'02 Injectors or not

[denverdale]

Have an '02 LB7 that just recently started blowing BLACK Smoke under heavy load or especially when I floor it and it downshifts. I run an EDGE/Attitude and tow a 13000 lb trailer. The smoke occurs with or without the trailer and with the EDGE set on 0 (Stock). While towing, I usually have the EDGE set on level 2.

This truck has never blown black smoke like this until recently.

I did a search on here and read that a restriced air flow could cause these symptoms. I did recently replace my air cleaner and I will check that first.

My 7 yr/ 200000 mile warrenty has expired. The truck was purchased new in June of 02 and has 82000 miles on it.

Any help or adivse for this dummy is appreciated.

DenverDale

[madmatt]

talk to your dealer anyway and see if they're willing to offer goodwill assistance. we do here quite often here out to about 6 months out.

[OC_DMAX]

Check to make sure your intercooler tube on the drivers side down by the steering box does not have a hole in it. A number of people have experienced holes being worn into the aluminum tube, which would result in the loss of some boost which in turn would create some of the conditions you mention. Just a thought and worthy of a check,,,,,

(Note: my '02 had a partially worn thru tube, caught it in time.)

[denverdale]

Thanks for the tip OC DMAX. I'll have to check it on Sunday I guess. I will be in a 4th of July Parade tomorrow morning and be at a square dance tomorrow night. I sure hope it is a simple problem. I have been watching my boost lately and it doesn't seem very high.

Thanks again.

denverdale

[denverdale]

Well, I have changed the air filter and after driving it today, I am convinced that I either have an egr problem or an injector problem. With edge juice set on level 2, if I kick it in the a$$, boost goes up to about 19 - 21 and then falls off and the black smoke rolls. If I set the edge to level 0, the same thing happens only less black smoke.
Based on the above, what would you think the problem is?

I did pick up some diesel fuel additive and injector cleaner and will problably fill up the truck tomorrow and add the cleaner at that time.

If I need to replace injectors, how hard a job is that. I have not twisted wrenches on the Duramax but have restored vehicles from frame up in the past so I have some mechanical ability.

Thanks for any input.

DenverDale

[DmaxMaverick]

Doesn't sound like injectors, they wouldn't effect the boost. If it defuels, there should be no black smoke (no fuel = no smoke).

Sounds like your wastegate is dumping after pressure is built up. Look for a hole/crack in the WG pressure hose (goes from the compressor to the WG actuator, easily seen on top of the engine). If that checks out, your WG actuator diaphragm is probably damaged (hole or crack). Test the actuator by applying less than 30 PSI shop air and watch/listen for an air leak.

You can check the WG actuator by temporarily wiring the WG closed. Test drive again, and the boost shouldn't fall off. If it does, you have an intake air loss somewhere else. Possibly a collapsing air filter or intake pipe, if that's possible, or another obstruction.

[denverdale]

Dmax Maverick
Should I be able to move the lever on the waste gate with the engine turned off? I didn't find any obvious leak in the hose going to the diaphram. I will try to get some air to the control tonight. My back is tied up in knots today so it is hard to get much done.

Thanks for your reply.

Dale

[DmaxMaverick]

It shouldn't move by hand. It's under about 40 pounds (a guess) of spring tension. It takes about 15 PSI boost pressure to move the WG off its seat. The diaphragm is about 3 square inches (another guess), so that's about 45 pounds of force against it. I'm guessing based on my observations, but it's probably pretty close. I've never had a reason to investigate it further.

If you "wire" the wastegate closed, and you get no smoke during a test drive, you can at least narrow it down to that part of the system. It shouldn't overboost at stock power and an unloaded truck. If you try this with the Edge turned up, or with a heavy load or trailer, it will overboost, and the PCM will defuel (limp mode and SES lamp).

In any case, it should not dump boost and still smoke under normal circumstances. When the PCM defuels, there should be no fuel to cause smoke.

Also, as mentioned above, check the entire plumbing between the turbo and intake plenum, including the intercooler. You could have a hose clamp loose, or a hose blowing off. This condition shouldn't "cure" itself, and is usually very noisy (anything from air rushing to a loud whistle/squeal, to a Guinness Book record fart). If this is happening (loose clamp/hose), it should build boost to a specific level, then hold while it's making the noise. Generally, when a hose blows off, it stays blown off. If the hoses are in place and tight, you shouldn't be able to move them by hand (where they connect at the pipe). They should be very solid.

[denverdale]

Hey DmaxMaverick

Hope your still out there. I tested the wastegate today. I disconnected the wastgate actuator rod from the wastegate pivot arm. The wastegate pivot arm will move freely about 90 degrees. The waste gate actuator rod will extend a little less than 1/2 inch. That sure is a tight place to get into.
So here I set with my Wild Turkey and Water and I am thinking that I just need to take it into the dealer to have them diagnose it. I do have some fuel conditioner/injector cleaner that I will put in tomorrow when I fill up. One quart treats 40 gallons and I have a 45 gal. fuel tank.

Any other suggestions????

Thanks for all your input.

Dale

[denverdale]

I had another thought today as I was installing new shocks on the vehicle. Since I have an Edge/Attitude, could the edge have gone bad on me and even if I put it on level 0, could it be causing the over fueling condition? I may have to take the edge out of the circuit and reconnect it as stock and try out.
Any thoughts from anyone.

Thanks
DenverDale

[DmaxMaverick]

The Edge could cause similar problems, but.....You still shouldn't dump boost. The WG is independently controlled, and reactive. There is NO interaction between the WG and the electronics. It is purely mechanical, and only reacts to actual boost pressure. However, some problems with the Edge Juice have been reported, so it certainly shouldn't be ruled out, no matter how far-fetched. Have you tried to duplicate the problem with the Edge disconnected? If not, give it a try. If it returns to "normal", you'll have to call Edge about it.

[denverdale]

Tomorrow I will remove the edge and see if the truck still blows BLACK. We will see what happens next.
Thanks for your input.

DenverDale

[denverdale]

I uninstalled the EDGE this morning and took the truck for a drive. NO SMOKE!!!! I will reinstall the EDGE and take it for another drive this afternoon. If I get a lot of smoke, I guess I will be dealing with EDGE Products.

DenverDale

[denverdale]

I talkked to Gary at Edge Products today and explained the conditions I have been experiencing with the black smoke. After some discussion, Gary gave me a RTN# and ask that I ship my unit to him and he would send me an upgraded unit at no cost. I made sure that Gary knew that I wasn't sure that the Juice was the problem or not. He indicated that they had experienced in the past some cases that matched mine.
What a pleasant surprise. I have not encountered customer service like that more than a couple of times in the last 4 or 5 years.
I will ship the old unit back today and after installing the new unit, I'll post on here and let anyone know if that was indeed the problem.

DenverDale

[denverdale]

I took the truck up into the mountains today. Went from Denver to the other side of Fairplay. Our property is up at about 9500'. The Edge Juice is on its way to Ogden and the truck really seemed like it had no power at all. I did notice a little black smoke at one time, but other than that, it seemed to run clean. JUST NO POWER!!

I think I will take it to the dealer next week for a diagnosis.

DenverDale

[denverdale]

I spent the morning at the dealers while they did a dignostic on the truck. I have two injectors on the right side that are overfueling. They reccommend replacing all 4 on that side since they will be in there to replace the two bad ones.

I also had them check the rear end that is whining. All in all, I am looking at about $5200 in repair cost. They said they would give me a fleet discount of 10% so I would save about $500. I am going to call the warranty group to see if they will work with me since the truck is only 1 month out of warranty.

I have been looking at new trucks and the $5000 in repair may better be sepent on the new truck. Decisions, decision, decisions.


DenverDale

[Mark Rinker]

Regardless of the warranty outcome, if it were mine I'd fix the truck right i.e. do all eight injectors... You can always sell it outright for cash later, with the injector work recently done completely - and buy a used '06 LBZ for a great price.

An '04 LB7 or any '06 (LBZ) with warranty remaining are the the best years to own now, IMO... :)

[DmaxMaverick]

I spent the morning at the dealers while they did a dignostic on the truck. I have two injectors on the right side that are overfueling. They reccommend replacing all 4 on that side since they will be in there to replace the two bad ones.

I also had them check the rear end that is whining. All in all, I am looking at about $5200 in repair cost. They said they would give me a fleet discount of 10% so I would save about $500. I am going to call the warranty group to see if they will work with me since the truck is only 1 month out of warranty.

I have been looking at new trucks and the $5000 in repair may better be sepent on the new truck. Decisions, decision, decisions.


DenverDale


Here's another possible tool for your belt:
Vehicle warranty duration is not only calculated by in-service date and actual mileage. It is very likely your warranty coverage is actually less, perhaps much less, than 30 days past. The warranty time period and mileage is adjusted for any time/miles elapsed during warranty repairs. You need to pull the GM service record, and calculate every day the truck was out of service for warranty repairs, from the day it was originally in service. The record should list each day, and mileage it should be compensated. Most service managers don't look for this, either by design, or ignorance.

[denverdale]

DmaxMaverick

I just pulled all my service/repair invoices since I have had the truck and all total, I have had the truck in for 47 hours and 53 minutes for warranty related work. Not bad for a 7 yr old truck.

I am still over the 7 yrs by 32 days.

I did not know that time in shop extended your total warranty time.

You guys on here are a wealth of information. Thanks for sharing

DenverDale

[DmaxMaverick]

It's worth a shot, especially when we are talking 5 grand for a repair. Also, if the truck has EVER been in the shop for similar complaint(s) since (if ever) the injectors were replaced under the extended warranty campaign, the date of complaint should associate with that date. A failure a month out of warranty has to be quite frustrating.

You're right, though. Less than 2 days total warranty repair time over 7 years is pretty good. Better than most, of any brand, by far.

[denverdale]

I heard from Chevrolet Cust. Svc. today. They have agreed to pay 50% of the injector replacement (all four). My cost now is down to about $1000 for the injector work. The dealer will give me a fleet price for the differential work so that is now down to about $2400.

I have asked two local dealers for their bottom dollor trade offer. If they don't meet my price, I will schedule the repair work.

My delima is that I feel that if I don't trade now, the only thing available in 2010 and forward will be a truck with the DPF and the EURA injection system. I did a little searching on the internet regarding the EURA system. I don't believe it is a good option. The truckers sure won't like it.

Tomorrow is "D" day. I'll have to make up my mind.

DenverDale

[Mark Rinker]

Not to make things more complicated, but I am fairly certain you could locate a complete, lower-mile rear end assembly from a salvage yard for far less than the cost of GM's repair estimate of $2400. Any repair shop (GM dealer or no) should be able to do the complete swap in a few hours, you could even pick up the salvage rear in the back of your truck and leave with the old one in the back as well to dispose of.

So - if you decide to keep the truck, I'd focus only on the injector replacement, getting out of there with half of your shirt still intact, and start looking for your used rear end out of any 2500 series Duramax truck...the lower the miles, the better.

Any shop (GM or not) should be able to do the complete swap in a few hours shop time.

[denverdale]

I thought about that and I am so busy right now, I may just pay the piper and have them do the work. There is a chance that I may not need a gear set. The gear set is half the cost of the work. ($1200).

I am getting tired of twisting wrenches. I spent too many years doing that because I could not afford to take my vehicle to a shop and because I enjoyed restoring cars. I restored a 66 corvair convertable and a 67 firebird convertable.

Thanks for the input. Always appreciated.

Denverdale

[denverdale]

Well, I couldn't get any dealer to meet my price to trade so I gave up and took it to the dealer this afternoon. I hope to have it back by Tuesday. I am going to let them check out and repair the differential to so I don't have to do a swap. I really hope the 4 new injectors will restore the power and eliminate the black smoke.

I got my Juice/attitude back today. They didn't send me a new one, they flashed my old one to bring it up to the latest version. That's fine. I'll put it on after I drive the truck home from the dealer.

Denverdale

[denverdale]

Picked up the truck yesterday. I noticed that when I really got on it, it was still blowing black smoke. I called the service writer and he wants it back to see what is wrong. The more I drove it, the less black smoke I observed when accelerating hard. I took it in for an emission test and they said it all checked out great.
Opacity at 60 mph wa 04% - 50 MPH was 02%. Horsepower ( I assume at 60 MPH) was 234.

I will be towing the 5th wheel (13000 lbs) this weekend so I will get a chance to really watch for any smoke. I did install the juice/attitude yesterday. I will run it on level 0 until I am sure there is no smoke and then I will step it up to level 1 and 2 and watch for smoke.

I hope that the soot was just residual soot from when the bad injectors were in.

DenverDale

[Duramaster]

I hope that the soot was just residual soot from when the bad injectors were in.

DenverDale


Sometimes if the injectors have been leaking bad enough there will be excessive soot build up in the catalytic converter. Thats when I take the truck out for a little excessive WOT accelerations!! I love the sound of the DMAX!! :D

[denverdale]

We took the truck and 5th wheel out this weekend. I had the juice installed but set on level "o". I was abel to observe that the truck ("old Smokey") was still smoking under heavy acceleration.
It seems that the only time it smokes is when it is under load and a downshift occurs. I can't figure that one out. The truck goes back to the dealer on Tuesday or Wednesday so they can check it out again.
Anyone have any new ideas????

Thanks in advance for any input.

Denverdale

[denverdale]

I took the truck to the dealers Wed. morning. Haven't heard a word form them since I left it there.

Sure hope they find something that is simple and inexpensive to fix.

Denverdale

[denverdale]

Latest development on "ole Smokey". The dealer took the truck yesterday and today they say that the injectors on the other side (left) side are testing bad and need to be replaced. I ask them why they didn't see that when they replaced the four injectors on the right side and the service writers response was - "I don't know". The dealer called Chevrolet and arranged for the same 50 - 50 split of labor and expenses at the warranty rate for me. I told them to go ahead and do the work. I guess I have too much money in it now to pull out.
I sure hope this takes care of the black smoke problem.

Denverdale.