Why diesel fuel is higher priced than gasoline...

[More Power]

One reason why diesel fuel today is higher priced than gasoline is because of the 2007 EPA mandate for ULSD fuel - and not because it costs more to produce.....

The 500-ppm sulfur pre-2007 diesel fuel was not usable in Europe, so it wasn't exported. Producing ULSD means this fuel is now acceptable for use in Europe, and a lot of the diesel fuel being produced today here in the U.S. is being shipped to Europe. The economics of "Supply & Demand" have simply fallen apart here in the U.S. as a way of pricing fuel. We could stop using diesel fuel entirely, and it wouldn't produce lower diesel fuel prices.

Read this 2/08 Reuters article, entitled: ANALYSIS-Exports keep U.S. diesel prices above gasoline (http://uk.reuters.com/article/oilRpt/idUKN1151397820080211)

This is the result of our government regulations working for the American people...not... :(

[ronniejoe]

This is the result of our government regulations working for the American people...not... :(

True! True!

I've been telling my kids this for a year now...

Congress has, again, been hauling in the oil company execs to grill them on prices accusing them of collusion. This is ridiculous. What I want to know is when is someone gonna haul congress in (particularly the Democrat party) and grill them about high oil prices?

I heard the North American CEO of Shell fire back during his inquisition. He was responding to Leaky Lahey's question about free market forces. He said (and I'm paraphrasing), "The congress of the United States has placed regulatory barriers to exploration and production of domestic crude and construction of refineries. This is not a free market. You have artificially limited supply through regulations." I cheered so loudly it was embarrassing. I even called Shell's corporate office and left a message commending the guy for having the courage to defend himself and speak the truth when every politician is pandering to the public and grand standing. I told him he had no idea how much I appreciated his comments to the idiots in Congress.

I also sent my congressman a letter chastising him for voting in favor of that idiot bill that will allow our Justice Department to sue OPEC. Like that will create any more supply.

[More Power]

I agree with you on the short sightedness of not allowing exploration and increasing production. However, in light of the fact that nearly everyone is sick about importing foreign oil, why do we export any petroleum products?

If we weren't exporting ULSD, diesel fuel would cost a lot less.....

I would not support more exploration, more refineries or other petro development if an increase in supply would simply be exported. Our nation's security requires us to be energy independent, and we can't get there by exporting petro products or energy.

Speaking of which, on a trip to BC last month, I saw a loaded coal train winding its way through the Cascade mountains east of Seattle. I wasn't aware of a coal fired electric plant in Seattle. Any guesses where that train load of U.S. coal was headed? Coal that could otherwise be converted to syn petroleum...

Jim

[ronniejoe]

It's a global economy. Products are sold where ever there is a market. Exports are good for us, whether it is oil, fuel or other products. Isolationist policies have failed miserably in the past and will fail miserably again.

One could argue that ULSD shouldn't be exported until all of our domestic supply needs have been met. My question is...has anyone noticed a lack of supply in the US?

[JTodd]

Are we doing political threads again? Can I play?

[More Power]

Opinions about rising fuel costs are OK, which are what this thread is about. There's enough blame to go around for both political parties. Neither party has a solution for rising gas/diesel costs. All the while, the economy is in peril.

Yes, we have a global economy. But, a lot of the domestic oil and energy resources are found on and extracted from U.S. public lands. I believe the U.S. public should have a say in our energy policy (Congress isn't helping). Energy independence would have a profound effect on national security. A coal to oil program could produce enough synthetic petroleum to replace all OPEC oil for the next 200 years at the current import rate. We need to divorce ourselves from OPEC - for the future of our country.

We need to either protect the oil flowing from the Middle East (i.e. have the military there) OR we need to expand U.S. energy exploration/production here at home. We must do one or the other. Likewise, if we expand domestic energy production, we cannot then export it, or what's the point?

Jim

[SoTxPollock]

RonnieJoe, I thought I was the only one who had it figured out. People that engineer things must think alike, since our screw-ups become so obvious when they get to manufacturing. It better work or else, yes I agree with what you have said. That being said, I'm sure glad Mark has a good sense of humor. Like many today that are way too busy making a living those drive by news spots are all a lot of people have time to see, before its on to something else. It's so easy to let someone else do it. The liberal left has convinced most in this country that the government should be doing something about that, whatever that is. Just throw more money at it and the problem will go away, thats a real good hidden way of buying votes, but its gotten our country so complacent and non-responsive to anything there are many who just don't care anymore.
Congrads on the family achievements, if only everyone had a chance to have a real family, thank God every day for that opportunity.
One think about the war on terror, the democrats had 8 years with Clinton to do something about it, Bush had 9 months in office when 9/11 took place. So who do we blame unchecked terrorism throughout the world on?
I too have noticed the lack of real news in this country for a long time. My daughter only watches BBC news, she's convinced we aren't going to be told anything of really what is going on in the world by American news reporting. So sad, this political correctness crap.

We need more individual thinkers-- not yes people. What good is diolog if we all make each other feel good and say what we think the other person wants to hear. What ever happened to truth?
If someone has something to say let them say it, its our right. God created humans with free will, don't let anyone ever steal that away from you friend.

End of rant
Thank you.

STP

[Mark Rinker]

Agreed, MP. Continued dependence on foreign oil is a formula for being held hostage for it - in fact it feels that way right now.

How far away are we from 100% biodiesel and can that be sustained? i.e. Could you run a farm where all vehicles and machinery burn B100 and produce more B100 (or the necessary quantity/bushels of inputs like soy, sunflower, or other to produce a greater number of gallons of B100) than you consume in the operation of the farm?

My complaint with the corn ethanol programs is the vast amounts of petroleum products burned and expended (grease, lubricants) in the production and transportation of the corn. Many claim that without the farm subsidies, the programs would fail, so this departure only adds to our energy problem, not solves it. What is the truth?

Until we are burning the products (B100, E100) made of 100% bio-mass to produce bio-mass, we are still dependent...right?

[More Power]

I watched a program on TV last night that said it costs $1.25 to produce $1.00 worth or ethanol. The eth program is a disaster, both from an economic model standpoint as well as increasing food costs - here at home and world-wide.

Alcohol from wood products and other less valuable sources are a possibility.

I've talked to local farmers who are considering crops that are high in veg oil, to allow them to produce their own bio-diesel. A local dairy farmer installed a $1M methane plant to extract the gas from manure. He's expecting he (and his cows) will produce enough energy to power his entire operation and be able to sell electricity back to the grid (runs a methane fired engine to spin a generator). Landfills are looking at methane extraction as well.

Wind farms have doubled in size here in Montana in recent years - to a point that the power company is balking at accepting their capacity (they want to sell not buy).

Jim

[Mark Rinker]

We generate power here in Elk River with methane extracted from our landfill. There are large wind farms in SW Minnesota, near Pipestone.

http://www.epa.gov/lmop/res/elk.htm

Lots of overdimensional, specialized hauling in wind power. If MRE can survive these challenging times, I might gravitate towards some diversification and use lessons learned in marine oversize loads, applied to wind tower parts.

[93GMCSierra]

I would like to step in here and say I have heard great points from everyone, We can not blame everything one one person, as much as we would like to put a face to our problem, The fault lies in alot of people over alot of time. We as voters have been lax and misinformed for so long alot of us just say screw it, its not worth the hassle of digging for the truth, and that is really a bad thing.
I believe there is a very dedicated interest in inflating and keeping the prices high, a dispirited populace is much easier to control, I very much would like to disagree with the spreading freedom thing though, I have not seen how you can Force Freedom, kinda Ironic dont you think.

Oh and to add to the bio thing, I would very much like to see more production of bio from non food, not livestock feed either, like algae as that will give the most benefit without driving food prices through the roof.

[gillguy]

I don't understand why bio diesel isn't available in more places. Here in GA I know of 7, yes seven bio places but they can't sell to me because of the tax credits they receive from selling to retailers. If you ask a retailer why they don't carry bio, they just say that ULSD is required. I think it's just bunk. Why set the requirement for ULSD but yet continue to say that we need to find alternative fuel? :confused:
Heck my truck will run off soy bean oil then lets fill it up!
Yesterday diesel was $4.45 when I filled up at 830am. Today it was $4.79 :mad:
What the hell is going on with diesel??
I may have to build a bigger shed and start making my own fuel.
And don't get me on the Democrat/Republican s--t either
When I vote I'll be writing my name on the ballot.
Yep just write in gillguy for Pres:D

[JeepSJ]

I don't understand why bio diesel isn't available in more places. Here in GA I know of 7, yes seven bio places but they can't sell to me because of the tax credits they receive from selling to retailers. If you ask a retailer why they don't carry bio, they just say that ULSD is required. I think it's just bunk. Why set the requirement for ULSD but yet continue to say that we need to find alternative fuel? :confused:
Heck my truck will run off soy bean oil then lets fill it up!
Yesterday diesel was $4.45 when I filled up at 830am. Today it was $4.79 :mad:
What the hell is going on with diesel??
I may have to build a bigger shed and start making my own fuel.
And don't get me on the Democrat/Republican s--t either
When I vote I'll be writing my name on the ballot.
Yep just write in gillguy for Pres:D

Then there is the station here that sells Bio in blends from B2 all the way up to B100. Funny thing is that the B100 ALWAYS seems to follow the price of diesel, and of course the blends are slightly higher "due to the cost of diesel".

The more I think about it, the more I want to push forming a small co-op with some neighbors and just brew our own.

[More Power]

I did more reading today about oil exports from the North Slope of AK. I found an article on the Seattle Times web site, entitled Where would ANWR oil go? (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002245699_export17m.html) that helped answer the question about past oil exports and possibly any future exports.

In short, Congress did pass laws in the 1970's that prevented exports of AK crude, till 1995, when the laws were changed, then just a trickle was exported till 2000, then just one tanker load since then. It seems the West Coast could take almost all of it. Opening ANWR would make exporting more likely.

In the above Seattle Times article, I found it interesting that the oil companies were concerned about whether refineries on the West Coast could handle all the North Slope oil field production, and if they couldn't handle it all and if it couldn't be shipped to Asia, that fact would reduce the price of that oil... Isn't that the idea?.... Oversupply reducing costs... Would seem reasonable to keep the oil field in production for as long as possible, feeding the demand, and not suck the region dry as quickly as possible. I would liken it to a retirement fund. You wouldn't go on a spending spree once turning 65, trying to spend all the money you could as quickly as you could. You would more likely string it out, hoping your supply lasted as long as you needed it to.

Jim

[JeepSJ]

I did more reading today about oil exports from the North Slope of AK. I found an article on the Seattle Times web site, entitled Where would ANWR oil go? (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2002245699_export17m.html) that helped answer the question about past oil exports and possibly any future exports.

In short, Congress did pass laws in the 1970's that prevented exports of AK crude, till 1995, when the laws were changed, then just a trickle was exported till 2000, then just one tanker load since then. It seems the West Coast could take almost all of it. Opening ANWR would make exporting more likely.

In the above Seattle Times article, I found it interesting that the oil companies were concerned about whether refineries on the West Coast could handle all the North Slope oil field production, and if they couldn't handle it all and if it couldn't be shipped to Asia, that fact would reduce the price of that oil... Isn't that the idea?.... Oversupply reducing costs... Would seem reasonable to keep the oil field in production for as long as possible, feeding the demand, and not suck the region dry as quickly as possible. I would liken it to a retirement fund. You wouldn't go on a spending spree once turning 65, trying to spend all the money you could as quickly as you could. You would more likely string it out, hoping your supply lasted as long as you needed it to.

Jim

One would also think that the oil companies would be happy to sell the stuff at $130/barrel on the open market.

I also recently read somewhere that the AK stuff is "sour", versus the "sweet" that comes out of the mideast. Sweet and sour are related to the sulfur content. Sweet has a lower sulfur content, ans sour is higher. It went on to say that the sweet was easier to refine and that the majority of our existing refineries were not set up to refine the sour stuff.

Can we force companies to take care of the US consumption needs first? No, not really. We can try to limit exports, but that would not force them to do anything locally. Does the government need to get into the oil production and refining business?

So as a "what-if" scenario, what would happen if the US Government decided to go into the oil business? Anything they produced would be sold to refineries for fuels that could not be exported. In addition, there would be limits on the amount of markup that could be added throughout the distribution chain.

Alternately, what if they did sell on the open market?

Or, how about the US, Canada and Mexico creating their own version of OPEC? That would certainly have an affect on the world oil market.

Of course you would still need a government that would stand up to the ecofreaks and tell them to go pound sand.

Are we the only oil producing country where the Government isn't in control of oil production?

[More Power]

I get the "open market" and "free enterprise system" arguments. I'm with you on that. However, a large percentage of the crude comes from public lands, and the U.S. is at significant risk, both foreign and domestic because of the many vulnerabilities associated with the importation of so much foreign oil.

Energy independence is a more significant factor in national security than say, super computers. Foreign sales of super computers are tightly controlled. Same with satelite navigation and inertial navigation equipment. Same with certain types of bio-medical research, radar absorption technology, aerospace technology, nuclear technology and on and on and on.... which are all produced by U.S. private companies.

We can continue to send $800B to our enemies every year to buy their oil, continue to run up the national debt and trade deficit, crush our economy due to high energy prices, reduce our standard of living to that in the third world - or we can become energy independent. Exporting oil and petroleum products push us farther away from that goal. We have enough resources right here at home to maintain current consumption levels for the next 100-200 years (depending on whose data you trust). I vote for energy independence... ;)

Jim

PS - The citizens of Montana were asked on a ballot initiative 2-3 years ago whether to buy the many hydroelectric facilities located here in Montana and make them a state owned/run operation. Electric rates were de-regulated sometime before that, and some believed electricity could become unaffordable to the average citizen. Remember the blackouts in CA and rising electric rates? I cast my vote in opposition to buying the facilities. Just like the hydroelectric plants, I believe in leaving the oil business in private hands, but with restrictions (i.e. the Montana Public Service Commission continues to play a part in establishing electric rates). The entire U.S. is a mighty big market in which to sell gas & diesel fuel.

[sholsten]

Congresswoman Threatens To NATIONALIZE Oil Companies!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUaY3LhJ-IQ

[16gaSxS]

:( a bunch of deleted posts looks like I missed some entertainment!!!

I look at the failing to drill in the USA and build refineries a bit different than many. The Oil that is rumored to be on the Eastern Front of the Rockies (my back yard) is not going anywhere. The time will come when people have had enough to run over the road blocks of production. Could it make sense to burn Middle East reserves first and save our own for later??? As the further past Peak Oil we get the more valuable our unproven reserves become. Just a thought.

[JeepSJ]

:( a bunch of deleted posts looks like I missed some entertainment!!!

I look at the failing to drill in the USA and build refineries a bit different than many. The Oil that is rumored to be on the Eastern Front of the Rockies (my back yard) is not going anywhere. The time will come when people have had enough to run over the road blocks of production. Could it make sense to burn Middle East reserves first and save our own for later??? As the further past Peak Oil we get the more valuable our unproven reserves become. Just a thought.

But at what cost to our current economy? And what is the timeline to get everything set up to start pumping that oil?

I can see the point about drilling, but what about refining capacity? Even if we wanted to save our reserves, the fact remains that we are just about peaked on refining capacity. Shouldn't we at least increase refining capacity now?

[ronniejoe]

This whole idea that we're running out of oil is nothing more than a media creation to force public opinion. Back in the '70's, they said we'd be out of oil now... We're not. There is more oil in the ground than any of us can imagine.

[More Power]

We're currently importing 15 million barrels of crude per day. At $130/bbl, this equals about $712 Billion dollars for all of 2008. I seriously doubt the U.S. can continue hemorrhaging that amount of cash for too many more years...

Gasoline supplies on hand have been recently reported to be at a 14 year high. We're exporting a lot of ULSD (which is why diesel costs more than gas). We don't need more refining capacity.

Jim

[16gaSxS]

Jeep;

I agree we need refineries, no new one built in over 30 years.............:eek:

Our Governor here in Montana a Democrat suggest during his Election that we build 3-4 new refineries in Montana on the "High Line" along US Rte 2 and near the main line of BNSF Rail Road. Oil could come from both the Montana fields and Canada. He has not said much concerning this, just the Synthetic fuels.

I personally would like to see: Drill Here. Drill Now. Pay Less.

The current Oil situation is self created and those of us who understand the hows and whys have been over ridden by the forces against development. The same time you can't get Synthetic oil plants off the ground with $25-30 oil when break even is $50+. Our economy is in big state of change and with all change there will be winner, losers and WHINERS........ I'll take Swiss with mine please!
:rolleyes:

A very vocal minority has had a great amount of impact on energy production and Industrial development in this country. We typically go overboard in this country, and do a very poor job on 5-10year+ planning. Good part of it is due to the fact than many people have a attitude of: Hey the house payment or rent is made, there is a 12 pack in the Fridge and there is game on don't bother me about serious stuff.

[TheJDMan]

I don't see why everyone is so surprised by these fuel prices. What do you expect when the President and VP are both big time oil men and their families are well connected within the oil industry? As long as this administration is in office the oil companies will be free to charge anything they like and make all sorts of lame excuses without fear of any real government pressure. I also fail to see why the oil companies should continue to receive 18 billion dollars a year in tax incentives while at the same time reporting hundreds of billions of dollars in profit. It is obvious to me that the oil companies are trying to make as much money as they can now before a new president takes office. I also suspect time will show that this president will go down as one of the worst presidents in US history.

[JeepSJ]

I don't see why everyone is so surprised by these fuel prices. What do you expect when the President and VP are both big time oil men and their families are well connected within the oil industry? As long as this administration is in office the oil companies will be free to charge anything they like and make all sorts of lame excuses without fear of any real government pressure. I also fail to see why the oil companies should continue to receive 18 billion dollars a year in tax incentives while at the same time reporting hundreds of billions of dollars in profit. It is obvious to me that the oil companies are trying to make as much money as they can now before a new president takes office. I also suspect time will show that this president will go down as one of the worst presidents in US history.

Maybe you can explain how the President and his administration are able to control the price of a globally traded commodity? While you are at it, please show how increased consumption by China and India (and a few others) have NOT had an impact on world oil prices?

While you are at it, can you explain the difference between "profit" and "profit margin"? If you have a record sales volume, would you not also expect record profits?

One final thing, can you tell us why Pelosi and her goons have blocked drilling and exploration sites?

[ronniejoe]

I don't see why everyone is so surprised by these fuel prices. What do you expect when the President and VP are both big time oil men and their families are well connected within the oil industry? As long as this administration is in office the oil companies will be free to charge anything they like and make all sorts of lame excuses without fear of any real government pressure. I also fail to see why the oil companies should continue to receive 18 billion dollars a year in tax incentives while at the same time reporting hundreds of billions of dollars in profit. It is obvious to me that the oil companies are trying to make as much money as they can now before a new president takes office. I also suspect time will show that this president will go down as one of the worst presidents in US history.

:rolleyes: The looney conspiracy theories never end...:eek:

[More Power]

The above three posts have nothing to do with why diesel fuel costs more than gasoline, which is what this thread is about.

Don't go down the political road.

Jim

[Mark Rinker]

If you have a record sales volume, would you not also expect record profits?

In short, not always.

The transportation sector, including tiny company MRE, is experiencing good volume (record gross sales numbers, as prices have risen, following fuel costs) but most - including tiny MRE - are recording lower net profits, as all input costs have also increased as a result (tires, brakes, oil, repairs, insurance, advertising, wages, etc.)

That is the interesting point. The oil companies consume barrels of oil to produce their products. Their main input cost has spiraled, but their profit margins have remained healthy, or they couldn't be posting the record net profit numbers. One can only arrive at the conclusion that they have more demand, and less competition than your average Joe in the transportation sector...like MRE.

As for diesel costing more than gasoline, I have to agree with MP's observation that ULSD is now a world commodity, so we are paying world prices. It also contains more energy per gallon than unleaded, so I guess it makes sense. Not sure how it was so cheap for so many years. Has it historically been higher priced overseas, when compared to unleaded?

[More Power]

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/dieselprices.jpg

This above shows the distillate composition for a barrel of crude oil (a barrel being 42 gallons). We've all heard many times that more diesel fuel (or similar density products) are produced from each barrel. As you can see, there are more gallons of gas per barrel than any other.

[afgunn]

The only positive to these higher fuel prices is that it makes all the alternatives much, much more cost effective. All of this happened in the '80s and a lot of different alternative fuels (Gasohol), tax incentives, rebates, some regulation (55mph - except Montana!), conservation and subsidies were enacted. This was so effective that OPEC dropped the oil prices until it was no longer cost effective to pursue any of the alternatives and/or conservation. I do not believe that this will happen again because of the current and increasing world demand. We cannot "conserve" our way out of the crisis this time. We should learn from past history, that enterprising individuals and not government will solve this present crisis.

It is interesting to me that everytime the fuel prices have gone up they have always settled on an app. 100% increase. For gasoline: .30 to .60 a gallon, then ~ $1.20 a gallon, then ~ $2.40 a gallon and now ~ $4.80 a gallon. Is it what the market will bear!? Don't get me wrong, it is painful for me as well - more than some and less than others. There are some things I will no longer do and others that I will change. I will be burning wood for hear this winter not propane - had it taken out.

My biggest recommendation would be to start or get involved in a bio-diesel co-op. This is one reason I own an older mechanical IDI diesel. My brother raises a few cattle and has a need for diesel fuel for his farm needs. So, with my help and suggestion, we are looking into growing oil seed crops to power our vehicles, heat our homes and feed his few cattle. It is small scale but this is what has really worked so many times in the past when America was in trouble. American's have been very ingenious in the past - I hope we can this time as well. Remember, Victory Gardens for WWII!? I do NOT have DIRECT experience with this! I am not THAT old!

Just wait until heating season comes this fall! There is going to be some REAL pain at the HOME to go with the pain at the PUMP! All of this is a bad, bad situation especially for anyone in a northern climate on a fixed income! It may be disastrous for many! Do you buy fuel, food or heat!? Which can you do without! And they ALL are going up.

Utilities are starting to pass along higher operation costs due to the fuel costs. It is a snowball effect. And our financial and strategic security is at stake! America destroyed, not by any military, but by spiraling fuel costs all while sitting on top of some the largest fuel reserves in the world! Is this to be our history?!

A side note is that cattle, pig and poultry growers have been selling down their herds/flocks to lower their feed costs and this will cause a shortage of beef, poultry and pork. Decrease supply with a fixed demand and what will happen - prices go up. This will be on top of the higher prices due to the higher fuel costs.

And no... I am not optimistic. I am too much of a realist to be optimistic about this.

[ronniejoe]

I'm optimistic! This whole bubble is going to burst and fuel prices are going to plummet. I look for it before the end of the year, but that may be too optimistic. The outrage is growing. The folks standing in the way are about to be bowled over.

[ronniejoe]

It's interesting how President Bush lifted the Executive Moratorium on OCS drilling...and the price of oil dropped. Guess that refutes the primary Democrat talking point that drilling here, drilling now will not affect the price for over a decade.:rolleyes: Just imagine what would happen if congress were to get off it's duff and lift their ban on the OCS and ANWR.

This also proves that the "big oil boogey man" isn't the cause of the price run up and takes away another Democrat talking point. Market forces are. The mere possibility that the supply would increase because we get serious about drilling caused the market to tumble.

As I stated in a previous post, the Hydroplate Theory predicts that there will be massive quantities of oil discovered inside the arctic circle. Here's a recent article: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601082&sid=aqEDMhrCvp28

I suspect that the estimates in this article for the quantity available are very conservative.

Democrat Congressman Salizar recently sneaked language through in another bill to prohibit the exploration and exploitation of oil shale in Colorado (MP wrote much about this resource in his editorial). Couple this with Ms. Pelosi's declared war against drilling in the OCS and it should be coming clear to the American people that the Democrat party is standing in the way of lowering fuel prices and want you to pay more at the pump.

Furthermore, a recent article that I read revealed that several Democrat Congressman are trying to push through a ten cent per gallon tax increase on both Diesel fuel and gasoline.:eek: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/20/AR2008072000279.html So much for the summer tax holiday, huh. Seems our market driven reduction in demand for fuel has cut the amount of revenue taken in from the gas tax. And we all know the government can't do with less... This should be political suicide. If Republicans would get off their duffs and take up the energy issue as their own, they would have a resounding victory in November. Sadly, I don't think they have the cajones to do so.:confused:

It's too early to tell for sure, but the optimism that I expressed in the previous post may be rewarded soon as the price of oil keeps falling.

[More Power]

Furthermore, a recent article that I read revealed that several Democrat Congressman are trying to push through a ten cent per gallon tax increase on both Diesel fuel and gasoline.:eek:

California, a few years ago raised taxes on gasoline because there was a shift toward more efficient cars, which produced a drop in tax revenues. A sizable percentage of CA's motor fuel tax goes into their general fund - meaning a percentage is not used for highway construction/maintenance.

California recently made it much more difficult for the home-brew SVO/WVO crowd to produce a diesel fuel substitute at home. CA now requires that anyone making/brewing/storing SVO/WVO bio-diesel first buy a $300 commercial fuel permit, obtain a $1M hazard insurance policy, and pay motor fuel taxes on the fuel they produce. The Governator was shocked recently to learn that he owed back taxes on the bio fuels he has burned in his Hummers. What a great state!

You can bet that as the rest of America begins to use less motor fuel, the taxes will go up to maintain the cash cow. I've asked this before, sort of in jest, about what would happen if America shifted toward electric cars...

Like tobacco, the gov really doesn't want America off fossil fuels - no matter how sincerely some in Washington believe in global warming. It's an easy to tax commodity.

Jim

[a5150nut]

You can bet that as the rest of America begins to use less motor fuel, the taxes will go up to maintain the cash cow. I've asked this before, sort of in jest, about what would happen if America shifted toward electric cars...

Like tobacco, the gov really doesn't want America off fossil fuels - no matter how sincerely some in Washington believe in global warming. It's an easy to tax commodity.

Jim

Jim I think you are right about taxing by the gallon. It would be all to easy the tamper with an odometer. And California is the leader on taxation!

[ronniejoe]

California recently made it much more difficult for the home-brew SVO/WVO crowd to produce a diesel fuel substitute at home. CA now requires that anyone making/brewing/storing SVO/WVO bio-diesel first buy a $300 commercial fuel permit, obtain a $1M hazard insurance policy, and pay motor fuel taxes on the fuel they produce. The Governator was shocked recently to learn that he owed back taxes on the bio fuels he has burned in his Hummers. What a great state!

Does anyone seriously believe that this was done for safety? :rolleyes: Surely it wasn't done to control or intrude on the lives of private citizens!:eek:

California is the poster child for liberalism run amok. I really enjoy visiting parts of that state, but I certainly would not want to live there. In 2003, we spent nearly two weeks in southern and central California (Mt. Whitney, Sequoia/Kings Canyon National Parks, San Francisco for my wife to compete in the Escape from Alcatraz Triathlon, camped on Angel Island after sailing there on my brother-in-laws sail boat, Yosemite National Park among other stops). While at the Whitney Portal campground (yes, I pulled my 32' trailer up there...there were only three sites big enough to accommodate it), my reserve plastic fuel can with five gallons of Diesel in it got eaten by a bear...it was stowed under my trailer. Since we were near the beginning of the trip, I stopped at a hardware store to buy a replacement. I couldn't believe how expensive the jugs were and I couldn't find a vent on them anywhere. Then I realized that they all had some over-engineered automatic valve with automatic vent built into it on the nozzle. I asked the attendant about this and he laughed and said, "You're not from California!" I said, "No." He then explained that state law required these types of nozzles on the gas jugs.

To make a long story short, the thing doesn't poor well because the vent air has to make its way in through a small port in the pooring spout. The spout is spring loaded so that you have to hold it against the fill neck or opening of whatever you are filling (or, cheat and hold it open with one hand while holding the jug with the other and a spare knee:rolleyes:). I still use the thing because it was so expensive to purchase. My kids and I call it the "California can" for obvious reasons. I've never seen anything like it anywhere outside of California.

This is a fine example of the effects of unchecked liberalism and an activist government. Something as simple as a fuel can has to be turned into a ridiculous pain in the butt.:eek:

[DmaxMaverick]

I have several of those cans. I hate them, but that's all we can get anymore. They are just about worthless for filling a vehicle (or anything, for that matter). Even says so on the label, "not to be used for fueling automobiles", and you can't get one that does. They make a mess filling just about anything. But, some desert trips make it necessary, so I spend more time on cleanup when I get home. Unchecked BS is right, in so many ways. But, it's home, and we're used to the frivolous BS. The homebrew fuel tax is a joke. I don't know anyone who pays it. I'd bet the governator doesn't (or all of it, anyway). The only thing that isn't taxed here is labor, but they even get that in the end.

Anywho....
I live between Sequoia Park and Mt. Whitney. Beautiful country. Too bad it's in Kelliforneea. [did you know Sequoia is the only word in the English language using all 5 vowels, and only once each?]

[Mark Rinker]

Last time I checked, the man in charge out there was a Republican...how frustrating it must feel for all these conservative leaders, cleaning up all the messes left behind by tree-hugging liberals. ;)

Agreed on the gas cans - I had one and tossed it out of pure frustration. More gas was spilled on the ground as a result!!!

[convert2diesel]

Drill hole in the handle above the fuel level and throw out the nozzle. You can get the old style nozzle as a replacement at your local hardware store. Problem solved (would prefer to get old style container then the problem wouldn't exist in the first place).

Bill

[JohnC]

My kids and I call it the "California can" for obvious reasons. I've never seen anything like it anywhere outside of California.

Guess you're not from New York, either... :mad:

Good to know I can still get a "real" gas can somewhere...

[ronniejoe]

Last time I checked, the man in charge out there was a Republican...

At the risk of being called a stalker again...:rolleyes:

There's more to it than the governator (who's a RINO anyway)...there's that pesky thing called the state legislature that actually makes the laws. Seems that it's overrun with Democrats.

[Mark Rinker]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_In_Name_Only

"RINOs." "Liberals." "Tree-huggers." "Drive-by media." If nothing else, Ron - you keep me busy studying and understanding the labels used by some people, to classify 'other' people.

Keep 'em coming! :)

[ronniejoe]

Well, let's see. It seems that you've classified or labled me several times in the recent past. (Jackass comes to mind, although I still don't know if my horses resemble you or not.);)

You also made the comment that you never thought that you "had to have all the answers". Yet, to those of us who are curious and do want to know things about the world around us, you whine and say that I "think I'm smarter than everyone else". That may very well be, I don't know, but I can certainly say that I have studied many subjects in very great detail...much greater detail than you by your own admission. You seem to be willing to let someone else tell you what to think. I don't trust other people to tell me what to think. Plus, I have always, since I was a very little kid, wanted to know why things are the way they are. What makes that work? Why did you do that in that way? Since God has blessed me with the intellect to understand things, I use it to further my knowledge in many ways.

When I suggest that you should educate yourself -- this is nothing more than a suggestion for you to read and use the intelligence that God gave you -- you accuse me of calling you dumb or that I think I'm smarter than you. I have never, ever, said anything like that. Maybe you're too lazy to do it, but I've never said you were dumb or that I was smarter than you. In fact, that's the most frustrating part of dealing with you. You seem like a smart guy. I cannot understand why you don't have a thirst for discovery and willingness to learn.

From what I can see, you are a rather insecure individual who has some kind of a burr under your saddle regarding me. That's your problem, not mine. I do my best to live at peace with everyone. Your response is what determines the outcome.

When I challenge your beliefs or ask you to defend your statements, you resort with personal attacks. You can't seem to debate ideas on the merits. That seems to be pretty typical within a certain group of people...oops, I did it again.

[Mark Rinker]

You are right again, Ron. I think I have you figured out, and I have labeled you.

As for intelligence and such - I always tested pretty high. For the longest time I saw my world as black and white, good and bad, right and wrong.

Then I came to the conclusion that life wasn't that simple, or easily defined. That it was all shades of grey. That is why I think extreme right wing, left wing, ANY kind of extremist viewpoint is usually going to be dead wrong. Todays politics seem like two wrong extremes, pulling on each other - with the only hope being the middle.

So, Ron - if you want one end of that rope - I'll be glad to take the other end, simply to make sure we find center - where the answer most likely is.

Labels usually don't fit.

[JohnC]

I think I'm gonna barf. And it's not because I'm below deck...

[ronniejoe]

You don't know how many times that I've been told that I'm too black and white and that everything is shades of grey. You can get in line behind all those others.:rolleyes:

Here's an example: I used to work for Allison Gas Turbine Division of GMC (now Rolls-Royce Corporation). Through my poking around and generally curious approach to things, I uncovered four separate issues that were in direct violation of FAA rules and company policy over a two year period. Parts, for machines that fly straight up, were being sold out the door that did not meet drawing requirements and did not have appropriate Material Review Board disposition to see if they were useable. My analysis showed that they were flight safety risks. All four resulted in multimillion dollar field campaigns to purge the bad stock from the field. On two of the issues, my analyses were initially ignored and parts were sold, both as spares and in full engine assemblies.

Those later came back to bite the company badly. In one case, a weekend call came in during late summer or early fall 1997. A brand new Bell 407 with newly developed and released Allison Model 250-C47B engine was sitting on an oil rig (those dirty things that we need to keep our modern economy floorishing) in the Gulf of Mexico with a chip detector light. The debris on the detector when it was inspected was beyond the Operation and Maintenance Manual limits for serviceability. This meant that the ship couldn't leave the pad on the drill rig until the engine was replaced. Consequently, no supplies or personnel could be flown to or from the rig, because its only pad was occupied by a grounded helicopter. To remain in service, the oil rig crew had to ferry supplies by boat from a nearby rig with open pad. This went on for more than a week.

Allison had to ship a new, replacement engine down to the gulf. However, since the pad was small, there was no room for a hoist to lift the engine from the bay. To facilitate the exchange, the old engine had to be disassembled into modules while in the airframe and removed one module at a time. The new engine had to be disassembled into modules and installed in the airframe one module at a time. Needless to say, the company that owned the helicopter was not pleased with Allison.

I arrived at work one morning to find a box full of parts on my desk that included the three main power train gears from the engine gearbox. I immediately checked my files and cross referenced the serial numbers of the returned parts with those that I had on file from my earlier investiagation (dating back to February - March of 1997). Guess what... The parts on my desk from the AOG (aircraft on ground) incident matched with ones that I said shouldn't be sold in the first place. It's funny, they told me in March that I was looking too close and being too black and white. I needed to see things in shades of grey.

You know, Mark, there is absolute right and wrong based on an immutable standard. Most things are black or white, right or wrong. Those of us with the clarity of vision to see this are threatening to those who don't or won't see it. We cause too much introspection and examination of beliefs and most don't like what they see. Instead of fixing the belief system, most folks lash out at us. In most cases, seeing things in shades of grey stems from an unwillingness to take a stand for what's right resulting in a compromise of principles. The anger and personal attacks then flow from the latent guilt associated with that compromise.

In the world of politics, the tenets of liberalism and conservatism are mutually exclusive. They cannot both be right. I happen to know that conservatism is right as displayed by decades of failed liberal policies.

I can't wait to see what kind of names you call me over this.:cool: OBTW, you don't have me figured out. You have no idea. (Again, more personal attacks.):eek:

[Mark Rinker]

Ron, you're just too damn smart for me. I cry 'uncle'.

Lets do everyone on the board a huge favor, and agree to never post in response to each other, okay?

No more names. You are right. You were always right.

[ronniejoe]

It's funny... You're always trying to impose limits on what I can say or when I can say it. That's also typcial of that group. Oops! I've agreed to some of your nonesense before (wait at least thirty minutes before responding, etc.), but didn't get any reciprocity. Besides, you've made these kinds of statements before then they only last a week or less, so why bother?

Once again, personal attacks.

[Mark Rinker]

Ron, there is no reason to belabor the fact that we don't agree on much.

I didn't sign on today to wrestle with you - again. I didn't impose anything on you. I am asking you - again - to refrain from responding to any of my posts. I will do the same.

You know you are twisting the meaning of my request for 30 minutes before responding. This is simply due to how I choose to edit my comments - most of the time in an attempt to avoid conflict. In the past, you pasted from my posts in progress, before they were even finished. That is what I characterized as 'stalking'.

Enough. This is beyond silly. Personal attacks? You have insulted my business model, my beliefs, my intelligence, etc...

You choose to not see, or appreciate any position other than your own. You may be intelligent, but that approach to people, politics, etc. is not smart.

[JohnC]

Should have just pushed the chopper off the pad and moved on...

;)

[ronniejoe]

You know you are twisting the meaning of my request for 30 minutes before responding. This is simply due to how I choose to edit my comments - most of the time in an attempt to avoid conflict. In the past, you pasted from my posts in progress, before they were even finished. That is what I characterized as 'stalking'.

No, I'm not. You posted, I got an e-mail notification because I subscribed to the thread, then I responded. Since your little temper fit, I've made sure to wait until you're done editing...sometimes I've had to wait over an hour for you to edit all of your insults out of the post before I responded. No twisting of meaning here.


Enough. This is beyond silly. Personal attacks? You have insulted my business model, my beliefs, my intelligence, etc...

Another falsehood. I've never insulted you or your business model. I've not insulted your beliefs either. I've never insulted your intelligence. The insults come from your direction. All I've done is challenge your beliefs and ask you to defend them. You can't, so you throw a temper fit. In fact, I've often complimented your intelligence (did so in the last post) and I've said many times that I wish I had your business savy. What I have said is that you are living the American Dream, running your own business that you built out of something you love to do, then whine about difficulties in the course of running that business.

Yes, it is beyond silly. It sure appears that you think you have to have the last word. You throw insults out, say we need to move on and I shouldn't respond.

Another attempt to limit what I can say and when I can say it.

I don't know what put the burr under your saddle. I've tried numerous times to reconcile with you, but you will have none of it. I stand ready, at this moment, to reconcile. I won't be bullied into submission, though. If you are ready to grow up, I am willing to reconcile and be friends and agree to disagree. I don't really think you will be willing, however.

[Mark Rinker]

No last words necessary - but to not respond would be continuing. I'm fine with agreeing to disagree on our views. Onward.

[ronniejoe]

No last words necessary - but to not respond would be continuing.

:confused: ????????????????????:confused: :rolleyes:

[ronniejoe]

Should have just pushed the chopper off the pad and moved on...

;)

I guess Airlogistics was not ready to just throw $3,000,000.00 worth of brand new aircraft into the Gulf.;):)

[JohnC]

(Almost) seriously, if you add up all the costs including the alternate supply route, R&R on the engine, etc, it might have come close. Then, if Allison was footing the bill, well, strip out the avionics and over she goes!

;)

[Mark Rinker]

:confused: ????????????????????:confused: :rolleyes:

>>> I am willing to reconcile and be friends and agree to disagree. I don't really think you will be willing, however. >>>

I was agreeing with you, Ron - by responding. Onward.

[More Power]

Not to change the subject here... :D

Has anyone noticed that the per barrel price has dropped about 20 bucks? There's a by-partisan bill in the house that a Dem/Repub coalition will try to bring to the floor immediately after the house break (don't they have a lot of those?) that's about a comprehensive energy plan to push for eventual energy independence - assuming enough constituents coax their reps to allow an up/down vote on it..... I like most of their plan.... Except the part about carbon sequestration and carbon taxes.... I still don't think the human-caused CO2 climate change "theory" is solid enough to push policy.

What's anyone think about T. Boone Pickens? Despite what his web site says, he is on the record (recent interviews) for supporting more drilling.

Has anyone seen a drop in diesel fuel prices lately?

Jim

[93GMCSierra]

Nope no drop in diesel for a very long time, though gas did go down by almost 20 cents per gallon.

[ronniejoe]

What's anyone think about T. Boone Pickens? Despite what his web site says, he is on the record (recent interviews) for supporting more drilling.

I think T. Boone's plan is full of, well, wind.:D He's a pretty smart business man who has invested in the technology that he's now pushing, hoping to make a "wind"fall profit.;) He's stuck his finger in the "wind" and thinks that public opinion is in favor of the alternative engery schemes, so he's looking to cash in. I don't think he believes for a minute that line he uses that "we can't drill our way out of this crisis". He thinks it will score with the public, so he uses it. My cynical, somewhat informed opinion.


Has anyone seen a drop in diesel fuel prices lately?

Jim

Yes! Diesel at the local Murphy USA (Wal-Mart) went from $4.859 on Friday to $4.699 today. For those of you in Rio Linda;), or elsewhere, that's $0.16/gal or 3.3% decrease in six days. Regular unleaded is now down to $3.639 from a high of $4.199 last month.

I never thought I'd be happy to see $3.639 for regular or $4.699 for Diesel...:eek:

[ronniejoe]

>>> I am willing to reconcile and be friends and agree to disagree. I don't really think you will be willing, however. >>>

I was agreeing with you, Ron - by responding. Onward.


"Drover, are we involved in the same conversation?":D (from Hank the Cowdog...)

Ever get the feeling that you've just entered the Twilight Zone?:eek:;)

[ronniejoe]

Remember all that nonesense from the Democrat Party...Drilling won't lower the price for ten years? Hmmmm... The mere mention of drilling by the president has sent oil prices into a free fall...in only a few days. Last time I checked that was significantly less than ten years.:p

[JohnC]

Pump up your tires, get a tune up and put on a sweater. Everything will be fine, and disco is making a comeback...

[a5150nut]

Pump up your tires, get a tune up and put on a sweater. Everything will be fine, and disco is making a comeback...
Oh goody, goody, goody. Now I can dig out my polyester shirts! But the buttons might not reach any more..........

[john8662]

Diesel fuel has only dropped roughly .05 here, while gasoline has dropped nearly .35 as of my checking.

Now, if them SOB oil companies would quit the splash n dash and exporting all our friggin Diesel to europe, maybe I could enjoy driving a Diesel again, instead of a POS gasser.

I can't wait until elections, already working on the "I Survived Bush II" bumper stickers...

J

[ronniejoe]

Leave your Bush bashing and delete the truth...:rolleyes: Thanks John!