Mist Injection

[BuffaloGuy]

Is anybody doing this? I am researching the possibilities/benefits of this idea adn would love to hear users comments.

[StephenA]

Bill Heath has one- there was a thread on this last week.

[BuffaloGuy]

Thanks. I read that post but thought that maybe we could get some folks who actually use a system to report smile.gif

[jimbo6.5]

hI, Ive had Bills water system on my truck for about a year now, With flawless
results. He also installed his heavy duty fan clutch, With the two add ons I no longer see high water temps as well as trans temps, and exhaust. I often run a little methynol with the water for that extra kick in the pants. i wish i had got it sooner. I never have to down shift and slow down due to heat. The Tcc stays locked up because of the extra power.ALL
IS GOOD....
JIM

[BuffaloGuy]

Thanks for posting Jim. Good to hear your report. I spoke with Jamine at Avant yesterday and we chatted about Bills mist system too and he thought it was pretty good. I guess Bill took him for a spin at the last ronde and he saw it work in action.

I'm leaning towards it pretty heavy vs an air to air or liquid to air intercooler but still have a bunch of questions.

Do you have an intake temp gauge?
If so, how much will it drop the intake temps?

Do you use distilled water, tap water or washer fluid?

How big of a tank do you have for the fluid?
Where did you mount it?

Do you tow?
If so, how much water do you use per hour with what kind of load?

At what boost level do you have yours set to come on at?

And the big one... Under load, do you notice a big increase in HP when you switch it on?

Thanks!
Ken

[jimbo6.5]

Hi Ken, I"D Love to answer your ?s I have an intake temp gauge ordered thru bill
heath, He demonstrated the big change in temp for me and got me wanting a gauge.
you can pull a good hill for say a mile, touch the intake and you'll leave skin on it, with the same pull with the water on you can put your hand on the intake and leave it there.I run a 12 gal steel air tank mounted in the rear of my pickup, powered by an rv water pump, I use tap water ran thru a rv filter, I pull a 30'
fifth whl. truck and trl 14,000#.. In theory if you were to pull steady for an hour straight i would use the 12 gals. but thats not going to happen, I pull the trailer 300 mi stop to fuel an fill the water at the same time it's not that big of a deal, all truck stops have water at the pumps,as far as seeing the power ,if i'm pulling a 6% grade at 45 mph no more throttle , and turn onthe system it will be up to 60 in maybe a minute, it dosent take long to respond especially if i'm running methynol it may take 30 seconds
I hope i answered all your ?s if not . don't hesitate to ask
Jim

[BuffaloGuy]

Thanks Jim! You answered a bunch of my questions and it really matters that you actually USE your truck. I've been to WA and know you have some pretty good grades to really use it on.

How many miles have you towed with it so far? It really sounds like the way to go for me too.

How much did the whole system cost? Sounds liek you are pretty pleased with it. Is the system pretty easy for a mechanically inclined person to install themselves?
Ken

[jimbo6.5]

Hey Ken, Sorry for not answering right away, I took the trailer up to the lake for the last days of trout, and caught a
mess of fish, I guess i forgot one question you had about when the system comes on. I cant think of who makes the switch, you would have to talk to Mr. Bill,I have a 10# switch, So i also have an on/off switch when the power switch is on the system is armed and when i reach
10# boost the water comes on and i have a turbo master that allows me 16# max boost
it's really straight forward, theres also a valve coming from the resiovior that limits how much water is deliverd, i dont think you'll have any problams bill health will he;lp with parts and install
over the phone he's one of the good guys
i put that system in the same timechevy put a new pump in my truck, so i know i've put 12,000mi no troubles yet.I think you'll like it also.
Jim

[markelectric]

What does this do for your milage?

[jimbo6.5]

mileage is allways on my mind, before the water was installed i would get 12 to 15mph whether i wanted to or not pulling my fifth wheel depending where i went , More or less hills.
now i average 15 all the time while using the system. Especially if i use mythanol-w- the water
I even use it empty on the long big hills,You can feel the difference at that time. the pedal needs to be applied for more power on the hill,I'll turn on the water and watch the speedo go up. My one ton has allways got good mileage 18 to 20, so i see 20 all the time. I can't complain. Everything done to my truck has been done by Bill heath, from chip, exhaust, to water
he's got it tuned just right,turbo master, fsd cooler,his own design.it just gets down the road and does it efficeintly..
Jim

[BuffaloGuy]

Jim,
That's about the same mileage increase I've heard from another guy too. Do you use washer fluid for more power and/or freeze protection or do you just add the methanol yourself?

I've been watching the boost on my truck pretty closely since I've been researching this unit. What I've found is that quite often my boost is under 10 psi for a while until I get the rpms up to about 2000. I'm wondering if intake temps will get overly hot at boost levels under 10 psi when under a heavy load. Got any idea? If so, I guess a slight change in driving habits will be required. Is this why you are getting an intake gauge?

I called Bill and he was sure easy to talk with about this system. I guess calling this mist injection is not really right. It sounds like it injects a stream, not a mist, BEFORE the turbo. The wind velocity and heat then atomizes the water. The system sounds very simple and well built.
Ken

[jimbo6.5]

HI Ken, I use methanol myself, I really have'nt
heard about using washer fluid, that would defenetly be cheaper in the winter.
To increase your boost, you'll need to get a turbo master,You do have a pyro? more boost =more power, and heat,Thus the water system, before the water my boost leval was 12# max, I was using bills H/o towing chip.
and i had to slow down on a lot of hills,Because of the heat, {exhaust temps}.now when i'm pulling hard i see 15 # of boost and 1000deg on the pyro,that's why i want an intake temp gauge
it also lets you see the results of the water, and you can make adjustments to flow rates.
I'm glad you talked to Bill, He will explain every thing in lamens terms and explain it until he's sure you understand, the man has the patients of an oyster.
Jim

[BuffaloGuy]

Jim,
So the water increased your boost from 12 to 15 psi? Sounding better all the time. I better start saving my pennies!

What's the downside in your opinion?

Is it injected before or after the turbo?
Ken

[ 11-04-2003, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: The Buffalo Guy ]

[jimbo6.5]

Hey Ken, In my opinion the only down side ,If you can call it a down side, is that i only have a 12 gallon tank for supply, I allready have a change in place this spring, I've bought a water
bladder from camping world that fits just right under my tool box, It holds 30 gals. so i won't have to worry about one less thing.
To answer your other ?.Bill tested two locations.
directly in the intake manifold,post turbo. It worked fine but it was alot harder to adjust volume, so it is now pre turbo, And in my opinion it works flawlessly, post turbo was tricky, it was still ran by a boost switch, But if the intake temps were low, for instance, from a stop and flat land driving, If the system was armed with low intake temps. When the water was injected it would cause the engine to over fuel if you will. Sometimes leaving a trail of steam
pre turbo stoped this problam.Now it's steam before it's in the engine. "Mist injection"
Jim

[BuffaloGuy]

Jim,
Any concern about turbo damage with it being injected pre-turbo?

Ken

[jspringator]

What can you put in it (except alcohol) to keep it from freezing?

[BuffaloGuy]

James,
From what I hear folks are doing you can add methanol or just use windsheild washer fluid which is water and methanol. The methanol also gives added hp.

Bill Heath told me that while on the dyno he showed an added rear wheel HP gain of 60 HP when he flipped the switch to water (only) injection!

60 rwhp is a huge gain for a maybe 180 rwhp motor. Of course, this is the manufacturer dispensing the numbers here but he has always seemed to be a straight shooter and has a good rep. with the guys using his system.

I agree that a front mounted simple intercooler would be the best but I have some serious resevations about it namely:

1. Cost. $1300 is big bucks.

2. Location of the unit is very troublesome. Hit a coyote or rabbit and that's it. Also, living on gravel roads as I do would be too much for it. I'm sure it wouldn't take long to get a hole in it. My front grill is a testamant to the pounding gravel roads give the front end.

3. The location also seems to be lacking good airflow.

4. The trait of the 6.5 to weep a little oil into the intake would greatly reduce the effeciency of the unit as it coats the intercooler. An oil trap should be added to recycle this oil and keep the unit clean.

With all that said, I know there are plenty of guys who are very pleased with their intercooler. I just feel that this water injection needs a very close look as it seems to have some benefits over a standard intecooler namely:

1. Much greater added hp.
2. A cleaning effect on the motor.
3. No need for forward speed or air flow. (which is nice on hot days with tail winds)
4. Water injection also cools the whole turbo housing which should increase longevity.
5. Increased, not decreased, turbo boost.
6. Cooler intake temps.

Since I don't have a system installed yet these points are just from my research but this is where I am to date.
Ken

[rjschoolcraft]

Let me dispel a few myths...


Originally posted by The Buffalo Guy:
1. Cost. $1300 is big bucks.Cost is high, but it has been well worth it for me.


Originally posted by The Buffalo Guy:
2. Location of the unit is very troublesome. Hit a coyote or rabbit and that's it. Also, living on gravel roads as I do would be too much for it. I'm sure it wouldn't take long to get a hole in it. My front grill is a testamant to the pounding gravel roads give the front end.The construction of the unit is much more robust than what you are used to looking at with a radiator. It would take a very large rock at very high velocity to put a hole in it. I live on a gravel road, too. A rabbit or coyote would probably not damage much at all. Once you cleaned the hair and guts out of the fins, it would probably be back to full functionality. One guy posted on here last year (the post is now lost due to the "glitch") that he dropped the front end into a ditch and rammed the intercooler into the opposite bank. He hosed the mud out and found no damage.


Originally posted by The Buffalo Guy:
3. The location also seems to be lacking good airflow.The large intercooler kit comes with a rubber deflector flap that does a very good job of providing good ram air flow. My truck has responded very well to the intercooler during mountain climbs.


Originally posted by The Buffalo Guy:
4. The trait of the 6.5 to weep a little oil into the intake would greatly reduce the effeciency of the unit as it coats the intercooler. An oil trap should be added to recycle this oil and keep the unit clean.All turbo charged engines tend to do this. If you read any of the popular books on turbocharging, they all stress the need for periodic cleaning of the intercooler core internal passages. These books were written for gasoline engines. The intercooler is quite easy to remove for cleaning and it has two drain plugs.

Also, keep in mind that the volume of water (or water/alcohol) is taking up space that could be occupied by air. As I just towed to Las Vegas and back, it's hard for me to imagine hauling a big enough water tank to allow me to run the way I did on this trip. On Friday, November 7, 2003 I started driving in Las Vegas and stopped for some sleep at Colby, KS...994 miles later. I stopped for fuel four times...128 gallons worth. I was running at 75 mph for most of that time (except when slowed by curvy roads and high mountains). Most of that time I was running with boost pressure above 10 psi...often 13-14 psi. I don't know what mixture is used, but that would be a lot of water. If you run out, slow down because things heat up and power is gone.

For fairness, I'm not really against the water injection idea. I've been around its use in aircraft for a long time. However, those applications were for short time periods (takeoff) and not for cruise conditions. I just think it is being over sold a little and some misinformation is being spread about the intercooler application. I want to keep the discussion fair and balanced.

Also, I have refrained from commenting in this thread because you were specifically asking for input from people who used water injection. However, I believe it appropriate to chime in now because of my experience with the intercooler. Most of the concerns you have listed are not valid and will bias your decision...if you've not already made up your mind.

[ 11-11-2003, 06:52 AM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

[Kidd]

My problem with the intercooler is the location.. can't see how you would get any airflow on my truck due to the skid plate. It
extends from in front of the rad to about the middle of the oil pan. I also noted on last oil change a deep gouge right down the middle of the skid plate, probably from hitting a boulder. I seriously doubt the intercooler would have survived. If I could find one that mounts just behind the grill, would seriously consider it.
K.D.

[jspringator]

Ronniejoe:

My consideration of mist injection is based soley on cost vs benefit. I have never been out west, and if I do go, it will be a one time thing. I do go to Florida 3-4 times a year, where my biggest towing challange is Jellico mountain. Last trip, my highest EGT's were around 900 deg, post turbo, barely in the yellow, and then only for a short period of time. My speed goal is to keep the truck from downshifting, which it now does pretty well. I have added a new downpipe since then. I can install the mist injection myself, with a cost of approximately $500. An intercooler costs $1,300 for parts and at least $200 for labor to install it. I know it would be difficult to get someone local to install it. I could justify $500 for the purpose of potential engine longevity. But on an engine that already has 150,000 miles, it is hard to justify $1,500. For me, the question is not a choice between an intercooler or mist injection, but mist injection or nothing. If I do get it, the only reason would be to make the engine last to the magic 300,000 miles. I don't want to do anything that is going to negatively effect the reliability of the turbo or other engine component. I don't believe using alcohol for antifreeze fits my use criteria, but I could use pink pop antifreeze or something else if need be, or I could use it in summer only. Based on these parameters, yea or nea?

[Barry Nave]

Member say's newbe though I have been in and out on my member ship for 4yrs now.
Have ran water through eng. pre turbo with no sign's of turbo blade wear on the edge.
Intake gage shows lower temps by 80+*
System- 30gal tank,RV pump at 60 psi, Misting nozzle Full Cone 90*spray angle from McMaster-Carr with a flow rate @ 4.0 gph.
Don't remember supplyer for boost s/w though it is Adj. from as low as 5psi on up.
On off S/W is in dash and a light wired to boost S/W lets me know when inj comes on.


Jimbo I don't need that much water to stay cool! :cool:
Boost S/W goes to a relay to run pump.
I mix water with denature Alky @ 25%.
AS said, Great power gain you can fill.

[BuffaloGuy]

Bnave,
What are you using for an intake gauge? How much was your system? How long have you used it?

Ronniejoe,
Thanks for your input. I guess we could talk back and forth about this forever. The real test would be on a dyno or a hill pull on a hot summer day. Maybe it will happen next summer! Both systems have benefits and both systems have drawbacks. Without the numbers it's pretty hard to judge.

I think for $4-500 it's worth it for me. But I'm still gathering the facts.

Have a good one!
Ken

[Barry Nave]

Buffalo
Hand built.
Spent alot of time summer of 91 using different flow rate nozzles to see how much water was needed for Air intake temps.
Gauge is a Auto Meter tap in dowm stream of the turbo.
Flowing more water then needed did not lower AIT much so I backed down on the flow.
Cost
Tank $35
Pump $75
Boost S/W $ 45
Tubes,filter,fitting Ect. $70
:cool:

[BuffaloGuy]

Bnave,
Would you be willing to share the specifics of your system? If not here perhaps via e-mail? It sounds like you might have it down pat.
Ken

[Barry Nave]

Let me have time to dig out my paper work.
If I can get my wife to find a web page for me I can show pics.
I use to have a web with all of the doing on my truck, unless some one has web site I can get into?

[BETA]

Has anyone tried regular intercooling and water injection combined?

I was thinking of a system with 8 in the plenum injectors, that would start working at 6-7 PSI.

[Barry Nave]

Any one who would like to see my water injection can E Mail me @ bdnave@comcast.net

[Uncle Wally]

Beta - good idea.

Someone mentioned that there are pluses and minuses to each system. I wouldn't mind being informed on those. I could foresee some issues with water puddling in the cooler itself if you tried pre turbo injection. Injection into the plenum would require more expensive equipment to inject into a positive pressure atmosphere.

Any other thoughts?

Waldo

[BETA]

Let's try to find an inexpensive way to control the delivery of an electric pump, by means of the turbo boost, to get a near constant water/air ratio.

Who make proper nozzles?

I'm going to check the web for "water injection"!

[gmctd]

GM Port Fuel Injection systems used a regulator in the fuel rail, vacuum controlled to vary inj pressure according to engine demand. Excess fuel returned to the tank.
Aftermarket "billet" regulators were available which could be easily converted for boost.
Buick PFI systems ran around 35psi.

[BuffaloGuy]

There is a kit out there that does that already. I like that idea the best... Go post turbo with sensor that regulates the pump speed and therefore the amount delivered, thereby compensating for the different plenium pressure. This guy has got some great nozzles too.

Check it out at: www.snowperformance.net (http://www.snowperformance.net)

I haven't seen one of these kits but I have talked to a guy who's using it and he really likes it. The Stage 1 is the basic - turns on when boost reaches a desired level. The Stage 2 includes the variable pump speed relay (or whatever he calls it).

After studying my boost with different loads and conditions it is pretty evident that the Stage 2 would be the better kit.

Let me know what you all think.
Ken

[pannhead]

if some-one wants to save money....go to turbomirage.com..go to diy water injection and then parts list..most of these systems all use the shurflo 60 psi pump and then put their stickers on it etc...might be able to save some $,i would also get a top notch nozzle from aquamist...seen 'em on ebay for about $20

[jspringator]

How hard would this be to put on? How does it differ from Heath's Kit? Is a 2 quart tank large enough? Where could you mount the tank, since it has to be ABOVE the outlet? Inquiring minds want to know! This sounds better than intercooling for my intermitent needs.

[BuffaloGuy]

Hey Panhead, great ideas. Got a lead on the boost sensor and pump control too?

James, I did the math and figured that if you were pulling a heavy load at max boost 14psi, with the recommended nozzle, you would need about 12-15 gal. of water between fill-ups. I've been corresponding via email a fair amount with the guy at Snow Performance. Nice guy and willing to answer all my dumb questions.

I don't think it's that important to have the tank higher than the pump. I'll bet this is mostly so it will be self priming. Lots of guys have the tank in the bed of their truck and I suspect they just put the pump at the lowest spot so it will stay primed. I'd also add a drain valve at the same location for winter shut down.

I think the whole key to a home made system is the boost sensor and the pump regulator thingy. Anybody got a lead?
Ken

[slagona]

I did some research on water injection a year or so ago. It's nice to see a water injection thread on this forum take off. A year ago there were little or no response to any questions on water injection.

My recommendations would be to use the 100 psi pump - it's only about $30 more than the 60 psi and allows you to use a better nozzle - smaller sized water droplets (less than 10 microns). The smaller the better when injecting after the turbo. It also helps combat the existing pressure of the intake.

I would also go with the aquamist nozzles.

There were several great websites on DIY water injection, but most have seemed to disappear in the last year or so.

[jeffreydmet]

Something to think about. A few weeks ago I set up a crude mist injector using an old windsheild washer pump. One thing you need to make sure of with any design is that water doesn't drip in when the engine is off. It doesn't take much and the truck doesn't want to start (experience). Way to much and you would blow a head, get water in your oil or rust cylinder bores.

[pannhead]

a water shut-off solenoid is a must and would be included in any basic system..this solenoid is always in the closed position and only opens when the system is energized...this is a very important piece of the system and worth every penny of $30

[slagona]

Of the 8-10 websites I had marked, only a few are still out there.

Here are a few that have good info on water injection systems. The water cooling brakes is included as it is a good source for links to parts...

http://www.darklightning.com
http://www.opentracking.com/water_cooling_brakes.htm
http://www.turbomirage.com/water.html

[BETA]

Here's one more:
www.aquamist.co.uk/index.html (http://www.aquamist.co.uk/index.html)

[Marty Lau]

Checkout Bill Heaths info.
www.turbo-master.com/?page=prodinfo&id=412 (http://www.turbo-master.com/?page=prodinfo&id=412)

[Tomar]

I had an air to air intercooler on my 94 turbo diesel dualie. I purchased mist injection system from heath diesel a month ago . There is no comparison . The mist injection is great. My exhaust temps run lower and gained more power and torque. I ran a test with it. With the air to air intercooler I ran a hill marked off and reached 57 mph with trailer. Same hill marked off with trailer with mist injection ran 69 mph. I rest my case. The purchase was well worth it. Everything you need comes in the kit but the water.If you have any problems installing it ,Bill from Heath diesel will take you through it . He is a great guy.

[BuffaloGuy]

Hey thanks for the report tomar. Since you have both an air to air intercooler and a mist system I am wondering...

Did you get more of a benefit going from no intercooler to air to air? Or did you get more benefit going from the air to air to adding the mist?

What boost pressure is yours set to come on at? How big of a tank do you use?
Ken

[Dieselboy]

I know some were looking for a place to host their pictures, and since I'm also curious about water injection, I'd love to see them too.

I would be more than happy to host them on my site. Just email me: david@oliverdiesel.com