Fuel pump grenaded.

[SHOPMAN426]

It's been awhile since I posted last but I've got a really big problem. My '02 GMC is sitting up at the dealer and they are saying my fuel pump has gernaded and there is metal in the oil.

Last week I was running around picking up a few suplies before a trip to the coast with the fifth wheel. When I arrived at the fuel station the attendant noticed I was pouring fuel on the ground at the back of the eingine block. It looked like someone had a watering can pouring over the back of the block. I was able to start the truck and get it home. Drove it into my shop to have a look. From the top of the motor you could not tell where the fuel was comming from. Wiped the underside off as best as I could, still can't tell the exact point of the leak. Started truck again, after five seconds of running the fuel started to dump again. Ran truck up to the local GM dealer to see what they could come up with. It took two days for them to get going on it. I think they only have one Dmax tech. I haven't been back to the dealer to see the evidence at this point. The service rep is telling me that I need an entire new motor at this point since they see metal in the oil. New crate motor is around $9200.00, mine has just over 40K at this time. I can't believe this is the answer for my problem.

Shopman426

Mike

[Kennedy]

I would definitely drop by and take a look. To me it would seem that there would be evidence of wear on the pump and pump drive gear.

[SHOPMAN426]

Just returned from the dealership. First off I guess I should be calling it the injector pump. Tech said he has not ever seen or heard of this problem. He cleaned up the mess in the valley and came up with a bunch of metal shaving scraps. Some are the size of shot. He started it and what happens is the motor valley will fill up with fuel and run out the back and down the back side of the block. He disabled the engine from starting up for this test by removing some type of relay. At this point they will not even think of pulling this motor down. They talk of a replacement crate motor. Remove my LB7 and drop in a new one . Not sure if it would be brand new or a refreshed one. Tech has never done one before and is not sure.

Shopman,

Mike

[SHOPMAN426]

Just got off the phone with GM customer service. They took all the info down and contacted the dealership for more info. She comes back on the line and says I should have known better than to drive it until it gave out before bringing it in. I heard a odd noise on Monday night while starting up the truck. Kind of a loud rattle knock for one second and them everything was fine. The sound reminded me of the older Dodge Cummins rattle. Moved the truck outside my shop on the driveway and shut it off. Then to make sure it was ok I started it again, all back to normal. Didn't drive the truck any more until Wednesday. Started ok again and then drove maybe five miles before noticing the fuel pouring out at the service station. Took it up to the dealer which is less than a mile from my house. The engine never set a code during all this time. Left a message with the service rep to call me bach so I can thank him for making me look like the bad guy and driving my truck around until it gave out.


Some customer service!

Shopman,

Mike

[Mark Rinker]

Why exactly are they calling for a new engine? :confused:

If there is no warranty coverage, then my approach would be to fix what ails the truck, do two quick oil changes (with filters) and expect that the engine will have many more serviceable miles on it.

There are many low mile LB7 engines available from salvage yards, and more every day from 2001-2004.5 trucks that get wrecked. Many with similar miles to yours, for ~$6500 complete - with a good working injector pump!!! With a little good luck, and VIN numbers in hand, you might even be able to find one that had a recent set of warranty sprays installed by a dealership, before the wreck. If you decide to go this route, I'd be shopping for a 2003 or early 2004, with 8th position of the VIN = '1'.

Good luck.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2001-2004-GM-Duramax-6-6-Turbo-Diesel-engine-48k-LB7-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem53da615afaQQitemZ36014 6098938QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccesso ries


http://milwaukee.craigslist.org/bar/1669425324.html

[SHOPMAN426]

Tech said because of the metal in the oil the dealership would not cover any work other than a replacement. They don't want to be left holding the bag. I saw the metal particles that he removed from the oil pan. They were pretty big pieces. Not something that I would feel good about as I was driving down the road pulling my fifth wheel. Waiting on the service rep to call me back that through me under the bus with the gal at GM Customer Service. The shop manager said I should trade it in on a new one. It"s a good thing I didn't have anything heavy in my hands. What a bone head!

Shopman,

Mike

[SHOPMAN426]

How far down into the block does the injector pump reach? Just wondering how much material is inside the block area. The used block from a wreck looks like one way to go. Would need to fine a good diesel shop to do the swap.

Shopman,

Mike

[SHOPMAN426]

Just got off the phone with the district service manager that covers my area. He is going to look into my case and see if there is anything that they can do. I told him I wasn't looking for GM to replace the motor at there cost, but I do want them to understand that I bought this truck to last me for more that 40K miles. It would be different if it had 140k mile on it. He did tell me it was getting old. I wonder how old this guy is, does he know that diesels are designed to last a long time.


Shopman,

Mike

[Kennedy]

Just returned from the dealership. First off I guess I should be calling it the injector pump. Tech said he has not ever seen or heard of this problem. He cleaned up the mess in the valley and came up with a bunch of metal shaving scraps. Some are the size of shot. He started it and what happens is the motor valley will fill up with fuel and run out the back and down the back side of the block. He disabled the engine from starting up for this test by removing some type of relay. At this point they will not even think of pulling this motor down. They talk of a replacement crate motor. Remove my LB7 and drop in a new one . Not sure if it would be brand new or a refreshed one. Tech has never done one before and is not sure.

Shopman,

Mike

The shavings are in the valley?

Are they steel or aluminum?

Has he even removed the pump?

I can't quite get a clear picture on where the shavings are coming from. From the gears inside is about the only way I can think of that you'd end up with a potential engine problem.

If it's from the gears I would look at the water pump closely and see if this could be the origin of the problems.

[SHOPMAN426]

Hey Kennedy,

I will go back and check today. The metal that he showed me looked like steel, but I will take a magnet along. He said the Fomoto valve didn't let much by when he was getting a oil sample. All I saw removed from the engine was the air filter box cover and the air tube to the turbo. Also the metal horn that bolts up to the turbo. Since the injector pump is barried under so much I would have to say that he hasn't removed it at this point. He was using a mirror to get a look down in the valley. The tech admitted to me that he has only been working on Duramax's for four years. I got the feeling that he didn't want to remove much of anything at this point since they have been burned in the past.

Still waiting on the District guy to follow up with me. At this point I don't have alot of confidence in this dealership to do the replacement if thats the road I end up going down.

[Kennedy]

I'd really want to know just what was in the pan. I'd like to see if teh drive gear is shot or what.

We have seen in the High Perf world where the water pump drive gear has worked back and eaten the block and pump drive gear which could be part of what you are seeing here.

[SHOPMAN426]

Got the call today from the district service rep. At this time GM is calling for a total engine replacement. I asked a few specific questions such as , is the replacement motor a drop in or is it some version of a long block. He did say they have to order a injector pump separately. Outside of that he didn't know. Sounds as if it's just a block and heads. GM is going to give me the block at their cost and split the final bill down the middle. The new motor will come with a three year 100,000 mile warranty. It's hard to say if this is the best way to solve this problem. It does surprise me that they don't look a little deeper into the block to see just what happened. I understand that once all that metal has made it down through the motor I would have a hard time trusting this motor to bring me home on a long trip. Not something I would want to test. Turn around time should be about a month. I was told it takes two weeks to ship a motor out to the west coast.

Shopman,

Mike

[SHOPMAN426]

Drove by the dealership today and noticed my truck was no longer parked outside. Stopped in to see what was up. Turns out the the motor arrived two days ago. They put the motor on the fast track so they could get things moving. Tech said he should have the old motor out sometime on Monday (as if 40k is considered old). I asked him what all came with the new motor. I mainly wanted to know if new injectors were installed. He figured that it had new injectors since the long block came with valve covers installed. No turbo, water pump, or injetor pump came installed. I will be curious to see what my old water pump looks like once it is removed. If Kennedy is right they will need to get one ordered as it was not on the new parts list. I will stop by Monday late to get an update, and take the camera along just incase they have opened up the front of the motor.

Shopman,

Mike

[SHOPMAN426]

Just got back into town from a work related road trip. Decided to stop by the dealership to see how the progress was going. New motor is now installed and bolted up. Mostly electronics, turbo, and plumbing is left to install. Was able to see the old motor as it is now sitting on the shop floor. They had already removed the injector pump and shipped it off to GM for evaluation. However I was able to see the mess that was left behind. Hopefully my pictures come through on this post.

Shopman,

Mike

[SHOPMAN426]

Ok, I guess I don't know how to include a picture with my post.

Shopmam,

Mike

[Kennedy]

I got the pics that you emailed me. Chunks in teh valley, but how does this affect the engine?

From my source:

No oil to the pump. It is lubed with fuel. New ultra low sulphur diesel has less lubricity than older fuel…. Maybe a contributor. Any chance of gasoline being introduced either by the fuel station or dare I say owner (or owners spouse)?

[DmaxMaverick]

I agree with John here. What internal engine damage? The pump is external to the engine, except the driven gear/shaft. If the gear didn't scatter, there must be some other internal failure causing the internal contamination. A failed fuel pump should only involve fuel system component repair/replacement. My concern would be the mechanic installing a failed component (which caused the contamination) onto your "new" engine. Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

[SHOPMAN426]

Ok. now you guys are making me worry. I asked to see the injector pump and it was still onsite in the parts department. The tech showed me where the shaft has a length long crack. You could see it through an opening on the side. The shaft that would stick into the opening didn't have the drive gear attached. Not sure were that is. I'm kind of learning as we go along with this engine replacement on how the injector pump picks up it's movement from the motor. It sounds like I need to ask what happened to the drive gear at this point.

As far as the type of fuel that has been going into my truck, it would be mostly No. 2 diesel. Wife never has filled the truck up. I have from day one used FPPF Total Power with each fill up. I always get out of the truck at fueling.


Shopman,

Mike

[SHOPMAN426]

I guess my next question is, what's the drive gear for the injector pump made of? And the gear I see in the front of the block, what is it attached to.

Shopman,

Mike

[DmaxMaverick]

Crank gear. Cam gear. (no chain)

[JohnC]

Did anyone cut open the oil filter? If there's metal in the oil, it should lodge there. No metal in the filter means no metal got anywhere important...

[Quack_Addict]

Not sure if it's a state law (where I live) or federal but if the replacement parts are not being covered under warranty, the take off parts are YOURS, not GM's to have sent back to engineering or where ever for evaluation. The fact that any parts were sent to GM for evaluation in the first place raises flags for me. Also, that 'old' engine should be yours for the taking - don't let GM or the dealership take/keep it.

Something smells fishy.........

[DmaxMaverick]

Not sure if it's a state law (where I live) or federal but if the replacement parts are not being covered under warranty, the take off parts are YOURS, not GM's to have sent back to engineering or where ever for evaluation. The fact that any parts were sent to GM for evaluation in the first place raises flags for me. Also, that 'old' engine should be yours for the taking - don't let GM or the dealership take/keep it.

Something smells fishy.........

Most states have laws similar to this. However, it does not apply if the shop/dealer pays or compensates for the replacement parts, in whole or in part. It isn't uncommon for GM, or any manufacturer, to examine/evaluate a component due to a questionable or uncommon failure.

[Quack_Addict]

It isn't uncommon for GM, or any manufacturer, to examine/evaluate a component due to a questionable or uncommon failure.

True, but the OP's truck is a 2002 and I'm sure Dmax fuel pumps have evolved enough in the last 9 years to the point where that pump design is a memory. I can't imagine this is the first time this failure mode has been seen considering the inventory of vehicles in service and known fuel-related issues with them.

The flag-raiser for me is the OEM upping to share repair costs on a dated vehicle... call it a hunch but based upon a few things I won't go into further detail on... it seems a bit out of the ordinary.

Granted, the guy's truck has ridiculously low miles but given the amount of push-back & warranty denials I got from GM on my 2006 for legitimate warranty claims under the powertrain warranty, something seems amiss. Maybe I'm wrong...

[SHOPMAN426]

Hey Guys,

I've been out of the loop for the past week. My job puts me out of town quite allot these days. I left town on Tuesday morning of this past week and before I drove out of town I drove by the dealership to just see if I could see my truck in the shop being worked on. You can see from the road right into the shop area. I wish I could have stopped but I was running late at this point. I did see my truck sitting outside of the shop building in the parking lot, meaning they were at least done with the new motor installation. The week before I had a chance to talk with the tech who was doing all the work. He told me that after he was done wrenching that the service manager would take the truck through a bunch of road tests before they gave me my truck back. It does seem a little odd that they haven't called the house to leave a message that the truck is ready for pickup. I won't be back in town until next Tuesday late.

Allot of people find it hard that I have such low miles on my truck. My company affords me a company van that I drive to and from my door. It's been this way my entire career at the phone company. The truck only moves on the weekends or when I am pulling the family fifth wheel travel trailer. It spends its life sitting inside my pole barn shop.

The info that I get here is more than I could ever ask for and I do appreciate all the input.
When I return I will stop by the dealership to see what is going on. I will sit down with the service manager and talk this out. I will ask him to show and prove to me that this was the only option in my case. I understand they are doing me a great deal by splitting the costs. But at the same time I don’t want to look like a fool.

Sine I have to pay for the new injector pump shouldn’t I get to keep the old one? I will have to look over the bill when I pick up the truck to see if they spit that cost too. If I did infact pay full price I would think it would be mine.

Thanks for all the help,

Shopman,

Mike

[SHOPMAN426]

Picked the truck up Tusday night after returning from central Oregon. I was dissapointed in the service rep that was incharge of my repair. People like him are why customers leave and never come back to that place for service in the future. I had to go and talk with the parts guy to find out about my warranty and all that was done concerning my truck. Then I had to talk to the cashier to find out the itemized bill. Not a whole lot was on that piece of paper either. Finally one of the other service reps came over and expained the whole bill. Turns out that every item was split down the middle with GM picking up half of the tab.

Now the bad news. I think you guys were right, I don't think I needed a new long block. I asked the Tech once again to explain why he felt a new motor was the answer. I asked what happened to the drive gear that was attached to the injector pump. He replied that he reused the gear. So then I asked how could metal particles get down inside the engine. He just thought they could and that's what direction he went. I don't believe he found any metal in the oil, just what was in the valley. It's to late to tell anything with my old core and they pointed out that I signed a piece of paper authorizing the new motor install.

Mental note for the future: By pass this dealership when I am out looking for a new car or truck.

So what it boils down to is I just spent five grand and change for new injectors, injector pump, zero miles, and a new three year or 100,000 mile warranty. Which may have been all avoided if they would have looked a little deeping into the cause. I won't put all the blame on them. I should of sharpened my pencil first.



Shopman,

Mike

[SHOPMAN426]

Trucks back in the shop after only twenty-three miles. For the first time in my trucks life it set a code, low coolent level. Took the truck back the next day and now it is leaking coolant. Turns out one of the hard lines was damaged when reinstalled. Hopefully I will get it back before the long weekend so I can put a few miles on her.

Shopman,

Mike

[SHOPMAN426]

Picked up truck last night and a new coolant hard line is now installed. I took a look under the hood to make sure that the work was actually done. The pipe that was damaged went from the right side of the radiator up and through the fire wall.

Now for my question to all that have had a remanufactured motor installed in their trucks. My first motor was very quiet. The new motor has a louder than normal rattle right off idle. Now this may go away as the miles start to add up (I hope). Once the truck is up in the RPM’s it seems to smooth out. I don’t know if this noise is because of the new injectors. Did they change the design of the replacements? Going to get about a hundred miles today, let’s hope nothing breaks.


Shopman,

Mike

[DickWells]

My sympathies are with you. You may have read my recent posts on my injector issues.
Just for the heck of it, and in hopes it may be of value to you, in the future, I'm going to tell you about Stirling GMC, in Longview, WA, which is within reasonable distance of you. In 07, they took my truck in, with an excess smoke at idle condition, and replaced all the injectors and sleaves, under warrantee, and it didn't cost me a pennny. And, I made it clear that there was an Edge Juice tuner in there. Not a problem. Oh, how I wish that I had taken my truck back there 3 weeks ago, when I noticed that there was a little bit of smoke at idle. I was right there, across the river, in Rainier, OR, at the time. I'll bet my situation would have been a lot different than what I'm going through, right now. Hindsight is sure working great for the Old Fart, these days!

[SHOPMAN426]

You know that was the first thing they asked me if I had any chips or tuners on my engine. The funny thing is I was getting ready to step up and buy one of Kennedy’s programs. Now I will have to wait and see how this new motor behaves as I rack up the miles.

My work takes me up to Longview from time to time; I will keep them in mind. I will need to read my warranty to see if it extends outside of the dealership that did the work.

Thanks for the info.

Shopman426,

Mike

[DickWells]

Hope you're covered. GM is telling me that once the injectors are replaced under the Special Policy, they're only covered for 12K miles.

[SHOPMAN426]

I'm looking at the warranty right now and at the top of the page it says;

GM Parts Warranties

Nationwide Limited Warranty
Fully Transferable
Includes Parts and Labor

New and Remanufactured GM Parts Long Block Engines
36 Months or 100,000 Miles

New GM Parts Short Block Engines
24 Months or 24,000 Miles

I'm going to assume that the injectors that came installed with the reman. are new, not a rebuilt item. Maybe someone here can tell how you find out what the specs on the remanufactured block are.

I'm quite sure that my original injectors were just fine. My milage has always been consistant and my oil level never moved. And once I heard Kennedy talking about fuel additives I have run 4oz. of Total Power in every tank full.

Shopman426,

Mike

[DmaxMaverick]

For the purpose of GM parts warranties, there is no difference between new or reman injectors installed by GM. The "standard" GM GoodWrench warranty applies for that system component.

In regards to the "injector replacement under the extended warranty", the TSB supersedes the standard GoodWrench warranty. Miles and time are all that apply, if all other conditions are met. Also note, your warranty is extended for ALL warranty claims, for mileage and time, according to the down time (time in the shop) and shop applied miles during any warranty repair. This information should be on your repair order(s). If not, demand they include it, or it may not be included in the permanent electronic record, and keep copies of all your repair orders.