Batteries, Starter, or what??

[JTodd]

My fight with fuel flow is documented elsewhere. Anyway, after trying to start and draining the new batteries, I plugged them in to charge. I don't know if I blew a fuse or something, but before plugging in the charger it would crank, albeit not enough to start. After charging, sometimes it will crank a bit, but just barely. Mostly it is just a click. Lights don't dim when cranking, and bright otherwise, everything else works. I cleaned the terminals an tightened them. No starting or cranking problems before recent bought with lift pump. Tried to start before any work other than hooking up charger.

What am I missing? It has basically been charging for 3 hours and still no cranking.

[rustyk]

You can check out my experiences with a somewhat similar problem here (http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=33281).

My first issue was with a sluggish starter, but ground connection crud might have been what caused its failure.

Skip to the last 2 posts; I suspect much of the original issue may have been the engine ground. Mine's a motorhome, so there are at least 14 chassis grounds, but the engine ground is separate.

The bottom line is I would check the battery cables, hot and ground, for crud at the connections and corrosion at the cable terminals. A quick check to see if that's the issue would be to connect a jumper cable from the battery negative to a good ground spot on the engine, and another from the battery positive to the connection on the starter (connect the positive-starter first), then try cranking.

[JTodd]

I will double check the grounds, but a quick check earlier did not revel anything loose. The thing that perplexes me is that things went from slow cranking to nothing in a minute. I at first thought relay or something because of how abrupt the problem started. The fact that it cranks a bit, sometimes (not turning over, but moves a bit) points more to grounds - but happening so quickly? Can one battery turn the engine over?

Thanks for the help.

[rustyk]

I can't answer the "one battery-engine turnover" question, although one can on my 6.9L Ford van. The siongle 31-5 engine battery on my M/H is rated at 1,000CCA, so it's bigger than most.

My problems also started somewhat abruptly, which is why I mistakenly attributed it to a sudden failure rather than the slow accumulation of grunge. First was the sluggish starter (which was bad - possibly because without sufficient voltage, it needed more current and failed as a result). The new starter, however, allowed it to crank properly. But shortly after the failure to fire arose, and, still thinking it was a failure of something, I went through the circuit - replacing the glow plug relay (which didn't need it), the lift pump (which did), and the glow plugs (which were good, but very old, so replacement was in order).

Everything on the "hot" side working properly, the only thing left in the circuit to check were the grounds. BTW, none was loose, but really dirty.

[6.5 Detroit Diesel]

I have had to start my truck a couple of times on one battery. It can be done. But I don't know how helpful that will be to finding the problem.

[JTodd]

Pulled an cleaned both grounds from battery to block - no change. Charged all night - no change. By nothing I mean a click and maybe a small amount of movement. Headlights are still bright.

What poles on the starter do I jump to? Before coming in (12* right now) I crawled under and took a look at the starter. There is a ground strap there that I will also clean while under there. I have cleaned other grounds in the past, but it would seem that the main ones I already got to would complete this main circuit. I also connected jumper cables from the negative pole of one battery to the block - adding an additional ground, and no change.

It appears that in hooking the charger up and having "little helpers" help, it may have gotten hooked up backwards. I am not sure if it was ever turned on in this configuration, but was told that there were "some sparks". Both batteries seem to have a charge and the charger seems to be working. This kind of makes the abrupt change from cranking, but needing some help to nothing make a little more sense. The problem is I don't know where the new problem is. I checked all the fuses in the engine compartment and swapped relays.

[trbankii]

Anyway, after trying to start and draining the new batteries, I plugged them in to charge.

Depending on how long you cranked, there is also the chance you fried the starter.

[DennisG01]

Were you charging the batteries together? If so, try doing them individually. Also, just to be sure (and to positively rule out the batteries as the problem) try a load test. If you don't have one, places like Autozone and Advance Auto will check your battery for free. They're probably fine, but it you have a place nearby that can do this, it might be worth the half hour or so of time. Just a thought! :)

[chambie]

Is the charger working properly,,? Disconnect the battery cables and check each battery for voltage. Maybe they aren't really charging.

[bobbywalter]

did you try tapping the starter with a hammer while jumping it? sure sounds like it is wounded or cooked



there should be two wires on your starter...the small wire is the one you want to jump pos power too


the solo may just be bound up a bit and just need a tap or maybe its fried

[rustyk]

did you try tapping the starter with a hammer while jumping it? sure sounds like it is wounded or cooked



there should be two wires on your starter...the small wire is the one you want to jump pos power too

I disagree - he wants to get a clean connection to the large connector at the solenoid (not the starter motor itself). Attaching it to the solenoid will activate it and engage the starter if the solenoid works - but I agree that would be the second test if the first fails.



the solo may just be bound up a bit and just need a tap or maybe its fried

I agree with that, but he said he gets a click. The contacts may be bad, however, in which case tapping it won't help..

[JTodd]

I did try tapping, and nothing. I checked the batteries and both were 13.5+ (disconnected from each other. I redid the terminals on the pass side with the stud and nuts method. While doing this I noticed that the rubber cover around the positive lead appeared a bit melted from direct heat at some point. The red rubber was a bit brown as if the terminal itself was the source of heat. Based on this, and the lack of any other ideas, I pulled the starter. I will try a new positive cable between the battery and the starter, but will have the starter load tested as well.

I tried to bench test the starter by attaching jumper cables to the battery and the positive end where the positive cable attached to the starter and the negative to the support bracket that was still attached. I then stuck a screw driver between the positive cable and the switch pole. I got a couple small sparks, but nothing else.

[HH]

Make sure the ground between the block and starter is clean also. I am having a similar problem. Cleaning grounds.

[rustyk]

I tried to bench test the starter by attaching jumper cables to the battery and the positive end where the positive cable attached to the starter and the negative to the support bracket that was still attached. I then stuck a screw driver between the positive cable and the switch pole. I got a couple small sparks, but nothing else.

The place the positive cable attaches is the solenoid; the solenoid then connects the power to the starter when it's energized. Try the other large lug where the starter motor is; make sure you have the starter motor well secured, because if it works, it'll get frisky.

[pirate]

I'm having the same issue with my 6.5 worked fine then just died now all i get is a load click. talking with the people at work they said there is a shim kit to lower the starter so it line up better with the ring gear. Its a gas engine fix so they tell me. When it warms up i'm gonna try it to see if it fixes it on mine it might work for you if you want to try.

[DmaxMaverick]

If you have to shim your 6.2/6.5 starter, you have bigger fish to fry. Something is broke, bent, or warped. No shims.

If you only get a click (or clicking) when you try to start, the diagnostic direction is simple. Weak batteries or broken/weak circuit. In most cases, it's just a poor contact, either battery terminals, or the batt+ lug at the solenoid (I would say grounds, but that's an ongoing issue, so clean/tighten them anyway). If the solenoid clicks or buzzes, rule out the ign switch (at the moment). There are also fusible links throughout the system, including the ACC power lead (powers the ign circuit). The links don't always fail completely, but leave a weak circuit with increased resistance at higher current demands.

I'll try to keep this simple (assuming healthy batteries). If the solenoid clicks, the starter field is not getting power. If it clicks repeatedly, the circuit is not receiving sufficient power, for whatever reason. Usually, a poor ground or poor batt+ connection (most commonly at the battery, but can be the large batt+ lug at the solenoid). The reason for the successive clicking is: power is applied to the solenoid, exciting the field to move the plunger to engage the gear, and push the contact disc to complete the circuit to the starter field. Once the starter field circuit is closed, there is insufficient current to maintain the field, and solenoid, so the solenoid loses its field (plunger disengages). The cycle continues until there is too little current to engage the solenoid (it stops), or the current arcs (welds the connection) enough to complete the circuit and cranks the engaged starter.

This is why it is important to load test the batteries (or just replace them, if questionable). Just because they show 13+V at rest does not mean they will hold this voltage once under demand. If the voltage falls below about 10V, they will not have enough juice to turn the starter, and the clicking happens.

[chambie]

Here in Pa it's been pretty cold lately. -15 to -18 in the am. Mid teens for highs in the pm. Needless to say my truck was a little hard to get started a few days. I haven't been driving it much due to recent surgery so it's been sitting mostly. But i start it everyday just to keep it up. A couple of the really cold mornings it wouldn't start and was draining the batteries pretty quick i thought. I noticed one day that the passenger side battery did the same thing as yours, started to melt the rubber cover. Grabbing the cables by hand they seemed tight, but i did move them by hand. As this is the batt. that has eveything attached to it, i tried to tighten it , and soon found it wouldn't go tight enough, i could still move it by hand with enough pressure applied. The battery bolt had a couple bad threads on it , so i bought a new one, with the lead spacer and put it all back together. Has been working good so far. Seems like these connections on the batteries loosen up frequently. I always check them when i'm under the hood.

Good Luck,

[rapidoxidationman]

I will double check the grounds, but a quick check earlier did not revel anything loose. The thing that perplexes me is that things went from slow cranking to nothing in a minute. I at first thought relay or something because of how abrupt the problem started. The fact that it cranks a bit, sometimes (not turning over, but moves a bit) points more to grounds - but happening so quickly? Can one battery turn the engine over?

Thanks for the help.

Yup, one battery can turn the engine over

BUT

I've blown the tips off of my glow plugs in doing so... The way it was explained to me is that the low voltage induced by the load of the starter AND the glows on one battery causes a larger than normal amp draw in the glows, causing them to blow up and drop small shards into your engine. Those swelled plugs are also kinda tough to remove from the head. My recommendation? Use two batteries. I only lost one plug but it was of course the #8 cylinder (genuine b!+<h to get to in the best of circumstances...)

On your starter issue: Robyn (a member) explains it best right here, starting on post #8:

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=33505

Keep following the thread and you'll see her solution in practice, complete with a pic and explanation of my findings. My truck starter runs like a raped ape now... After chasing "bad grounds", "bad cables", "bad batteries", and everything else suggested above...

Hope this helps.

ROM

[JTodd]

Starter . . .

Took the starter into AutoZone to have them bench test it. Even there it would not turn. I think the combination of draining the batteries while / and cranking over and over due to failing LP was just to much for it. What surprises me is how fast it ultimately failed. It was clearly slower than the new one, but never had issues until - wham - nothing.

Replaced the starter along with a new positive cable down to it. It fires right up. For three bolts, that thing is a pain to get back in.

Thanks all for the help.

[6.5 Detroit Diesel]

Hee hee, following the thread, I was going to suggest starter. But by time I got to the end, you had already done it. :)
As for the 3 bolts, yea they are a pain, but the other option is worse. I didn't have the end bracket. After having to tap and pull 3 broken bolts, I learned about the support bracket. For the $5 dollars it cost, I have no problems taking the extra five minutes to use it. You will not regret it as opposed to fabricating a long drill bit and taking an hour plus to get out the old bolt. ;)

[JTodd]

Hee hee, following the thread, I was going to suggest starter. But by time I got to the end, you had already done it. :)
As for the 3 bolts, yea they are a pain, but the other option is worse. I didn't have the end bracket. After having to tap and pull 3 broken bolts, I learned about the support bracket. For the $5 dollars it cost, I have no problems taking the extra five minutes to use it. You will not regret it as opposed to fabricating a long drill bit and taking an hour plus to get out the old bolt. ;)
Holy crap. The bracket was hard enough as it was, I cannot imagine getting in there with a drill.

For the record, I saw where others put the bracket on exactly as it was on the old starter and tighten it there. I was not able to snake the starter back up in there that way. I ended up loosening the nut on the starter and folding it over, then after tightening the two main bolts, bolting the bracket to the block, getting in there with an 11mm box wrench and tightening it. Also, I found that the positive cable needs to be bent over to 90 degrees otherwise it scraps on the heat shield.

[JohnC]

The way it was explained to me is that the low voltage induced by the load of the starter AND the glows on one battery causes a larger than normal amp draw in the glows,


Don't believe it! Low voltage = low current.

[rapidoxidationman]

Don't believe it! Low voltage = low current.

And the resistance of a heating element is lower when it is cold... Higher current until it heats up...

I can only tell you what I saw: The only time I tried to start the truck (unknowingly) on a single battery (the transmission got rebuilt, the rebuilder's crackheads didn't bother connecting both batteries - or the 4WD solenoid) I ended up with a popped glow plug. I've had 'em burn out plenty, but have yet to see another one pop like this one did. The tip was blown off.

Just what I've seen...

ROM