What kills starters?

[rapidoxidationman]

I've replaced the starter on my truck more times than the boys at NAPA would care to count. The first few were napa remanufactured units, then I upgraded to napa NEW starters about 3 units ago. They've all been free replacements (paid a few bucks for the upgrade) and most of them bench tested OK at the store. Putting the old one back in proves it to still be bad even when they test ok. Putting a new one in solves the problem (until the starter just goes "click" again thousands of miles later). Today's starter bench tested OK electrically, but sounded bad (long time to spin up, lots of bearing noise).

All cables (ground and positive) are good, no internal corrosion. Ground points and battery terminals are all clean and tight. Shorting the solenoid to the battery cable (to remove the possibility of a wiring/relay/switch problem) yields the same "click".

The solenoid will not pull the pinion gear out enough to engage the flywheel or to engage the main motor contacts; the motor won't spin.

I start and stop the truck probably 15-20 times a day (at least).

So: What am I missing here? Is the starter solenoid getting cooked by the exhaust pipe? The original heat shield is still there. I'm getting as sick of working inside the wheel well as the boys at NAPA are of replacing this thing for free...

ROM

[bobt]

Are you reattaching the front bracket that supports the front of the starter to keep it aligned?
Bob

[rapidoxidationman]

Every time. Nice and snug after the engine mount bolts are snug, then tighten everything up.

[trbankii]

The first few were napa remanufactured units, then I upgraded to napa NEW starters about 3 units ago. They've all been free replacements (paid a few bucks for the upgrade)

I don't have any experience with the NAPA starters in particular, but I learned my lesson on the "free lifetime warranty" units in general decades ago when I first got my Toyota truck. After having to replace the "new" units (a couple different items) several times in less than a year, I decided it was worth the extra money up front to only have to replace it once.

As stories (and personal experience) attest, the starting system on these little beasties is an issue. If batteries, cables, and glow plugs are not in tip-top shape you're in trouble. Any time I cannot get it to fire up easily, I'm very careful to only crank the starter for a few seconds at a time and wait between tries so as not to overheat the starter.

Having bought my truck used, I have no idea whether the starter is original or what brand it may be if it is a replacement. Although I've had to replace the batteries, I'm still on the same starter the truck came to me with.

In your place, I'd consider going to a GM starter (although hard to say what cost cutting measures they've gone to lately) and consider whether I was doing any extended cranking to get it to start that may be overheating the unit.

[DaveBr]

Try going back to NAPA and have them look up the part # for the same truck but in the 1 ton 6.5 instead of the 3/4 ton 6.5. See if the part # are different. I have had to do this on a few occasions in order to get the right part for my rig.

[rapidoxidationman]

I'll go to the Bosch brand instead of the Napa brand. The parts guy has already told me he'll keep one on the shelf for me.

Anybody want to buy a truck? New starter, clutch, glow plugs, fairly well taken care of.

Entertaining offers...

[bcbigfoot]

That's strange all the problems you've had with your starter mine is still original and it spent 90% of it's life in Saskatchewan Canada were the winter's are cold and last 6 months. I can't think off hand what your problem might be.

[Robyn]

I had a similar issue a while back with a very expensive custom auto electric shop rebuild.

What I did to solve the issue is to run the red wire from the solenoid (one that activates the solenoid when the key is turned to start) to a Ford starter relay that I mounted on the inner RH fender up by the RH battery.

Wire the relay to pull full battery power off the RH battery and then run that lead to the solenoid on the starter.

Be sure the relay is grounded good to the chassis too.

What happens is that the small lead that GM used to activate the starter is just too small for the amp draw and over time it's ability to provide the required power to really pull that solenoid in properly goes away, allowing the contacts to arc and then they go away. When the solenoid is starved it can't hold the contacts tight and then they arc more and this ruins them as well as deprives the starter.
A vicious circle :eek:

I dont mean to insult, but be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel sure the cables are in good order.

I have seen ground cables that were no good and they looked fine.
They usually go south in the crimp where they bolt to the engine.

The side terminal cables corode in the jacket (Red) and (Black) down in the core of the wire where you cant see it unless you cut them open.

The factory cables are in many cases soldered but not the core, only the outer area where they contact the terminal end assembly.

Once the core corrodes they lose a lot of their ability to transfer power.

Again in most cases you simply can't see it by looking at the cable while it's off the battery.

I would recommend that if the cables are over 5 years old to toss them and get some new ones. Replace the grounds as well as the positive cables. Be sure the power lead that runs from the alternator is in good order as well as the lead that runs to the chassis feed box/junction box
(Depends on the year)

Your starter is simply drawing more power than the cables can supply.

As the cable degrades the amperage draw starts to climb and you in effect get a brown out. The voltage drops off and the amperage goes up.

This results in the contacts in the solenoid arcing more and more untill the solenoid just goes CLICK

With the relay added and some fresh cables, you should be in great shape. (My 94 used to be real slow in the cold, NOT any more)

The added relay also takes a big load off the ignition switch and also allows more power to the system during starting as the solenoids power demand is now provided directly from the battery.

The starter will pull in faster, harder and will last far longer than the factory setup.

The cost is negligable to do this. Use #10 wire to run from the original to the relay and then back to the solenoid.

You can route this neatly up along the original path the heavy cable to the starter runs and tie it with tie wraps.

If you use batteries like the Optima or similar with both top and side terminlas, I would get some welding cable and some copper solder on eyes and make a set of good cables and then use the top terminals with the marine type ends that use a BOLT.

You can install these and use the provided wing nut to attach them.
Use fine strand cable and solder them in to the copper end.
Dont be temped to use a crimped connection as it will soon fall victim to the same issues.

When the solder is flowed into the eye until the cable is totally filled to the core there is no place for corrosion to start.

Even a set of new factory type cables will go a long way to help, but do install the relay setup.

To answer your question "What kills starter" Poor voltage and amperage availability.

The starter needs to have a good 12+ volts available and the ability to get a 400 amp surge to start things rolling. If the cables can't supply this then the starter just fries.

Hope this helps.

Robyn

[damork]

When the OEM starter went south on my old Yukon I opted for the Powermaster starter - a bit spendy but made in the USA and talk about spin it - it whirled the 6.5 over so much faster than the OEM unit that I wish I would have known about it sooner. Although I never had a problem with the switch handling the solenoid current I agree the intermediate relay is a good idea. I never went with the Ford style but put a smaller 30 AMP Bosch relay between the ignition switch and starter. It worked very well for me through 260k miles. I bought the Powermaster from Jegs.

[JohnC]

Didja check the clearance between the starter pinion and the ring gear?

My '95 had almost 150K miles on the original starter...

[rapidoxidationman]

The starter I just put in a couple weeks ago went click today.
This weekend I'm going with the relay idea; it is quite simply the best answer WITH A REASON I've ever gotten regarding what this thing is doing. I'll post results sometime next week hopefully.

In the meantime, y'all will be seeing me more in the D-Max forum...

YEE HAAAAAAWWW

now to learn about a whole 'nuther set of issues...

BTW, this truck is for sale... PM me if interested.

ROM

[97Suburban]

Get this, My starter went south when I bought my 97 Suburban 2 years ago with 122k, not at 155k. but the starter went at 131k Sep 2006, so after pricing them, wow, so I remembered a PA Amish starter/Alt rebuild shop that I've went too over the past 25 years. I take expensive odd ball starters to them.

Anyway, sure enough, they did cleaning, lathe, brushes, and ALL parts and charged me $93, and that thing spun this baby right up like a brand new starter and still working strong and we start this from store to store around town. PERFECT!!!! This is the 3rd starter, another for a wet bike 15 years ago that left me sitting out in the water, but never did again after they rebuilt it!!!

So tell me, how the heck can the Amish who don't use electricity can do such a great job???

Get this, my 2nd battery went bad about 6 months ago and I have been starting on one batt since, but with winter here, buying the 2nd one tomorrow...

[rapidoxidationman]

I mounted the Ford solenoid on the wheel well in the small space between the air cleaner and battery. Ran 12 guage wire from the top post hot terminal of the passenger side battery to the hot side of the solenoid, 12 guage from the switched side of the solenoid to the engine starter solenoid (abandoned the original engine starter solenoid wire). Got into the fuse box on the driver's side of the engine compartment, found the (purple) wire that is on the switched side of the starter relay (same wire that used to go to the engine starter solenoid). Cut it, spliced in a chunk of wire, and ran it to the coil terminal of the Ford solenoid. Took the (-) side of the coil of the Ford solenoid to the top (-) post of the passenger side battery.

WOW this makes a difference. The starter hits HARD and spins FAST!

You were right Robyn, the factory solenoid wire leaves much to be desired - especially after having been cooked under the exhaust manifold for a quarter million miles...

[More Power]

I went through the "guaranteed for life" remanufactured starter scenario back in the 90's. It was cheap and I'd never have to buy another - what a deal!

After replacing the third one in as many weeks and being stranded the last time in another town, I bought a brand new GM starter and pitched the GFL starter in the trash. 250,000 miles later that GM starter was still cranking the 6.5 like new.

I'll never again buy an auto parts store rebuilt starter, alternator or.... ;)

Jim