You want to take a shot at my latest, "glitch"? [Archive]

Pipeline Mechanic

11-04-2009, 21:18

I have put a few hundred miles on my little project 6.2 dressed as a 6.5T in a 1995 K2500 Auto.

Here are some symptoms and tinkering I have done, since I REALLY wanna use this for my parts runner at the shop.

OK, I keep getting EGR/Baro Pressure High and Wastegate Controller Malfunction codes.
So I cut a piece of plate and blocked the EGR by sandwiching it between the EGR Valve and Intake.
Very little improvement from it.

I "feel" like the Turbo isn't boosting "enough", but I am used to bigger diesels too. There is what seems like a "dead" spot around 1800rpm
that coincides with a noticeable vibration. It black smokes like a freight train, I mean you literally can't see traffic in the rear view mirror. If you
go to WOT from a stop it acts like it overfuels and can't clear it, then of course misses terribly.

Its latest symptom is to start and run long enough to move about 5' and then shutoff AFTER it has been driven and warmed up to operating temp.
Then there is a no fuel condition but you can sit there for about 20min and it doesn't even turn over a full revolution and runs fine.
I put a verified working shutoff solenoid on with no remedy.

I have a remote FSD Heatsink mounted to the intake as seen in some of the installation pictures I took. It has about 40K mi on it,
and most of them were during North East Montana winters. (Cooling wasn't a problem, trust me!)
Is it time for a new one?

I have a Matco Determinator Scan Tool, and am actually surprised at the information I can retrieve with it, on such an old model.
Trouble is I don't have a "comparable" to verify the info with. The one thing I am not getting is boost pressure, but fuel metering,
injection timing, injector PWM and voltage for all of the vacuum valves is there.

I know I regurgitated a lot of info at one time, so is there anyone here who wants to take a crack at it?

john8662

11-05-2009, 07:54

Sounds like you have no boost whatsoever.

The components of this system are the vacuum pump, vacuum lines, wastegate solenoid, and the wastegate actuator on the turbo itself.

From the code it's more like the solenoid is bad, or it's not getting an electrical connection.

Do the standard checks of the turbo system. Verify that you have vacuum off the line from the pump. I'd verify this at the pump itself, then at the line where the solenoids reside (above the valve cover).

If you have vaccum there (around 20 Hg), then check the vaccum on the output of the wastegate solenoid, and then at the wastegate actuator. If you have none at idle, the solenoid isn't operating and opening the vacuum circuit.

For the fuel shutoff, are you seeing any other codes, perhaps any for the injection pump? If no codes and you're getting stalling, check your fuel pressure to the pump, then suspect the PMD, I think they'd fail in a freezer. You need another known good PMD to mount for testing anyways, if it behaves differently, then you know that's the source.

Pipeline Mechanic

11-05-2009, 08:15

I forgot to add that I installed a new vaccum pump and that I am getting controlling voltage to the solenoid. I havent put a gauge on it to verify actual vaccum pressure yet. I did have an assistant hold the truckin drive with the brakes and rev the engine and can see the actuator for the wastegate moving. The turbo had no end play at the shaft when I put it back in. It may be time to take it apart for a closer look.

On a PMD failure is there any similar symptoms to what I have above? just curious.

Robyn

11-05-2009, 09:17

20+" HG at the wate gate actuator (At the turbo)

If less than 20 HG at idle then suspect the waste gate solenoid on the LH VC of being bad.

The PMD is likely the issue with the stalling.

May also be the issue with the coal black smoke too but likely a lack of boost is more the issue.

You could have a Barro sensor issue but too many codes speaks more or voltage or ground issues.

Be sure you have 14V going to the junction box +++ supply stud

Be sure the two grounds at the wiring harness at the RH rear of the intake manifold are intact and connected good.

Be sure the battery grounds and +++ are also in good order.

I have seen PMD's with less than 20K on them fail.

Best of luck

Missy

JohnC

11-05-2009, 10:59

DmaxMaverick

11-05-2009, 11:11

I think the idle spec for vacuum on the wastegate is 14". You should not see it move. Already something is wrong. Boost and EGR codes together sounds like a broken vacuum line or something else affecting both systems. The EGR system monitors vacuum, not EGR, so blocking the EGR off will not affect any codes.

Neither of these systems will cause stalling.

Correct. The modulated vacuum at the actuator should be 14-15". Vacuum at the pump outlet, and every place not modulated should be 20"+, 25 is optimum, 22-23" is typical. This is not considering the accuracy of your vacuum measuring device. If it's in the ballpark, it's OK. It just isn't that critical. I also agree with the rest of John's comments.

john8662

11-05-2009, 11:15

As far as the turbo itself, you'll need to look at the wastegate arm, see how much play the arm has and how freely it moves.

It should be easy to rotate it's designed plane, and not have much slack in and out.

You will have to remove the wastegate actuatuator arm by removing the E clip to check this condition.

Basically what we're getting at here is that the wastegate arm has to be able to move and not stick open, it also doesn't need slack that will cause binding or mis-alignment of the valve.

If everying on the turbo appears to be in order (before tearing it part) you'll need to check for any possible intake leaks that will leak pressure. The boot between the intake manifold, and the upper and lower gaskets. Also if there is an issue with sealing (even though modified) with the EGR tower, this can cause you boost loss also. A temporary boost gauge would be ideal for troubleshooting. The easiest install is using a "boost bolt."

Robyn

11-05-2009, 13:15

You need to check the vacuum at the wastegate actuator.

If that sucker is moving just by reving the engine there are issues.

The arm on the gate should be pulled all the way towards the little actuator POD and be held firm during most normal operations.

I suspect your wastegate solenoid is toast.

This is a common failure on these.

Missy

DmaxMaverick

11-05-2009, 14:22

......or you have vacuum lines misrouted. One common, is at the WG solenoid. If they are backwards, the WG won't work properly.

Pipeline Mechanic

11-05-2009, 17:55

I did not have a chance to get back to it today. Vacuum hoses are all new and properly routed, I asked for a diagram here and found it when I put the fan shroud back on! I will get my Tetragauge out tomorrow and see what the results are.

So there is no way to test the PMD without just changing it? No SES code thrown from a malfunction?

BTW the EGR/Baro code is the same code, helpful huh?

john8662

11-05-2009, 18:40

Stalling with Injection Pump codes = need new pump.
Stalling without Injection Pump Codes = need new PMD

There isn't a code for the PMD, only to use a known good one to verify yours has or is failing.

DickWells

11-05-2009, 19:37

Don't know if this will help you in any way, or if you still may have a need to be interested in it, but anyway, here goes. I ran for, litterally years, with the vacuum solenoid by-passed. With great results, too. I simply put a double ended barb fitting right up there at the solenoid by pulling both hoses off and jumping them together. Had to, on the road, to get my boost back. Ended up leaving it that way. I'm only telling you this, to give you a way to test out the solenoid part of the vacuum system. My 95 Burb ran very well without the solenoid involved. Still does.
Good luck, Dick.

Pipeline Mechanic

11-06-2009, 17:49

I got the Tetra gauge out today and I had a vacuum leak. I fixed the
leak and noticed an improvement. I am getting a lot of gray smoke now,
with a more positive throttle response. I am guessing it is time to source
a PMD, six foot harness, and a new tensioner pulley.

Dick,

Are you saying you made a tee to equalize pressure to both sides of the solenoid and have full vacuum to wastegate?

JohnC

11-06-2009, 20:57

If you bypass the solenoid it *will* overboost and the PCM will reduce the fuel rate in an attempt to keep things in check. Best case is you'll get reduced power. Worst case, heat damage to the engine internals.

JohnC

11-06-2009, 21:00

BTW the EGR/Baro code is the same code, helpful huh?

Yes. They're both the same sensor. If it's out of range, it's out of range.

DickWells

11-06-2009, 21:18

Never had a boost issue, heat issue, or any kind of code set, other than the code 86? Had Kennedy's boost fooler in there before the vacuum solenoid went south. Maximum boost would go to 15, on occasion, with EGT, going to about 950 (in the down pipe). First thing I did was buy a new solenoid, which lasted long enough to tow from E. Texas to Oregon. Started out for the coast from LaPine, Or, one morning and lost boost and power. Jumped out and jumped the solenoid, and never went back for another one. That was in 01. I towed all over the country, at least 20K a year, through 05 without a problem. Don't know why??? Still have the Burb with 186K on it, and still love to drive it, summers when we're home. It has skads more power, now than it ever had when I bought it with 63K on it in 98.
I wasn't suggesting that someone else should run without the solenoid. Just a way of testing/isolating a potential problem. If I had had a problem with it, I would have had to put it back like it was, just never occured. GMCTD told me once, why I was able to do that, but I can't remember.
Dick

DickWells

11-06-2009, 21:29

Just thought of something else, anent the vac. solenoid. I see that the unit in the start of the thread is maybe a 95, too, but could be the electronics are different (different year than mine)? I seem to remember that some of the ECM electronics were changed during those years, and that maybe my 95 - 2500 F-code would tolerate the absence of the vac solenoid, when some others would not?:confused:

JohnC

11-07-2009, 13:37

The boost fooler tricked the PCM into thinking the boost was still in range. That's why it didn't defuel. The EGT before the turbo would have been a lot higher. Forcing it through the turbine housing without the extra area of the wastegate causes a greater temperature drop than normal. Also, it IAT would be higher due to the extra boost, unless you have an intercooler.

DickWells

11-09-2009, 20:18

It does have the larger SpearCo IC., and an up-graded intake. One of the best, most noticeable adders was the Phazer gear set. It's a solid feeling engine, for sure. Any time the EGT went up above 800, or so, I'd back off. It seldom happened, I wouldn't let er run that way. I was wondering about that boost fooler. BTW, I never did take the Banks chip out of the ECM, even when I went to the mech. IP.
Thanks.
Dick

JohnC

11-10-2009, 12:38

... even when I went to the mech. IP.

OK, that's why it didn't de-fuel...

And the intercooler is why it didn't melt down.

Move the EGT probe to the other side of the turbo for a thrill...

DickWells

11-11-2009, 18:25

But, I had something like 80K miles on it with the electronic pump. Never a hitch, other than the odd bad ground, and the more odd bad wire in that little molded plastic block next to the IP, which had one broken wire out of what, 12? Took me a while to find that one, during which time, I went and bought a new FSD! That was in Florida, on the road, towing. Nice to have these things happen when you're 1500 miles from home. The only time in 180 K miles that the beast left me stopped on the highway, was fixable in two minutes, IF I'd had my wits about me. That Banks chip had fallen out of it's sockets. I actually had taken the ECM out and checked the connectors, but never thought to shake the box! Cost me 125 bucks at a dealer in Pheonix to find it and put it back. The only time I ever had the thing in a garage other than my own.

Pipeline Mechanic

11-13-2009, 17:01

I still have not touched my Chevy project. I keep forgetting to order an extension harness for the PMD and getting a new PMD to boot.

I have a 24v Cummins in the shop that is knocking pretty bad, since it is a paying customer. I have been more interested in it.

We have been cleaning and painting, epoxying the floors and we finally are open for business....

Thanks guys and gals! Later!

NASFD35

11-15-2009, 10:46

I’m having the same problems with my truck as well. I’ve already replaced the Map senor, wastegate sensor and all of the vacuum hoses, so the remaining things are a vacuum problem and the PMD. Also, the turbo and EGR are new. If I understand this right I should have 20hg at the pump and 14 at the wastegate, right? And if all of the vacuum checks out it’s the PMD, right?

JohnC

11-15-2009, 19:59

I should have 20hg at the pump and 14 at the wastegate, right?

Correct. More than 20 from the pump, 14-15 at the wastegate actuator.

And if all of the vacuum checks out it’s the PMD, right?

Now you've lost me. The PMD and the vacuum are independent systems. What is your original complaint?

NASFD35

11-16-2009, 05:01

I’m having the same problems with my truck as well.
My original complaint is the same as Pipeline Mechanic's....blowing black smoke, stalling and hard to restart....etc.

Forgot to add. I also replaced the lift pump due to a condition where the truck shutters/buck between 50-60mph.

Checked all of the vacuum pressures this morning. 15 at the wastegate actuator, 25 at the pump.

JohnC

11-16-2009, 16:37

Does it blow black smoke then stall then it's hard to restart, or are you having 3 potentially unrelated problems?

Do you have any DTC codes stored?

NASFD35

11-16-2009, 18:44

Does it blow black smoke then stall then it's hard to restart, or are you having 3 potentially unrelated problems?

Do you have any DTC codes stored?
The stall and hard to restart happen at the same time, but the black smoke happens anytime I put my foot to the floor.

The only codes showing have to do with the wastgate senor. The vacuum into and out of the senor check out and an ohm meter is showing the sensor as good.

JohnC

11-16-2009, 19:03

Pipeline Mechanic

11-16-2009, 20:55

NASFD35,

That bucking/shuddering issue you had, was that around 1800RPM?

The reason I ask is that will be my last symptom to try to cure, mine is more of a vibration/miss really. I havent verified PSI at the lift pump yet, I am still on baby steps with this "project".

NASFD35

11-17-2009, 18:45

NASFD35

11-17-2009, 18:48

I'd replace the wastegate solenoid if the wastegate itself is free, the wires to the solenoid are not broken and the wastegate controller doesn't leak. They get sluggish and cause codes which then cause low boost.

Then, I'd follow the troubleshooting process discussed in the "stalling" thread at the top of this forum. Sounds like you may have a loose connection somewhere, although it may turn out to be a faulty PMD.
A new wastegate is ordered. I'll checkout the stalling thread for other options, but I've already oredered a PMD. So, I guess that'll leave me two options. (1) that will resolve the problem, (2) I'll have a problem somewhere else, and 2 working PMD's....just in case one fails.:)

PS...where is this "stalling thread" you mentioned?

Pipeline Mechanic

11-17-2009, 20:01

NASFD35,

If you are low on storage, I can store one of those PMD modules for you! :D

JohnC

11-19-2009, 10:54

PS...where is this "stalling thread" you mentioned?

Oops, sorry. I think it used to be in this forum, but now it's in the 6.2/6.5 Tech forum.

NASFD35

11-24-2009, 06:17

Oops, sorry. I think it used to be in this forum, but now it's in the 6.2/6.5 Tech forum.
John,
Sorry to be a pain, but can you specify which stalling thread you're talking about? I looked and found a few of them. I noticed that the last two times I had a problem with the truck it was cold and raining. Each time, after the truck sat all night, it would start fine.....run for a few seconds.....then shut off and was hard to restart. That's not to say it only happens at those time (I've had starting issues when it's hot or cold, day or night, sunny or raining), it was just that last two time were similiar. This morning I had to get a jump start to get the truck started cause the battery went dead while I was cranking it. Now I'm starting to wonder about a short, but I'll be damned if I can find one.

PS.......I'm still waiting for the PMD I ordered. And just curious, does the vacuum pump have anything to do with starting and normal operations, or only the turbo boost?

JohnC

11-24-2009, 11:05

This one. (http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=2938)

The vacuum pump has no bearing on starting.

NASFD35

11-24-2009, 11:12

This one. (http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=2938)

The vacuum pump has no bearing on starting.
Cool, Thanx

I'm starting to wonder if I'm having multiple little problems.....

NASFD35

12-04-2009, 12:34

Ok......so the PMD came in and I have all of the other parts on my work bench (gaskets, etc,). Before I attempt to mount this in a new location, do I need a resistor in the PMD? I ordered on with it, but it never came and I wasn't planning on taking the old PMD off.

More Power

12-04-2009, 13:01

Yes, you'll need a resistor....

Jim

NASFD35

12-04-2009, 13:24

According to the person I bought the PMD from, the resistor is already installed. Where should I look for it, in the cable or in the PMD?

JohnC

12-04-2009, 13:36

In the plug socket of the PMD. It's a tiny circuit board that fits down over the pins. It is the same shape as the plug.

NASFD35

12-04-2009, 14:13

Ok....thanks. It's there.

Pipeline Mechanic......If I can find time this weekend between hunting I'll put the new parts on and let you know if it fixes my problems,

Pipeline Mechanic

12-11-2009, 15:30

Well did you get time to deal with it? :D

NASFD35

12-19-2009, 11:14

Hmmmmm…..where to start.
The first PMD I ordered didn’t work when it came in, so I had to ship it back and wait for the second one.
In the meantime, while I was waiting for the PMD I started to re-check vacuum hoses. I’ve done this on a previous occasions….from replacing all of the hoses to checking the vacuum with a gauge…..and everything has always check-out. I also checked the movement of the wastegate and everything appeared to move freely. On this particular day, when I disconnected the waste actuator, the wastegate damper moved towards the firewall. Once this happened the black smoke issue stopped.
Now, the second PMD comes in. Hooked it up and it appears that the “miss” around 50-60 mph has stopped, but I’d like to wait longer before I confirm that. The problem with the truck shutting off is still an issue and it looks like it’s getting worse. Next item to change out is the oil pressure switch.
So, the short story is that I’m still working on it, and it looks like I do have multiple problems…..

NASFD35

12-21-2009, 20:48

The next item I'm thinking about changing is the OPS. The only question I have about this is; My oil pressure gauge has been working fine. Is this an indication that the switch is working normally?

JohnC

12-21-2009, 21:12

No. They are completely independent electrical circuits.

NASFD35

12-22-2009, 09:47

Ok, so I changed the Oil Pressure Switch. The old switched looked new and I could see where the previous owner had changed the switch out. Anyhow, there’s no change in the truck’s performance. Now the service engine light has come on and stays on. It’s throwing a 31 code for the MAP Sensor, which is new. Just to recap, the MAP Senor, Wastegate Solenoid, OPS and PMD are all new. The data from the computer is as follows;
MAP Voltage is 3.96
Barometric PSI is 24.6 which is equal to the outside PSI
The thing that got our attention is the Boost PSI. It was reading 15 PSI with the truck off. Should it have that reading with the engine off? The 15 PSI is the same reading with the truck at an idle. Will the Boost Sensor throw the MAP Off?
If someone could tell me the color, shape and a description of the gremlin living under my hood that would be the BIGGEST help.
Pipeline, is any of this helping you?

DmaxMaverick

12-22-2009, 09:56

It should read about 15 PSI, off or at idle. 15 PSI (actually ~14.7 PSIA at sealevel) is one atmosphere (this will vary, depending on the sensitivity, accuracy and resolution of the measuring device). PSIG (what you see on a gage) is the departure from PSIA, and it does not take into consideration the barometric pressure or altitude. Zero PSIG at sealevel is the same as 14.7 PSIA, for all intents and purposes. The PCM reads MAP as PSIA.

JohnC

12-22-2009, 16:36

Yeah, the "A" in "MAP" stands for "absolute".

DTC 31 is not for the MAP sensor. Do you have EGR? If so, it's probably a bad EGR solenoid. If not, it's the Baro sensor.

Pipeline Mechanic

12-26-2009, 16:58

NASFD35,

Well I have a new lift pump to install, but I am down in my back.
I have found the perfect solution for mine, I have a guy who wants to
trade me a cosmetically rough 3500 Dodge 12v 4X4 cab and chassis
for it!

I am installing the new lift pump and have explained to him that there
is a problem with the wastegate solenoid and that it would be better
off if it was mechanically controlled. He is also aware of the fact that my DW
has forbid me to waste anymore money on the Chevy Diesel project since
I have more invested in it than it is worth.