no pull

[d.h.]

Hey there. I couldn,t wait any longer.This new motor is driving me crazy.As you may or may not know I recently installed pen18:1 engine.The motor on a whole runs ok it just has no power.

The diesel shop that installed did ok job and a reprogrammed ecm from BDor Heath was installed.It"s got BD decals but they said heath was were they accuired them from.It was said that John,s (kennedy) program would give better results.


I just want to pull my fifth wheel (12000lbs) over the mountains without major issues.
It feels as if lack of fueling is holding it back as with intercooler and k&n Iknow its getting enough air flow, Boost is right up there as well.

Is it possible that John's program could change fueling to give more power?


I don;t mean to ramble but with $12 grand invested in this little power plant I,m starting to miss my old engine as it would eat this one
Maybe I'll call John.

As always thanks for any replies
Dave

[john8662]

What do your gauges say?

Boost?

EGT's?

I suspect that if BD is having Heath, or whom ever does Heath's programming to do the flash, that it's simply their tune.

They all DO differ. Heath's tune is likely very different from BD's specification. I'd send the box back and get a real Heath Box, or call up Kennedy and try his tune.

I liked the Heath tune I had for awhile, it definitely added more fuel, and had a totally different timing curve than factory (more advance in certain ranges). The boost control was pretty lacking IMHO, but it was designed to run in conjunction with the Turbomaster, so you had to adjust that yourself. Kennedy's tune will work with either, but more accurately controls the factory boost control system (so I hear).

What did you use for injectors? Marine? These are a worthy upgrade, well worth it IMHO.

[d.h.]

John Guages differ depending on wether I leave boost fooler on or not.With boost fooler removed(which was suggested with progam tune)boost will run up to 10-12lbs but egt's start to climb quickly forcing me to back off.
With boost fooler attached boost will go off over 15lbs (if I let it) but my egt's stay cooler with higher boost.
This was on small grade about 3%over 1/2 mile,pulling my fifth wheel.Speed was down to 50mph from 70mph.
I know at the end of month when I climb the 12% 4mile climb on the "coke" I may need a push truck behind me.
The injectors are high pop so I was told when I bought them.The diesel shop bench checked them and said they were good.

Does an 18:1 require more fuel than my factory engine? My old engine would smoke the tires easy (not that I do that to my new Michelins often) The new engine will not do this.
If I was to put in marine injectors would these not require more fuel?I would really like one of Ron's turbos:D

Thanks Dave

[More Power]

This is one of several comments I've heard over the past several months about power or engine running problems that were the result of mixing non-stock injectors with a factory on-road fuel injection pump (regardless of programming).

If a 6.5 owner has a factory fuel injection pump, he should be running factory spec fuel injectors..... If you have a marine spec IP, then sure, run marine spec fuel injectors.... Otherwise, a matched set of stuff will produce a more predictable result, and make it a lot easier to help troubleshoot a problem.

An 18:1 engine all by itself won't change power much one way or the other, and the only way most would even notice one is during a cold weather start.

Has anyone seen comparison data between non-stock injectors and factory new ones? I've not...

Jim

[d.h.]

Jim Iv'e run so called high pop injectors in my old 6.5 for the last 4 years.I can not say for certain if these were the power aspect of the engine or not

The one thing I can say is my old engine would pull to no end,
This new 18:1 with the same stuff other than new pcm(ecmI'm not sure)is worse than my old 6.5
I,m looking at a 2005 king ranch 6litre as I 'm this discusted with my new 6.5.Sorry but I,m at a loss.....

[john8662]

What program were you running previously? Stock?

If you think you have a headache now, the 6.0 will give you a migrane, there just isn't a bigger POS besides a 5.7L Diesel.

I'd send the PCM back and try something else, sounds like something is seriously amiss.

J

[6.5 Detroit Diesel]

I have been running SS' marine injectors in the truck. No difference really in power gain/loss. Factory pump, but I was told that to make use of the injectors you had to turn the pump up???

DH, where do you live that you are going to be pulling the coke?

[Kennedy]

Jim Iv'e run so called high pop injectors in my old 6.5 for the last 4 years.I can not say for certain if these were the power aspect of the engine or not

The one thing I can say is my old engine would pull to no end,
This new 18:1 with the same stuff other than new pcm(ecmI'm not sure)is worse than my old 6.5
I,m looking at a 2005 king ranch 6litre as I 'm this discusted with my new 6.5.Sorry but I,m at a loss.....

What turbo are you running?

[d.h.]

I have been running SS' marine injectors in the truck. No difference really in power gain/loss. Factory pump, but I was told that to make use of the injectors you had to turn the pump up???

DH, where do you live that you are going to be pulling the coke?

I live in Parksville on the island. I can't wait to see how much the ferry is this year at 54feet
J I think I was just venting about the 6litre as I know they have issues but their c/c dually still looks nice.
John the turbo is a gm8
I changed out my hoses on intercooler as I developed small leak in one of them.This didn't change anything though when i road tested it again.

Thanks Dave

[TAG]

I have a friend with a 98 burb, (posts on here as AC BINGEL), has a westers ecm in his with a pen 18:1. He sent the pcm back around last christmas for the latest upgrades, got it back & it was way down on power, equal or less than stock, but ran smooth. He sent the pcm back, they told him oops, my bad, sent it back to him after reprogramming, now runs like a scalded dog. I have also experienced problems with the heath hp4 chip in my own truck. Moral of the story is the reprogramming doesnt always work first try for whatever reason. If its really a heath, call him, he ll straighten it out for you.

[rustyk]

Something is odd. I replaced my stock (no electronics) '92-era 6.5L GM with the Peninsular 6.5L TD (Hi-pop, large non-waste-gated turbo, etc.) The incease in power is remarkable. So is fuel economy - up from 9.25 mpg to 11+ mpg, horsing a 16K lb. motorhome around.

[d.h.]

Something is odd. I replaced my stock (no electronics) '92-era 6.5L GM with the Peninsular 6.5L TD (Hi-pop, large non-waste-gated turbo, etc.) The incease in power is remarkable. So is fuel economy - up from 9.25 mpg to 11+ mpg, horsing a 16K lb. motorhome around.

Rustyk do you have much bottom end power or does it pull right the way up.I,m trying to compare to somthing as its like its a foreign engine is in my engine bay right now compared to my old one.
I agree somthing is odd.I picked up brothers kabota and trailer tonight about 11000lbs I have a set of railway tracks that I slow for at the bottom of a small grade.Its about 4-5%for 1/2 mile .Could not get over 30mph goin up the grade.
What type of turbo do you have on your engine? I,ve been so busy lately I,ve not had a chance to phone anyone with regards to pcm.I,m still leaning towards the program as I don,t think its getting the fuel that it used to.Does the pcm effect shift points for tranny?I,ve noticed a differance here as well.Truck is always downshifting wereas before it would hang in there a lot longer.I dunno:D
Thanks Dave

[rustyk]

I have power all the way up to yellow line. I have a Borg-Warner non-wastegated turbo. AT 16K lbs. I could accelerate up your hill, and run 45+ to the top.

[micky_blue]

is there anything else that is happening other than low power? strange sounds, lots of smoke, anything? If you have a new engine, i will ASSUME, thats not the issue. If you are showing good boost, then that shouldn't be the issue either. That leaves fuel. I would try a new program, but make sure lift pump is working within proper spec, OPS also. Its silly, but a fuel filter is cheap, swap that. With the swap, check and make sure no kinks got in any of your lines.

just a thought
micky

another idea, clogged cat

[rustyk]

One issue I found is that the Peninsular/AMG engine is a heavy breather compared to stock.. Change your air filter if you haven't already.

[d.h.]

Yes I did change air to k&n I change often so don,t worry about dirt. One thing i'm noticing is more oil in my intercooler hoses.Always let a little down but now there is an actual drip from line.I changed hose to different type,but how much oil should erg?let down there?Seems to be more than usual.Got an email into j.k regarding new program.Won,t be installed before holiday so I'll have to be careful.I'm still leaning to getting rid of truck for new d/max or......I want to pull without fear of destruction!
Thanks Dave

[d.h.]

I had an interesting chat with Bill Heath today.Very imformative fellow.He thinks I should remove my intercooler as it has a negative effect on engine.I believe its to do with air flow to engine.I don,t really understand fully why,as my understanding of the internals of engine is limited.What have you folks with the 18:1 done ? How well would your engines pull a 12000lb fifth wheel.?As much as I want to understand all of this, I feel like it's 1 step forward and 2 back.
Bill did say that with turbo master and factory injectors and a little more engine info that he'd be able to help.
Thanks Dave

[rustyk]

I'm with Bill Heath - at the boost I run (15 psi at most), the friction losses in an intercooler aren't worth installing one - you actually lose a considerable amount of boost, and the higher the boost pressure (and airflow), the higher the losses. Note that it would be a difficult undertaking on my M/H, so there's a bit of sour grapes there. Cooler air is denser, so power increases with its induction, which is the theory behind intercoolers (and EGT is also reduced).

Level cruise @ 60 mph on a usual day (85°F, 60+% RH), I see about 4.5 psi and EGT around 550°F-575°F. I can mount an 8% grade at 30-35 mph with 12 psi and 950-1000°F EGT. 6%, 45 mph, same readings. I could easily go higher, but hill-climbing ain't a race in a motorhome.

That's pushing a 10-foot tall, 8-foor wide, 16K lb. motorhome. You should have no problems pulling a 12K lb. fifth wheel. Recall: My engine is uprated to 230HP/420 lb.-ft. torque., is all mechanical, and has a non-wastegated turbo.

A side note: I decided against the K&N due to reports of dust in the turbo airside intake, and that's expected, because they let more of everything through. My engine gets only Wix filters (or the NAPA Gold rebrand). I have to change 'em more often, but that's because they've collected too much dirt - that otherwise would be in the engine.

Oil in the intercooler hoses (turbo output) could be from oil sucked from the turbo bearings due to a plugged air filter - that happened to me.

[ronniejoe]

He thinks I should remove my intercooler as it has a negative effect on engine.I believe its to do with air flow to engine.

This is extremely bad advice!:eek: I've read where he's recommended against installing intercoolers before, but this is silly. You already have one. Furthermore, his Turbomaster is starting to sound a lot like a pmd cooler I remember -- solves every ill of the 6.5.


at the boost I run (15 psi at most), the friction losses in an intercooler aren't worth installing one - you actually lose a considerable amount of boost

This simply isn't true. It may be an old wive's tale, but it doesn't hold in the real world. I would like to see proof that any loss is greater than two or three psi at above 15 psi indicated.

Your heavy breathing could be due to any number of issues. Check your CDR to make sure it is functioning properly. Also, pull the oil fill cap and see if you are pushing vapor out the tube. If so, there is an internal problem.

Who built this engine anyway?

[Kennedy]

Put a boost gauge pre intercooler and post intercooler and then you will know for sure. You might see a little drop, but nothing major if the IC is sized properly. I know mine is.

[Robyn]

I definately agree that you need to keep the intercooler.
The gains are minimal when your boost is below 15 pounds but the little cooler really starts to shine when you get your foot in it.
Unless the IC is sized way to small the pressure drop (Loss) across the cooler is very small compared to the temperature benefits that are returned.

I have had the same conversation with Bill on such matters.

I have also listened to him rant about the mistakes of installing 18:1 pistons too..

Well I just let that stuff roll off the ducks back and let it go.

The closer to ambient you can get your charge air temp the better.

In really hot dry weather an alcohol/water injector would really help charge density and the alcohol will burn and add some power too.

If charge air coolers were such a bad idea, I'm sure that all the big truck manufactures would not spend the bucko's to install them.

My early model Cat 3406 had a water jacket after cooler in the intake manifold and all the new 500 cat I have runs a huge charge cooler out front of the radiator.

This engine produces 30PSI under full power. The new Cats are running about 50 PSI of manifold pressure with a dual turbo setup.

Now all these numbers mean nothing when it comes to a 6.5 but the technology is still useful and can benefit anyone looking for the last bit of power from their little GM diesel.

I can feel the difference in power in my 6.5 from as cool damp morning to a hot dry afternoon. The difference is quite noticeable.

I can feel it and see it in the instruments on the big rig the same way.

Hot dry air in equals less power.

** Just a note***
On the 6.5, unless you size the turbo a little different and use a unit that spools up faster, you could see a little slower boost rise time (turbo lag) with the IC as compared to without it. This would be due mostly to the amount of volume that is in the plumbing and the cooler.

All this area has to pressurize and the larger the volume the longer it will take to get up to pressure.
Granted, this may only be a second or two longer but it can be seen in tests.

My Dually has a stock turbo (GM4) and with the engine mods and large exhaust it will spool right up and be up to max boost very quickly off the line (a second or two)

I have owned Powerstrokes that had a buttload longer spoolup times.


Best

Robyn

[Mark Rinker]

>>>

That's pushing a 10-foot tall, 8-foor wide, 16K lb. motorhome. You should have no problems pulling a 12K lb. fifth wheel. Recall: My engine is uprated to 230HP/420 lb.-ft. torque., is all mechanical, and has a non-wastegated turbo.

A side note: I decided against the K&N due to reports of dust in the turbo airside intake, and that's expected, because they let more of everything through. >>>


Observations/comments:

Motorhome: 16K
Truck and 5th wheel: ~20K GCVW (gross combined vehicle weight)

My experience with a stock internal 6.5, with Heath chip/turbomaster, no intercooler and various trailered loads was >18K gross combined the hill speed holding really fell away quickly. Up to that was acceptable. We limited the trailer and cargo weight to ~12K max as a result.

Agree on paper OEM style vs. oiled gauze style. All you need to do is use a white cloth to clean your air intake post-filter and you'll see a big difference in what gets by a K&N. Great for gassers, IMO.

I am suprised nobody has tried to adapt the 2006-later DMax airboxes with new style filter to a 6.5. Maybe not enough room, but what a huge surface area OEM filter...

I'm with JK, get the numbers and make an educated decision based on that, rather than opinion.

[More Power]

I had an interesting chat with Bill Heath today.Very imformative fellow.He thinks I should remove my intercooler as it has a negative effect on engine.I believe its to do with air flow to engine.I don,t really understand fully why,as my understanding of the internals of engine is limited.What have you folks with the 18:1 done ? How well would your engines pull a 12000lb fifth wheel.?As much as I want to understand all of this, I feel like it's 1 step forward and 2 back.
Bill did say that with turbo master and factory injectors and a little more engine info that he'd be able to help.
Thanks Dave

Unlike some, I actually performance tested an 18:1 6.5 with/without an intercooler. Only those who don't have an intercooler or those who don't sell an intercooler would suggest an intercooler would hurt performance. :confused:

The tests I conducted in 1999 included setting the GM-8 to produce a range of boost pressures from 10 to 15 psi. The best 0-60 times came with 11-12 psi sustained boost pressure, and the addition of an intercooler cut a full second off the 0-60 times.

My 18:1 pulled like a healthy FI 454, with power all across the rpm range.

On a related subject: Through the years, we've had an occasional vendor who argued against the DSG gear drive timing set. They didn't sell it, so they were against it.

Jim

[rustyk]

This simply isn't true. It may be an old wive's tale, but it doesn't hold in the real world. I would like to see proof that any loss is greater than two or three psi at above 15 psi indicated.

3 psi is 20%. I should have worded the prior post more accurately - since my coach is a pusher, it would take at least six elbows and 8+ feet of piping to get the intercooler into a bit of airflow - and for me losses wouldn't be worth it.


Your heavy breathing could be due to any number of issues. Check your CDR to make sure it is functioning properly. Also, pull the oil fill cap and see if you are pushing vapor out the tube. If so, there is an internal problem.

Who built this engine anyway?

The "heavy breathing" is due to the larger, non-wastegated turbo (it'll go past 15 psi and the old one, 6-7psi), and the fact the engine isn't pulling around a 4,000 lb. pickup. Twice I've had the turbo intake elbow collapse, so change the air filter more frequently than I used to. My sig has the engine details. The CDR is new (10 months/10K miles).

[ronniejoe]

The "heavy breathing" is due to the larger, non-wastegated turbo (it'll go past 15 psi and the old one, 6-7psi), and the fact the engine isn't pulling around a 4,000 lb. pickup.

I was referring these comments to D.H.

If your CDR valve is working properly, you shouldn't see much increase in oil in the intake.

[JohnC]

In any properly installed intercooler there is still a pressure loss. But, it's due to the temperature decrease, not to some flow restriction introduced by the intercooler. Remember, PV=nrT.... (If the temp goes down so does the product of the pressure and volume. Since the volume isn't changing it must be the pressure....)

[d.h.]

Thank for all replies.I had this intercooler on old engine and it made a huge differance with it.I,m still leaning towards programming.The cdr is fairly new but I will check to be sure.

I need to give this engine a chance I just thought it would be easier.When I return from holiday (hopefully with truck still intact) I'll order new pcm.I,ts got new michelins,new winshield and new brakes now so those areas should be good:D

[Kennedy]

Unlike some, I actually performance tested an 18:1 6.5 with/without an intercooler. Only those who don't have an intercooler or those who don't sell an intercooler would suggest an intercooler would hurt performance. :confused:

The tests I conducted in 1999 included setting the GM-8 to produce a range of boost pressures from 10 to 15 psi. The best 0-60 times came with 11-12 psi sustained boost pressure, and the addition of an intercooler cut a full second off the 0-60 times.

My 18:1 pulled like a healthy FI 454, with power all across the rpm range.

On a related subject: Through the years, we've had an occasional vendor who argued against the DSG gear drive timing set. They didn't sell it, so they were against it.
Jim

This is Mr Heath's standard MO. He has never put his 6.5 truck on the DP Pull Off hill in any meaningful comparative test. He's had it there and when the trailer was hooked up, that poor little 1500 (the one that he uses to tow test his mods with heavy loads :rolleyes:) pointed the headlights at the sky with a load that barely made a 2500 squat.

As for WI, he first invented his system in the 80's with the 6.2 and Banks Turbos supposedly outfitting many loggers of the time. Then in the late 90's he came to MT with a supposed "progressive" kit that used boost psi to charge the tank and a squirter nozzle (no atomization) to inject pre turbo. Problem is, this is not progressive as the tank holds your last boost level and resumes at this level at the next call for water. There were a couple of "kits" sold to DP members. Anybody remember big Mike from Vegas area? He had a filter plugged full of rust because the steel tank provided turned orange inside. Then the "kits" were discontinued and I believe he picked up intercoolers. Then the Snow/Labonte thing came up and the WI was resumed and the IC apparently cast aside.


Personally, I don't care what a guy/gal does to lower temps, but there is no substitute for a good IC. The onle ones who doubt this are those who haven't had one.

As for my "vested interest" in selling Intercoolers, there is a very good possibility that I will no longer carry them. It seems they may be discontinued. I'm doing what I can to keep the product alive, but they just don't sell all that well in a declining market. Smae with our Fan clutch etc. I don't keep this stuff around simply to make money as the sales volume versus cost doesn't make economic sense. I keep this stuff around because there is a definite need...


As for the 18:1 debate (draw your own conclusions) It is my experience that off boost the 6.5 does lose some TQ, but more than makes up for that once it gets a little bei of boost and RPM. Let's face it, the 6.5 has never been a TQ monster. It needs some RPM and boost to run strong. The DP Pull Off event has been a great proving ground for these beasts and has proven that they are no slouch. RJ's run really impressed me and showed what a GOOD turbo can do for a healthy 6.5...