Starter problem?

[Subzilla]

The '86 gave me a scare today. Been starting pretty good, although the starting has seem a bit slow just at random for the last year. I've been thinking the batteries were giving up but it never "didn't start". Until this afternoon.

After driving it, stopping and starting, most of the day, went to crank it that one time and pow, nothing - not even the solenoid click. I had power to lights, blower motor, windows so I'm thinking batteries are good.

Fellow came over with jumper battery and still nothing. Waited a few minutes and it cranked over about half a turn, then back to a solenoid click, then nothing. Seemed to alternate between the solenoid clicking and absolutely nothing when I turned the key different times.

Checked battery connections and those seemed good. Crawled under it to check tightness of connections and those seemed good. After about 45 minutes of scratching head and poking around the wires, had the wife hit the ignition again, and I saw a spark fly from the positive connection at the starter but still no cranking. Hit the key again, saw spark again and then she SPUN and fired right up. WHAT?? :eek:

Drove it back home and parked it. Shut it down, hit the key 3 more times and she fired right up all 3 times without a miss!

Is this a bad starter indicator?? What would make it not spin or even click, then decide to fire up perfectly multiple times? It would seem like if I had a connection problem, it would have acted more consistent every time. I didn't have time tonight to really trace and inspect the gound connections or really check the positive connections.

Thanks!!

[DmaxMaverick]

Sparking at the batt+ cable lug? Or the starter field lug?

Either way, it sounds like a poor connection at the solenoid (batt+ cable lug), which will also prevent the solenoid "clicking". Or, the starter could still be very healthy, with only the solenoid having failed. They're cheap (compared to a complete starter, about $20), and no more difficult to replace than a starter (the starter must be R/R'd).

[Subzilla]

Thanks for the response Maverick. Couldn't really tell where the spark came from as I was kinda shocked and surprised when it happened. Plus I didn't have much light to see much of anything.

Could just a bad connection cause the no-start, then start condition? Again, after it finally started, I drove it 30 miles home and then it started another 3 times sitting in the garage just like normal. Haven't tried it this morning.

[Robyn]

OH Yessssss indeed.

Take some time and remove the starter from the truck.

You will likley find that the large stud that the + cable bolts too is either very dirty, arced up and burnt or all the above.

I would suggest you remove the solenoid and replace it with a fresh one.

Be sure the cable end (bolts to the solenoid) is clean and free of any corrosion.

Depending if this is a factory cable it could have a soldered on (Or crimped) terminal end.

Sand or lightly run a file across the temminal to be sure it is nice and clean before reuse.

While the starter is off I would pop the metal end cover off and take a peek at the brushes.

Just mark the cover and then gently remove the bolts (Very long) and slip the cover off.

If the brushes are in good shape, put A DAB of light (white grease) in the bushing and reinstall the cover.

Replace the solenoid and let it rip.. :)

Your sparking could also be coming from the connection of the starter to the solenoid itself. (where the starter windings are connected at the opposite side of the solenoid)

Time and use wears on these beasts.

The 86 should have the large direct drive starter.
Unless someone has replaced it with a gear drive unit.

Both types will fit and work. The older direct drive starters are about half again the size and weight of the gear drive starters.

The gear drives are handy in that you can handle them more easily.

The direct drive units are beastly and have some real windings in them and will take a buttload more abuse as compared to the gear drive ones.

This is a great time to check and clean all the battery terminals and cable ends.

Side termninal cables have a nasty habit of hiding a lot of SIN under the jacket (red and black covers)

The cable core where they are crimped on corrodes and degrades to the point that it can be next to useless but still look fine.

The grounds are also suspect even at the engine block.

If the cables have a lot of time on them, now would be a great time to toss them and get fresh ones in. Winter will be here before ya know it. Working on this stuff in the cold wet and nasty SUCKS

Good luck and keep us posted

Missy

[DmaxMaverick]

Thanks for the response Maverick. Couldn't really tell where the spark came from as I was kinda shocked and surprised when it happened. Plus I didn't have much light to see much of anything.

Could just a bad connection cause the no-start, then start condition? Again, after it finally started, I drove it 30 miles home and then it started another 3 times sitting in the garage just like normal. Haven't tried it this morning.

With the start - no-start issue, it's more likely a poor connection at the solenoid, especially since you notice sparking. This explains the lack of clicking when it didn't start. If the connection is good, and if it were sparking elsewhere, it should still click in, even if it didn't turn.

As Robyn said, it's a good idea to get a look at the brushes/bearings while it's out. However, I suggest using a synthetic/dielectric type grease, as the light white grease burns off under extreme heat/pressure. If worn, have a local motor shop go through it, opposed to replacing. This, I/we've determined, results in a much better product than a parts store replacement, and usually much less expensive.

[Subzilla]

I'm off to the garage floor then! I'll do all of the above and let ya'll know. Thanks!!

The funny thing (at least now) about all of this is I actually had my old boat on the trailer attached to the Blazer sitting in the boat ramp parking lot when all of this happened. I was there to test my work on the boat as I posted a few weeks ago here about a stalling/fuel starvation problem. I'm thinking I found that problem - pulled the fuel tank pick-up tube and found a glob of Permatex-type silicone stuck on the screen inside the tube. Not much flow can occur through that! I had prepared the boat for unloading when I got the Blazer no-start. Wisdom told me to not shut the Blazer down so needless to say, I didn't get the boat wet and test my "fix". My excitement vanished quickly.

And the Sub was at home with some unbled brakes after my rear brake rebuild. There's only so many hours in a Saturday. Will finish that first!

[john8662]

Sparking at the batt+ cable lug? Or the starter field lug?

Either way, it sounds like a poor connection at the solenoid (batt+ cable lug), which will also prevent the solenoid "clicking". Or, the starter could still be very healthy, with only the solenoid having failed. They're cheap (compared to a complete starter, about $20), and no more difficult to replace than a starter (the starter must be R/R'd).

I'm interested in where you can find a solenoid for the 28MT or even the 27MT starters for only $20? Seriously, I'd buy a few! The parts stores around here have quoted almost the same as a whole starter if you want just the solenoid...

J

[Robyn]

Yess
The rebuilt stuff that comes from the parts stores can range from Zero No good Nada to a minus zip point $hit and a full on 10 on the aggravation scale.

I always use a local rebuilder. The do good work and use top quality parts.

If I am in hurry I will rip the starter apart myself and fix it.

As long as the fields are good and the brushes are not gone as well as the commutator burnt all to rat patoooee these are an easy fix

Sparks though is generally just a loose connection either at the cable or the connection from the starter to the solenoid.

Best

Missy

[Subzilla]

You people are goooood, really good. You hit the bolt right on the head, so to speak.

Took me about an hour to get the starter to the garage floor - not something I want to do in a parking lot somewhere in the dark or cold. Problem wasn't immediately evident until I went to remove the solenoid. I started unscrewing the bolt that holds the grounding strap(I guess??) to the solenoid. The bolt head sheared off with minimal effort. Then I saw tons of burnt, spark arcing marks under the head of the bolt as it connects to the strap!! This, for sure, is where I witnessed the sparks yesterday. It appears either the bolt was loose or may have corroded over time enough to create a gap, which then led to the off and on connection with the fireworks in between. Given the amount of burnt surface area around the bolt head, it must have been doing this for quite a while.

Didn't pull the cover off the starter yet but I'll do that tomorrow after work, install a new solenoid and clean all the connections I can find.

One other thing, the starter had a Duralast sticker (Automoan brand). Previous owner must have installed it.

Thanks for ya'lls help. My DP membership once again pays for itself multifold! Can't say enough about the great people here! I'll let you know how she does.

[Subzilla]

Just checked Advance Auto website. Standard solenoid is $16 and premium is $28. I assume it is for my direct drive unit - I'll find out when I get there.

[DmaxMaverick]

I'm interested in where you can find a solenoid for the 28MT or even the 27MT starters for only $20? Seriously, I'd buy a few! The parts stores around here have quoted almost the same as a whole starter if you want just the solenoid...

J

A little more than I paid last, but not much.

Just checked Autozone. $15-30, depending on brand/application.

gmpartsdirect.com gets $39 for a Delco.

I don't know where you are buying yours, but I think I'd quit.

[Subzilla]

OK, I'm over thinking this thing. If the connection from the solenoid to the starter was bad, why would that cause the solenoid to not function? Wouldn't that just keep the starter motor itself from functioning?

And is that flat strap between the starter and solenoid a ground or the positive?

Still planning to pick up new solenoid on the way home today.

[john8662]

Yeah, Oreilly wanted over $100 for the solenoid, I'll check elsewhere for sure, they're not on my good side with a lot of things as of late, thanks for the hint.

J

[DmaxMaverick]

OK, I'm over thinking this thing. If the connection from the solenoid to the starter was bad, why would that cause the solenoid to not function? Wouldn't that just keep the starter motor itself from functioning?

And is that flat strap between the starter and solenoid a ground or the positive?

Still planning to pick up new solenoid on the way home today.

That flat strap connection from the solenoid to the starter is the field winding lug. It powers the EM field and the brushes. Positive, NOT a ground. The ground is completed through the housing contact with the engine block.

If the connection large lug at the solenoid is weak, energizing the solenoid (turning the key to start) will cause it to lose the circuit. This usually causes the repeated clicking, a single click, or nothing at all.

The solenoid does 2 things: a mechanical and an electrical function. It engages the starter drive (the gear to the flywheel), and completes the high current circuit to the starter field.