Aftercooler [Archive] - TheDieselPage.com Forums

Stratosurfer

06-24-2009, 20:37

Anyone installed an aftercooler on a 6.5? I found these water-cooled aftercoolers on EBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Water-to-Air-Intercooler-Drag-Racing-10-x9-x4-5-1200HP_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a 2Q7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a1171Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c29 3Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZi tem3ef5eb0de8QQitemZ270413794792QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ 5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

I like the idea of using one such as this, running small coolant lines to a radiator behind the grill and allowing the fluid to move on a thermosiphon. This would seem to make the installation much easier and more flexible.
Vendors make it happen, I'll buy 2....
If anyone has done this post pics.
Thanks

Hubert

06-25-2009, 05:10

I have always like the idea.

I don't believe a thermosiphon will be enough. Most I have read about run a water pump from a Ford (Lightening or something).

I have read a few people post over the years. Heath was rumored at one time to develop one for sale but was probably too costly for the 6.5 market. I don't think anyone offers a 6.5 specific kit.

Stratosurfer

06-25-2009, 05:34

I don't believe a thermosiphon will be enough.

That is where I don't have the engineering knowledge or time to research it thoroughly as to whether a thermosiphon would move enough coolant to get the job done. I would think at freeway speed with the temp delta between the charge air and the radiator would be substantial and would move quite a volume of water, I just don't know as you question if it would be worth the effort. Certainly it would be better than our non-intercooled engines are currently getting. I love the KISS principle and would like to keep a pump and the added complexity removed from the system, however it may be required for effectiveness.
I became interested in this after I researched the aftercooler on my motorhome which is radiator coolant cooled on a separate loop from engine water.
Certainly the installation would be much easier than plumbing charge-air pipe from the turbo to the grill and back.

a4stargen

06-25-2009, 07:26

I have read a few people post over the years. Heath was rumored at one time to develop one for sale but was probably too costly for the 6.5 market. I don't think anyone offers a 6.5 specific kit.

Pennisular diesel advertises a aftercooler on their website. It doesn't have a price listed, so no idea on how much it costs. http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/AddOnKits.html

If you are going to piece an aftercooler together, I would recommend working toward an air to air aftercooler instead of a water to air aftercooler. With a water cooled setup, you only have the potential to reduce the intake air temp to whatever the coolant temp is...180 - 200 F. With a air to air cooler, you have the potential to lower the intake air temp to whatever the ambient air temp outside is. Obviously you will never get the intake air down to 60-70 degrees with an aftercooler, but you may get it down to 100-120 which is a lot better than coolant temp. Just my .02

Robyn

06-25-2009, 07:29

A small electric pump to move the glycol based coolant through the aftercooler would be sweet.

I personally would try to mount the aftercooler on the LH side of the engine bay.
This would give you a straight shot out of the turbo across the engine to the cooler.

You could easily modify the air hat on the manifold to allow a clean entry from the LH side of the engine.

Stainless hose with JIC fiittings OR????????? to plumb the coolant connections.

Even a fairly large heater core would possibly suffice to cool the liquid coming off the charge cooler.

Many ways to accomplish this.

I have thought about doing one of these myself on DaHooooley.

The coolant does need to be pumped though the keep things as cool as possible.

Generally a thermo syphone requires that the hot liquid enter a radaitor at the top and then fall as it cools to the bottom and return to the heat source.

PUMP IT :)

This system would not compromise the chassis so much for Off Roading etc as does the Air to Air coolers that some have mounted under the rigs.

Have fun and keep us posted.

Best

Robyn

Beedee

06-25-2009, 09:18

When I first got my truck I was looking at using an aftercooler off of a Volvo marine diesel. It is not a big unit, you could make it fit where one of the batteries go, then just remount the battery somewhere else.
One of the problems is the amount of heat that the intercooler will transfer back into the cooling system.
It seems to me that we don't have the best cooling systems on our trucks and that every extra BTU counts so you would need to look at upgrading your rad.
I do some work for a friend that has a rad shop. He can build me a super rad if I want one, but even at my cost it would be pretty pricey, but he guarantees that it will cool like you have never seen. That is another topic.
If I get some time, I'll go take some pictures of the unit and post them. I think it would be pretty sweet.
About the only reason I haven't done anything about putting one in is because I want to upgrade to a Dmax one day. But with the economy the way it is right now, that is on hold again..........

More Power

06-25-2009, 09:27

The water/air IC systems I've read about through the years (whether marine or automotive) all used a separate cooling system (separate from the engine cooling system), which allows a theoretical drop in boosted air temp to somewhere close to ambient air temp - similar to an air/air cooler.

The advantage of a water/air system is size and potentially thermal transfer efficiency. The downside is complexity (i.e. a separate cooling system) and sometimes cost....

Jim

Stratosurfer

06-25-2009, 11:19

All,
As has been mentioned above, water is much more efficient at carrying heat (4X) than air. My thoughts were to thermosiphon from the heat exchanger to a new and separate radiator (tranny cooler?) mounted in front of the current stack of radiators already there. As Robin says, if the hot water starts at the top of the dedicated 'radiator' (my thoughts are a tranny cooler would nearly be perfect), then the falling down of the denser cooling water and the heat imparted back at the heat exchanger pulling it back to there could make the water move pretty good. The great thing is, if it is tried w/o a pump hoping thermosiphon will work at driving speeds and airflow, -and it doesn't-, it is really nothing at that point to add a pump to the system.
Any vendors game, as I said, I'll buy 2...

rogers

07-01-2009, 17:03

I wonder if you could plumb it up just like an a/c system? Use a second condenser out front in the grill, run some lines to a second compressor, and then some lines to your w2a intercooler. The condenser would fit in the grill just fine, and the compressor would circulate the refrigerant as well as compress it. The only question in my mind is if the aftercooler could handle the pressures. What do you think?

Stratosurfer

07-01-2009, 20:06

I wonder if you could plumb it up just like an a/c system? Use a second condenser out front in the grill, run some lines to a second compressor, and then some lines to your w2a intercooler.

I'm a -wanna be, lay- engineer...
I don't believe the HP we gain in cooling the charge air down is more than the HP lost to the 2nd A/C compressor. If the thermosiphon works, whatever cooling happens is basically free energywise. So, if on a 100F day if the charge air is 200Fand we could cool it down for 'free' to 140F, that would give extra HP at no energy cost.

Diesel Don '98

07-18-2009, 21:16

[QUOTE=a4stargen;256344]Pennisular diesel advertises a aftercooler on their website. It doesn't have a price listed, so no idea on how much it costs. http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/AddOnKits.html

$750.00 plus shipping

restoguy

08-02-2009, 14:47

I've been interested in trying an air to water intercooler on my 6.5L as well. I was just hoping someone would try it first! The main reason I like the idea is packaging restraints. I can't hang an ATA cooler under my bumper and expect to keep it in one piece. And there is precious little room behind the grille for it. I know a few people have put them there though. With the ATW cooler I can use a much smaller(thinner) heat exchanger behind the grille and I can build the intercooler into the intake manifold. I know that at least a couple of the supercharger companies out there are packaging their chargers with an ATW/intake manifold as a complete unit. If you look under the hood of a new car, you know why!

KallyI

09-06-2009, 07:25

Well, I just bought an air to water intercooler off ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130320351311&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT

so I will be the guinea pig in case anyone is interested. Will keep the installation, up to date, once it arrives.

Robyn

09-06-2009, 08:00

Definately currious as to how well this works out for you.

Take pics along the way and keep us posted.

Robyn

Stratosurfer

09-06-2009, 16:08

I'm certain that the thermosiphon alone -will- drop the temp on the charge air if the loop is set up precisely as a thermosiphon must be. The power of thermosiphon is tremendous if set up correctly.
A couple of examples:
* You can buy diesel generators today that produce around 8HP (Lister(oid) generators that have have no water pump nor even radiator in the common sense. Yet the waste heat of 8HP of a diesel is sufficiently dissipated into the surrounding atmosphere. Type in Lister or Listeroid engine/generator, they are pumping the fields 24/7 in India as you read this with no waterpump, no thermostat and a crude loop that acts as a radiator.
* I have a friend who's father was a rancher, he said he and his father drove a Peterbuilt semi-truck hauling a full load of cattle from Brady TX to Amarillo Texas. It was at night and they heard a fan belt go off on them north of Abilene. He said he and his father pulled over, inspected under the hood, removed the belt from a frozen waterpump (bearing siezed) and his father closed the hood and formulated a plan. It was was after dark in the evening they would not be able to get a new waterpump until later the next day, and they'd miss the cattle auction. He said his father said the rig should run, -on thermosiphon-, with out the pump if they took it easy on the accelerations. Again it was night, so lower temps, and little traffic to force downshifts, but he said they drove the truck with no functioning waterpump, purely on the thermosiphon principle and the engine never got hot. I think it's over 200 miles Abilene to Amarillo. My friend said it was many hours he and his father stared at the temp guage...
They delivered the cattle for sale in Amarillo the next morning and then had the truck repaired.
The thermosiphon principle is very sound, -can- move a tremendous amount of coolant (some of you engineers calculate the waste heat load on a semi-tractor diesel pulling a full load of cattle at freeway speeds, up and down grades).
I believe the key is thoughtful setup of the system: the heat source ideally needs to be -lower- than the inlet of the radiator to give the heat room to -climb-. And the radiator needs to be -tall-: allowing the cooler water room to fall. If this is done right I have no doubt this aftercooler rig can be done without a pump. Some engineering calculations are requred for this to work.
HOWEVER: If I'm wrong, as I said earlier, the addition of a 12V pump is a very simple addition.
KallyI, Tally HO! I will as well be watching and thanks for taking up the project. It could well turn in to a preferred mod for our 6.5's.

convert2diesel

09-06-2009, 20:08

Thermosyphons have one disadvantage. They pump up well (think the older house heating systems or drip coffee makers) but they don't suck worth a damn. For this system to work properly, one would have to place the heat source (charge air) at the bottom of the cicuit, meaning your back to plumbing large air lines again.

A simple work around would be a coolant pump off a junk yard Mercedes diesel (usually the owner doesn't know what it is and you get it for cheap) placed in the system. These things are great. Even in the middle of February, the wife's 300D is toasty inside within 5 minutes of start up. Can't see the reverse (heat shed) being any less efficient. Have no idea of the flow specs. but just know it works.

Would be interesting to measure the temperature drop of the coolant through a heater core. I know the temperature rise on a minus 10F day here in the great white, for heater air, is at least 80 degrees with a 500 CFM fan so the same should be consistant with the water temperature (same transfer of BTUs). Anyone know of a 4in circular or tubular heat exchanger for the charge air side?

Bill

Robyn

09-07-2009, 07:29

The thermosyphon works fine as long as the hot water can rise to the top of a tank and spill into it and then fall again as it cools.

I would say, forget about fancy ac pumps and all that stuff.

Use a suitable sized (to fit the room you have) heater core out front for your heat rejection device.

Plumb in a small electric water transfer pump that runs when the engine is running.

Pump your glycol/water based coolant through the system and it will work sweet.

Keep the system large enough to handle the heat generated.

The temps produced are going to be in the 350F tops range.

A small electric cooling fan from a little cars cooling system will help in getting the heat out of your system.

This whole thing can be done with scavenged parts from various sources.

A heater core is fairly efficient in moving heat from the liquid to the air.

A factory heater core for most rigs is not very large at all.

Keep in mind that the thicker the core, the harder it is to get air to flow through the core.

A 2" thick core would work fine.

Loads of good used stuff out there to pick through.

I would install a small surge tank that has a radiator cap and can be used to fill your system and also allow for a pop off if need be (7PSI would be fine)

There should be ample room behind the grill to mount the small heat exchanger.

Keep us posted.

Robyn

Robyn

09-07-2009, 08:13

Here is a link to the PAXTON web site

They offer a ready made kit that does just what I was speaking of and has all the goodies to giterdone. :D

http://www.paxtonauto.com/product.php?id=248

This would be a snap to install.

Simply scrounge up another top hat for your intake manifold, cut the snout off down from where the turbo couples on.

Angle the snout and weld it back on so it now faces the RH side of the rig with enough room to allow your turbo outlet to connect to a pipe and pass by.

Mount the Paxton unit in a cozy spot and plumb the air pipe (You makeum) to the inlet side then run the outlet from the Paxton around and to the newly modified air hat inlet.

You must maintain the ports for the MAP and IAT sensors on the top hat as well as your boost gauge connection.

Follow the MFG instructions and hook up the rest of the cooler kit parts in a reasonably close to the intructions fashion and your set.

A kit for any regular V8 Chevy or Ford should be adequate to handle the 6.5's airflow.

If in doubt, call Paxton and check it out.

The Low RPM of the 6.5 (3500 Max) limits the airflow a bunch.

Have fun.

Missy

KallyI

09-11-2009, 21:19

suburbanK-2500HD

09-11-2009, 23:53

The kit I am waiting for, uses the same pump that Ford uses on the supercharged Lightning, so it's readily available. Since I am in the Great White North, and the kit is coming from Colorado, via USPS, I expect it will be another 2 weeks till delivery.

hi

nice specs, how did you fit the intercooler in the truck, planning on doing the same, but not shure where to put it

thanks

KallyI

09-14-2009, 01:11

hi

nice specs, how did you fit the intercooler in the truck, planning on doing the same, but not shure where to put it

thanks

I have not received the kit yet. It's on the way. I will be placing the 12" X 12" radiator and fan behind the grill, in front of the A/C condensor, as well as the water pump. The actual intercooler will fit on top of the engine. The placement of all the parts won't be finalized until I actually have the pieces in my hands, though.:)

suburbanK-2500HD

09-15-2009, 12:04

I have not received the kit yet. It's on the way. I will be placing the 12" X 12" radiator and fan behind the grill, in front of the A/C condensor, as well as the water pump. The actual intercooler will fit on top of the engine. The placement of all the parts won't be finalized until I actually have the pieces in my hands, though.:)

hi again.

i could se an intercooler installed at yoyr truck in the photo gallery.
did it work. thinkng of EGT temps, boost, and effect.

thanks

moondoggie

09-15-2009, 13:45

SmithvilleD

09-15-2009, 17:56

It's definitely wise to focus some thought on the heat shedding side of the equation. That's the more challenging side of charge to water to air coolers.

Since water has such a high heat capacity, a correctly designed & sized charge cooler does a very good job of pulling heat out of the charge air, until the water becomes heat soaked. Getting the heat out of the water is usually the limiting factor.

If you tow, it's also important to consider real-time, continual heat shedding ability. Many street turbo car IC apps can only control/significantly cool charge temps long enough for a run thru the gears, as heat builds in the IC core faster than it can be shed; then IC temps come down over the next few minutes after the engine's not under boost.

A friend found it worthwhile to be able to monitor water temp into & out of the WTA radiator - so you'll know if you have enough heat shedding ability.

KallyI

09-15-2009, 18:03

hi again.

i could se an intercooler installed at yoyr truck in the photo gallery.
did it work. thinkng of EGT temps, boost, and effect.

thanks

I have a homemade air to air intercooler right now, you are correct, and it did help a lot. Currently, I have an air leak in the intercooler, and I decided to try out the water to air system, since the price has come down a lot in the past few years.

KallyI

09-15-2009, 18:12

Good Day!

Couldn't the radiator be mounted under the truck? Seems like a small rad might fit down there. This would make the heat load not additive to all the other stuff cooled out front. I'm thinking rad, electric coolant pump, & fan hanging between the frame rails somewhere. The water pump & fan could even be powered through a thermal switch in the intake, so they don't even run until intake air temp increases above the thermal switch setpoint. In this way, they'd only be powered when pulling hard; putting around town, no current draw.

I'm cheap, so a small car rad with its fan come to mind. The coolant pump would be as described here by others.

Worth considering?

Blessing!

The main problem I see with mounting the radiator under the truck (similar to where my air to air cooler is now) is that this unit has a radiator cap that is designed to be in an upright position, like a regular radiator. I've given some thought to a thermal switch, but I haven't found one that will meet my needs yet. I will likely mount the intercooler radiator lower down, so that the heat shouldn't be a problem for the rest of the a/c and truck radiator, and also take advantage of one of the cutouts in the bumper. I have also given thought to fabricating a shroud to direct the heat shed from the radiator, downwards, under the truck. The intercooler radiatior comes with a 10" push/pull fan. My air to air setup already has a 7" fan, so I will use the relay I installed for that fan, for the 10" fan. The pump that comes with the kit, I will likely have running all the time, with the fan coming on as needed, via a thermal switch sensing the radiator temperature.

KallyI

09-17-2009, 12:26

I received the kit yesterday, but didn't have time to even open the box. I won't have time to get to installing it until The 26th, maybe. If I don't get at it then, it'll have to wait until the end of October.

Lundstedt

09-21-2009, 21:08

been kicking around a-a and w-a cooling and then i remembered i think i have an air to air laying around off a mid size truck, going to take a peak tomorrow when i get to the shop... hope it fits.
what IAT are you seeing and at what psi?

Lundstedt

09-22-2009, 21:29

argggg, not what i thought i had, but i have 2 air to air coolers, one is late model dodge (2006 ?) one is ??? would need some slight repair... otherwise i have to buy one. not too big of a worry yet, got to get the block finished up first.

Stratosurfer

10-03-2009, 07:57

Lundstedt,

I tried the cross drilled brake lines years ago, cost me a fortune... Ended up explosively blowing the gold-plated tiny freeze plugs under heavy braking into into my water to air cooled catalytic converter: shooting coolant all over my cross-drilled, vacuum molded carbon-fiber (CF) drive shaft resulting in fiber separation of the carbon layers and failing the drive shaft. When the rear portion of the CF drive shaft hit the pavement it jammed backward into my new ceramic rear differential, lighting off the diff gears to hand-grenade, fortunately somewhat contained by the titanium/kevlar reinforced blast shield I had the forethought to install around it.

So with nothing except parking brakes and the front wheels driving I had to drive 200 miles home with an overheating cat converter.

I try to stick to as close to OEM as is feasible on my 6.5's now.
I will however consider the cryogenically treated block.

====================================
'94 6.5 burban, cryogenically treated block, 18:1 and forged crank on their way and more goodies to ship when i get the long block together, including extended life turn signal indicator fluid, chromed exhaust bearings, cross drilled brake lines and an oil bypass kit. to mention a few.

Lundstedt

10-04-2009, 09:06

cryo block i really have, we have a processor.

got to call on the girdle been a week and no show.... machine shop is waiting on it.

back on air to air coolers. who has built what and where will a dodge air to air really fit behind the grill?

suburbanK-2500HD

10-18-2009, 12:11

KallyI

10-24-2009, 15:23

Hi there

Did you install the kit yet.....:))

No, I haven't, work was crazy with overtime, then I went away for 2 weeks on vacation, just got back today, and will be starting it by Monday, the 26th. I will try to take pictures, and let everyone know what's going on.:)

suburbanK-2500HD

10-25-2009, 10:25

Cant wait to see...

One_Ton_k5

11-02-2009, 16:34

Hi folks,

I was just wondering, if the water to air cooler failed, wouldn't the coolant flow right into the intake?

Or did I miss something?

Thanks.

Stratosurfer

11-02-2009, 21:24

Hi folks,

I was just wondering, if the water to air cooler failed, wouldn't the coolant flow right into the intake?

Or did I miss something?

Thanks.

The coolant could be at a higher pressure than the charge air, but not likely. Many aftercooled engines out there. This is old technology and I wouldn't worry about this anymore than a head gasket failing and sucking coolant. Both are possible, but neither probable.

KallyI

11-22-2009, 20:53

I have found that I can't install the aftercooler itself, in the position I thought I could, so until I figure out where to put it, I won't be able to get it in. Sorry for this, but it's the way it is.:confused:

Robyn

11-23-2009, 07:15

DickWells

11-23-2009, 08:00

Andy Langarand has been running his 93 6.5 Flat Bed for years with a home-made air to water cooler. He uses a 12V pump and a VW radiator, which is mounted up high, behind the cab in the corner of the head board. I can't remember what he burried in the square box that he welded up for a heat exchanger, but it looked about the size of a good big heater core. The whole system has worked out just fine for him. It's interesting that he also has alky/water injection (also home-made), big exhaust, shaved pistons for reduced compression, cold air filtration, and mechanical injection, all in an engine that he claims has a weak piston or two! I don't know how he gets by with it.:confused: A couple of years ago, I saw his serp. belt with some threads hanging off, and he just told me that he didn't worry about it, just took his jackknife and sliced off the threads when he heard them slapping the rad. plumbing!:eek:You gotta be that type, I guess. I couldn't get across town, with that kind of equipement.
My IC in my 6.5 is the large SpearCo air ot air, and it works fine, but I've always thought that water to air would be more efficient. Interesting to see how you turn out with yours.
Good luck.
Dick

KallyI

11-23-2009, 20:44

Personally I would scare up another air plenum for the thing and modify it so that the entry is switched or use a plate with a sweeping elbo in the top.

Place your cooler in line with the turbo outlet and then plumb it to the intake.

There is plenty of room in the engine bay to get the cooler in there.

I had thought about a cooler like this for DaHoooley but I just dont use the truck hard enough or for that matter much at all and can't justify the cost.

Have fun and keep us posted

Missy

I have the Peninsular Marine Diesel hat for the inlet already, with my air/air intercooler. I had thought I could place the water/air intercooler on top of the engine, but it just won't fit anywhere, and still be able to close the hood, so unless I can place it around the same place as the air/air (ie. under the bumper), it is hard to see where else it can go. Maybe I bought the wrong intercooler for use in my truck.:confused: At any rate, it isn't going to get done until some warm weather returns here, since I can't shut the garage door with the truck in the garage.

It'll get done, just not now.:D