P30 w/6.2. blowing sut???

[hng71]

Hello, I am a new diesel owner of an old rig. Its a 87 P30 that I use for work. Anyhow, the van has been running great since I got it, no starter or fuel issues, replaced all the filters and did the oil when I got it (4 months ago). The glow plugs were supposidly changed recently.
I am up in Vancouver BC, and over the weekend, it got real cold (well for us west coasters anyhow). On Friday, it dropped below 0c and began to snow, over the weekend, we got a bit of snow and the winds came dropping the temp to -12c . So after not running it for the weekend, I tried to start it up today. At first, it started fine, got it running after a couple of cranks (when it was warmer, it always started within the first 3 secs of the first crank). Not to worry I though, must be just the cold temp.
I had some other issues with the rear shoes freezing to the drums so after I unthawed the e-brake line and drums, she was free to roll, but now it wouldnt start?. Crank after crank, finally after my 5th try and waiting for a bit in between, it started. I drove it around the block, ran fine and went back inside for a couple of hours. Came back out, wouldnt start, cranked over but wouldnt catch until the battery was drained. Looked under the hood, batteries were mismatched, one was a 800cca, the other 650cca. The 800 had a window with a color guage to tell if it was okay, it was. so I replaced the 650 with a new 800cca battery (I know I am supposed to replace both but at $200/ea....) With the one new battery installed, it cranked over better, but again did not catch, again until after the 5th try. Once I got it running I took the van to the wholesaler, and was in for about 30 min. when I got back out, didnt start again, and almost drained the battery. Luckliy it did finally catch and got her home. At home I noticed black sut from the tail pipe on the ground from earlier tries? never had that before either.
Its supposed to get to -15 tonight.
SO heres the thing, when starting, when it was warmer above 0c. the van would start but ran rough for the first 15 sec. and would blow white smoke. I have read about possibly advancing the timing, but when its warm, she runs great, lots of power etc.
Any thoughts or help for a brother up North???

Ho Ho HO

Harry

[DmaxMaverick]

Welcome to the board, Harry!

First off, the soot is normal. Extended running will soot the ground. Most folks don't notice it unless there's clean concrete or snow to paste it on. Just about any revving will do it. It's the nature of the Diesel beast.

The start (or no start). That's a little deeper one. The first thing you should be checking is the fuel quality. If you aren't using a winter additive, you should. Don't count on fuel suppliers to provide what you need. Fuel pumped from the ground may be fine from the station, but it's a different story once mobile. If any part of the fuel system is weak, thick/gelled fuel will cause issues.

The other possibility is the glow plugs and system. You are best to check them, and verify they are all, in fact, good. If they are AC60G plugs, they require longer glow cycle than the OEM's, and longer as it gets colder. You can modify the controller for a longer cycle, but the best option is to add a manual override to extend the cycle as needed. Simple procedure, and we can go into that if necessary.

Air and fuel filter are important maintenance items. When in doubt, change them (now would be a good time).

Using the block heater can really make a difference when it gets cold.

Other things can cause hard cold starts, but try to look at the easy things first.

[hng71]

Welcome to the board, Harry!

First off, the soot is normal. Extended running will soot the ground. Most folks don't notice it unless there's clean concrete or snow to paste it on. Just about any revving will do it. It's the nature of the Diesel beast.

The start (or no start). That's a little deeper one. The first thing you should be checking is the fuel quality. If you aren't using a winter additive, you should. Don't count on fuel suppliers to provide what you need. Fuel pumped from the ground may be fine from the station, but it's a different story once mobile. If any part of the fuel system is weak, thick/gelled fuel will cause issues.

The other possibility is the glow plugs and system. You are best to check them, and verify they are all, in fact, good. If they are AC60G plugs, they require longer glow cycle than the OEM's, and longer as it gets colder. You can modify the controller for a longer cycle, but the best option is to add a manual override to extend the cycle as needed. Simple procedure, and we can go into that if necessary.

Air and fuel filter are important maintenance items. When in doubt, change them (now would be a good time).

Using the block heater can really make a difference when it gets cold.

Other things can cause hard cold starts, but try to look at the easy things first.

Thanks for the imput DmaxMaverick!!, like I said, I am new to the whole diesel thing, and had no idea about the winter additives? I thought only bio diesel had the gelling problems in the cold? huh?.... I will get some winter additive today.
When you say "longer glow cycle", is that the same as leaving the key in the "pre crank position" longer (thats when my glow plug light comes on and I usually crank it over when it goes out) before I try to start it?. If not, if you could send me the link on bypassing and making the glow plug a manual feature, that would be most helpful. All the filters were changes about 1500mi ago, I am getting the gas lines changed next week so that I can start running bio (I think I will wait till it gets warmer though to start running it though) and I will get them to check the filters etc.
Again thank you for your imput. Its great that there is something like this online!

cheers
Harry

[DmaxMaverick]

BioDiesel will gel like #2, only at a higher temp. #2 Diesel will start to wax/gel at 20-25°F. I suggest a winter additive for any temp below freezing. I use Power Service in the white bottle, and it is a regular stock item at Walmart. It works well if used according to the label. You will need about twice the dose for use with Bio. The label lists dosages for temps.

Leaving your key in the "run" position won't give you a longer glow cycle. If anything, it lets them cool off. They are controlled with a timer, and as soon as the GP lamp goes out, there's no juice going to the plugs. The lamp on the dash indicates when the plugs are getting batt voltage. If you want a longer glow cycle (more plug heat), cycle the key to off, then back on as soon as the GP lamp goes out. This should restart the cycle, and the plugs will get hotter. Keep in mind, if the lamp is on, power is being sent to the plugs. If it's off, no power to the plugs. No logic involved here.

The manual GP bypass is very simple for your truck. There are a couple ways to do it, depending on your electrical skills. The easiest way is to energize the relay in the controller, but this relies on the controller relay. If your controller relay fails, this won't help you get started. I suggest using a separate relay, and tie into the GP output lug for independent operation. Very handy when the controller fails. The second method only requires the addition of the separate relay and a more wiring, as compared to the first method. Anyway, I can describe it in further detail when you decide which method you'll use, if you do it.

[hng71]

BioDiesel will gel like #2, only at a higher temp. #2 Diesel will start to wax/gel at 20-25°F. I suggest a winter additive for any temp below freezing. I use Power Service in the white bottle, and it is a regular stock item at Walmart. It works well if used according to the label. You will need about twice the dose for use with Bio. The label lists dosages for temps.

Leaving your key in the "run" position won't give you a longer glow cycle. If anything, it lets them cool off. They are controlled with a timer, and as soon as the GP lamp goes out, there's no juice going to the plugs. The lamp on the dash indicates when the plugs are getting batt voltage. If you want a longer glow cycle (more plug heat), cycle the key to off, then back on as soon as the GP lamp goes out. This should restart the cycle, and the plugs will get hotter. Keep in mind, if the lamp is on, power is being sent to the plugs. If it's off, no power to the plugs. No logic involved here.

The manual GP bypass is very simple for your truck. There are a couple ways to do it, depending on your electrical skills. The easiest way is to energize the relay in the controller, but this relies on the controller relay. If your controller relay fails, this won't help you get started. I suggest using a separate relay, and tie into the GP output lug for independent operation. Very handy when the controller fails. The second method only requires the addition of the separate relay and a more wiring, as compared to the first method. Anyway, I can describe it in further detail when you decide which method you'll use, if you do it.

Thanks again DMaxMavrick, I think I will try to do the second method with the separate relay, it makes more sense to me.... I am pretty handy with cars, just unfamiliar with diesels.
If you can describe the method it would be appreciated.

cheers
Harry

[DmaxMaverick]

You're welcome.

You'll need:

"Ford" type starter relay. About a $10 item at any parts store. If you ask the parts counter person and get the "deer in the headlight look", ask for a starter relay for a 1980 F-150. Model/year isn't critical, I just pulled it out of the air (they are all essentially the same). It only needs to have 2 large lugs, and one small lug (may have 2, but no matter) on it. Get the cheapest one they have (doesn't seem to be a quality issue).

Momentary switch. Can be either push button, or spring loaded NO (normally open) toggle. A push button starter switch works well, and are common/inexpensive.

6-12 feet of 10 ga. wire (stranded primary wire, length depends on where/how you mount the relay).

6-12 feet 14 ga. wire (stranded primary wire, length depends on where/how you mount the relay and switch).

Eyelet terminals for the wire and lugs, and a crimper, or solder terminals.

Split wire loom (optional-looks pro and keeps it neat) and electrical tape (to protect exposed connections and chafe points).

Disconnect the battery ground terminals.

Choose a location for your in-cab switch, and mount it. Choose a location for the relay. As close as possible to the original GP controller is most convenient, and it needs to be mounted to chassis ground, or you'll need to wire a ground to it. Run a 10g wire from the large red wire on the old GP controller (use the same lug) to one of the large lugs on the new relay. This will be the batt+ supply from the alternator wire (verify this with a test light or meter, should be hot with key off). Run a pair of 14g wires from the in-cab switch, one wire to the new relay batt+ lug (or to the other end of that wire at the GP controller, whichever is easiest, and this would be a good place to install an inline 10A fuse, if desired), and the other 14g wire to the "S" terminal on the new relay (small lug). Run a 10g wire from the remaining large lug on the new relay, to the remaining large lug on the old GP controller (this is connected to the GP harnesses, and retains the fusible link in the circuit). Be sure to protect wires where they pass through sheet metal, or other chafe potentials.

Reconnect the battery ground terminals. Note any abnormal arcing (a slight spark may happen, depending on your vehicle's electrical, but it should be small and momentary). If it arcs, the wiring is wrong. Cross that bridge when necessary (double check your new wiring).

If all is wired correctly, the GP's should heat and the GP lamp on the dash should come on when the button is pushed. You should hear the new relay "clunk" with a button push. The old GP controller should also work as it did before.

Depending on which GP's you have installed, be very careful with the length of your manual cycle. AC9G plugs (OEM plugs for your year) will fry with more than about 10 seconds of batt voltage, and it ain't pretty. With 9G's, I use about a 5 second on, 5 second off cycle, as many as necessary. With AC60G plugs, you can glow as necessary to get the heat you need. Experiment until you get it figured out. Start with 10 seconds (60G's). If you have "quick heat", or other aftermarket plugs, ask the supplier/mfg for the proper glow time (5 seconds is usually plenty).

[Subzilla]

Dmax, thanks for the detailed write-up! I modified my '86 a few years ago with the extra in-line resistor to lengthen the glow plug cycles but I've always wanted to also add a push button switch to both the '86 and my older style GP controller '83. Your write-up explains everything quite well.

Such great help exists in abundance on this forum!!

[hng71]

Thats great, hopefully the weather will warm up a bit over the weekend and I can tackle the job. Thanks again for your time and the detailed instructions, looks fairly straight forward.... on another note, I bit the bullet and swapped out the other battery, so now I have 2 new batteries (800cca/ea), got a jump as I had depleted the new one I bought yesterday, got it running and thew in a bottle of diesel conditioner for the winter and drove it for a few miles. I plugged her back in, and am hoping for the best in the morning. Keeping my fingers crossed!!

thanks again DmaxMavrick!!

[DmaxMaverick]

You're welcome. Good luck in the morning. Plugging in and a good pair of batteries should really help.

[hng71]

You're welcome. Good luck in the morning. Plugging in and a good pair of batteries should really help.

Hi DmaxMaverick, just wanted to let you know that the 2 new batteries and the fuel treatment did the trick, I also plug it in when I get home. I have the rig booked in on Monday with my diesel mechanic to get a few things looked at (his shop is a lot warmer than outside)
Thanks again for your insight, have a great Holiday Season!!

cheers
Harry

[hng71]

Hi DmaxMaverick, just out of curiosity, can you tell me why on a regular day when I start my van, I always get a bit of smoke just at start up, its a whitish color and only lasts for about 3-5 sec. then I dont see it for the rest of the day, so I assume its when the block is cold and sitting overnight. But when I use the fuel treatment, it doesnt at all, even now in the -10c?. It also starts up a bit less "cluncky" with the treatment.... partially clogged injectors?

cheers
Harry

[DmaxMaverick]

Hi DmaxMaverick, just out of curiosity, can you tell me why on a regular day when I start my van, I always get a bit of smoke just at start up, its a whitish color and only lasts for about 3-5 sec. then I dont see it for the rest of the day, so I assume its when the block is cold and sitting overnight. But when I use the fuel treatment, it doesnt at all, even now in the -10c?. It also starts up a bit less "cluncky" with the treatment.... partially clogged injectors?

cheers
Harry

Hard to say. Could be any of one, or several reasons. Most often, it is fuel quality, poor injector nozzle spray pattern, or low compression. Many fuel additives improve the combustibility of the fuel, and can reduce the smoke (as most will state on the label). If you have original or old injectors, they may be due for a refresh (replace or rebuild). Normally, there is no "partially clogged injectors. They will either be clogged or not, and they won't only be "clogged" during a start. Using an additive also adds lubrication, which helps the injector pop more cleanly. All that said, it is completely normal to have a short puff of white/gray smoke at cold start. The smoke is there, whether you use an additive or not, and may just be less noticeable when using an additive. I suggest looking at a set of new injectors. It's amazing the difference they can make. IP timing and timing chain wear also play a part with cold starts. If the engine has around 100K or more miles, it could be any, some or all of these possibilities. If you plan on driving it for some time to come, now would be a good time to start planning maintenance and collecting parts. Injectors can be replaced and/or IP timing set can be done independent of anything else. The timing set requires the accessories to be removed, so it's a good time to replace other items, like the balancer, water pump and fan clutch. Good time for a good radiator cleaning/rodding, too.