average competency. A good guy can shave 40% to 60% off these times, right across the board. If you are being charged the flat rate times then you are being taken. Shop rates are high enough these days without having to pay for time not spent fixing your vehicle.

As you can probably see, this is one of my pet peeves and one of the main reasons I still try to do most of my own maintenance and repair. T and M shops are getting very hard to find.

Bill

Here Here Bill;

Thanks for filling in a few of the remaining blank pages in my mechanical experience log book! I often wondered how reality might have differed from appearances, and now it makes much more sense to me. That doesn't mean I agree with such practices, only that I have better insight and understanding.

I believe I am fortunate in finding a new shop about a month ago. I was impressed by the composition of their website, the owner's mission statement, and what they purported to do. When I contacted them firs by email and then by phone, it was a very pleasing experience - they were good listeners and very professional in their dealing with people. On site their shop was well organized, well equipped and generally spotless as were their various personnel. They were asked to take on a black hole project - at least that is what it could have become if they weren't experienced in such vehicles - and it could have been a pit into which I poured nothing but money if they were inclined to take advantage of me.

They were on time, performed everything I asked them to, called me when an unforeseen problem came along, kept an excellent accounting of their time spent on each task, and even did a few extra things along the way that didn't show up on the invoice.

They discovered a small coolant leak somewhere in the system when doing a pressurization test as part of the rad flush. They tracked it down, estimated a cost figure and time allocation before contacting me, and then laid it out as a strong recommendation. Much the same with the tranny service. Nothing really wrong, but they suggested it would be wise to do a fluid change, filter and gaskets etc., and quoted a reasonable all in cost. When I did receive the invoice, both the coolant system repair and the tranny service came in well below the quoted amounts, but it didn't have to if you know what I mean. A good opportunity for a little sanctioned thievery in some other shops to be sure!

I did need new tires, and having already had another tire specialist shop look the rubber over and naturally recommend all 6 be replaced, I was curious if there would be any difference here. They provided lots of convincing evidence that the rears needed replacement, but the Michelins up front were over 80% good - they are only 3 years old - and should be. In the end, they supplied four Kelly Springfield 10 Ply 215/R85 16 All Season Radials, with a 50,000 mile warranty, statically & dynamically balanced, mounted including new valves and caps (green!) and filled with nitrogen for $640.00, all in. They also re-balanced the front tires, re-filled them with nitrogen and inspected the new spare too making sure pressure was correct and that it was properly mounted. I noticed that all new fasteners used by them on the rig were 314 stainless; they made no comment, and there was no extra charge.

Their labour rate is a flat $80 per hour, with a 30 minute, free consultation included.

They needed to keep the vehicle overnight and for a second day but kept it secured within their shop, and I picked it up the following day late in the afternoon (a Friday). They were still going strong after a long week, and I was told that the mechanic assigned to my rig needed to do some electrical system research on the internet the night before which he did at home on his own nickel. They insisted on an extended road test with me along during which they explained all the work that was completed as well as giving me a number of tips on looking after the rig, fuel efficiency, emergency assistance options etc. They knew we were going to California, and wanted to make sure we returned safe and in one piece.

During the no-start troubleshooting phase, I contacted them for some advice. Obviously they couldn't diagnose anything over the phone, but asked me to leave it with them for a couple hours to see what they could do. They got back to me and offered to send their emergency road service tire vehicle with a diesel mechanic to my residence and carry out a series of checks in hopes of solving the problem there. However, they indicated that they wouldn't be able to do any substantial repairs on the road, but would arrange discount towing to their facility if absolutely necessary. Fortunately it wasn't necessary as we got it running that evening, but I booked an appointment anyway to have them fully check out the electrical system - especially after Canadian Tire had installed the replacement alternator!

Happily they spent just over an hour checking out every wire and electrical component on the chassis/engine, and gave me a comprehensive condition report. They couldn't find anything wrong and gave the rig a clean bill of health. They charged me for 1/2 hour labour ($40 plus tax) and sent me on my way with a renewed feeling of confidence.

I could be premature in my assessment of this shop - Double D Automotive Services Ltd., King George Blvd., Surrey, BC, Canada; owner Dave Hesch - but I don't think so. I took the time to watch how they answered the phone, how they dealt with any aggitated customers (1 only), and their overall attitude and performance. They claim to do an awful lot of fleet service for many well known local businesses which are listed as testimonials on their website. In my opinion, opening one's kimono for a good look inside is a ballsy move, and not many will do such a thing unless they are worried about what might be discovered. I'm one of the few who will actually investigate a company's claims, and boy can that be an interesting experience!

I may have discovered a gem of a mechanical shop here - one that I can get to know and rely upon - and one where the pursuit of profit is not the sole motivation. That said, I am a strong believer in a healthy profit, but only when it's earned and only when it's fully disclosed. Sadly, our government has conditioned us to accept sleazy business practices like our rip-off, value-added GST tax, soon to become the Harmonized Sales Tax for us moronic lemmings in BC starting July 1st. What a tax bonanza that is going to be - and it's well disguised to boot! I can't remember seeing any price reduction following the elimination of the Federal Sales Tax back during the GST sales pitch days - can you?

Obvioiusly I am taking extra time to detail this story because I was impressed with their service and want to share the information with others who may be in a geographical location to take advantage of what they have to offer. It also restores some of my lost confidence in the real world of business that suggests some of the traditional values are still respected. When I find such a business operation I am only too happy to take that extra time to provide all the details even if it gets a little lengthy to read. Besides, I am not noted for my brevity...

In the final analysis, people will spend a lot less time (and money) reading longer testimonials like this than they will stalled on the side of the road waiting to get fleeced on repairs for as much the traffic will bear - and then some! Knowledge and awareness of alternatives can be an effective survivalist strategy when on the road or looking for mechanical assistance.

And there will always be a Canadian Tire - type operation out there striving to deliver their mediocre service at best. They do stimulate a local micro-economy and fill a market niche however, and have too many dollars invested for them to function any other way. I guess a certain segment of the population will continue to suffer as a result. We must all live and learn!

Otherwise, thanks again for your reply. It was very informative and I just hope others read these posts before committing to action on vehicle repairs. Also, I am glad that I am not the only one who is tuned into such matters and willing to speak up. Keep those opinions and stories flowing!

And always - Keep it b'tween the ditches! ;>)

JT

[6.5 Detroit Diesel]

stay far away from Canadian Tire. they are about the lowest scum in my books. had to many and heard of to many bad deals and service from them. find a smaller shop with a reputation in town and use them. they might not have the latest and shiniest toys, but they have the knowledge and morals to treat you and your ride right.

[mvtofino]

...find a smaller shop with a reputation in town and use them. they might not have the latest and shiniest toys, but they have the knowledge and morals to treat you and your ride right.

Dieselburner:

You are sooo right! I think I did find a keeper shop (finally) which I detailed in a reply to another poster.

Let's just hope that the Canadian Tire type of shop out there some day gets the message and starts to treat people right. In order for that to happen however, they need to feel the pinch financially, and that requires dissatisfied people like you and I to speak up and let them know we aren't prepared to accept that kind of treatment.

Fantasy thinking you say? Probably so, but we still have a responsibility to let our opinions be known. Who knows who will be listening...

Best regards,
JT

[argo]

I mention this because I am an electrical diagnostics specialist. I Graduated from the GM ASEP program back in 1994, and I have specialized in electrical diagnosis ever since. When tracking down an electrical problem, you don't want some guy at a discount shop hanging parts left and right until he stumbles upon a repair that works. Especially since they usually don't repair the problem, and you pay the invoice only to find that your problem hasn't been fixed. I am appalled at the number of "professionals" in this field who do not know or follow sound diagnostic procedure. I now teach automotive technology at my local career and technical education high school, and we have effectively diagnosed and repaired serious electrical issues that people have paid local backyard mechanics and pep-boys and some private garages hundreds (one guy, thousands!!!) of dollars to fix their vehicles, only to still be stuck driving a broken vehicle. I have always sought to repair the vehicle right the first time, but many times I have been given grief by people for my diagnostic time. I don't understand that aversion to compensating me for making sure that I fix the car properly. I'll give you a quick example, as I do side work as well. I had a fellow with a 1995 Ford F-150 come to me with a problem. The engine stalls like you turned the key off when easing out of the clutch from a dead stop. After exceeding 45 mph, it does the same. He has already taken the vehicle to 5 different shops over the course of two years, and spent over $2500 trying to fix the truck! People had replaced just about everything... all the sensors, the alternator, the starter (!!!), the battery (2x), even the clutch, to no benefit. However, once I got the truck, I took a test drive with my scanner hooked up to it, and I noticed the speedometer jumping all around when the vehicle shut down at 45 mph. I also noticed that the water temp gauge read hot even after sitting overnight, and the engine "had oil pressure" even when not running. When scanning the vehicle, particularly when it shut down, the VSS signal said the vehicle was suddenly going over 100 mph. When the vss shot up like this the computer reacted by cutting fuel supply. This even happened when rolling out from a dead stop, hence the stall on takeoff. I examined a wiring diagram for the vehicle and discovered the VSS signal for the ECM is processed through the speedometer. The speedometer was messing up, but why? I also remembered the gauges mentioned earlier, and I looke for what they shared in common. Sure enough, they shared a ground. I tested the ground circuit, and there was excessive resistance. I found corrosion at the ground terminal where the circuit terminated at the body. I repaired this problem, and the gauges read correctly afterward. However, the bad ground had damaged the analog/digital converter inside the speedometer. I was able to replace that with a good unit from the local salvage yard. The total cost for this correct and permanent repair was $350.00, including the run to the junkyard for a good replacement speedo head ( a new one was $820.00 at Ford). What happened however, is I got grief for charging 1.5 hours diagnostics time and .5 hours for "fixing a stupid wire". He (and many other people) don't get it. Had he goone to someone who diagnosed problems and did quality work to begin with (read, not a discount shade tree mechanic) he probably would have gotten a repair for 300-500 bucks. Instead he nickel and dimed himself to over two grand for NOTHING! But then, when I did the repair properly and honestly, I got griped at. That is the problem. People who do it right and charge accordingly are blamed for "ripping people off" because they charge diagnostic time and a reasonable hourly rate and don't try to make a living on volume, but on quality. Then we are all crooks when the shade tree guys rake people over the coals. You need to find a good shop like mvtofino has, and don't gripe when they charge a reasonable rate for doing quality work. The guy fixes it right deserves to be paid for his time. Diagnostics is part of that. Sorry for the rant, but I really get cranky about that. I do agree however that the customer should never be charged diagnostics or materials for a warranty repair, even if labor isn't covered. Also, I never charge for materials unless I use materials on the repair, so mvtofino is right on there too.