P400 Turbo Diesel 4x4 Dually

[JetBoater]

I may or may not be your typical guy, who was looking for a good economical diesel truck to do some light towing and summer camping with.

I am 45 years old and have had my share of vehicles. I felt I had a reasonable amount of knowledge regarding the pro's/cons of Chev/Dodge/Ford... so I shopped the market for 3-4 months before making a decision.

I bought my first Chevy diesel truck late last year. It was a 1993 extended cab 6.5 TD 4x4 Dually. I bought it with known oil pressure issues...
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Vehicles/1993ChevyDiesel35004X4015.jpg

She drove nice but needed another motor... I figured I would do some homework...ordered the TD Volumes I and II, and started reading.

The motor was pulled and ended up being cracked in 6 places, so I bought a budget 599 rebuild for $2,200 off craigslist. It arrived with a chunk missing out of the block around the starter bolts... I claimed warranty and got my money back.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/65TD_LB.jpg

Here is where I started my journey... I bought a "crack-free" block, certified by a machine shop near Dallas TX. Hot tanked, honed, and frost plugs installed... for $250. I paid $250 to get it to Washington State... it arrived and had 3 stress cracks in the main webs. I got $250 back but was out the freight.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/IM000880.jpg

I bought 2 more blocks... they both had cracks !!! I lost money on one of them.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/599BlockWebcrack013.jpg

The last block I purchased was OK's by my mechanic's machine shop and I committed a large sum of cash to build it. After the boring, decking, align-honing with a stud girdle, etc... I inspect it prior to assembly and saw a fatal crack in the second web!!! $1000 in machining instantly disappears into thin air... I had another $3000 committed to this in parts (rebuilding the heads, pistons, regrinding cam, crank, rods, etc...) Ouch!!

My mechanic buddy is having this block repaired using inserts which are machined into the fractures of the block. I'll share photos after it has been done. Apparently they have been repairing cracked blocks for years... without issues. If it works, I have 2 more to fix.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/BlockFeb9004.jpg


Long story short... I was ready to buy a brand new long block directly from Franklin Ohio for the tune of $6,090. I did this through a gentleman by the name of Rod Townsend and a company called WW Williams. Kennedy and Peninsular also offer this long block.

The powerplant is the redesigned 6.5 Optimizer and carries the casting number P400. It was installed after I engineered an oil pan to fit my rig. This engine was designed for Hummers which now carry payloads up to 15,000 lbs. It includes a forged crank and cast iron girdle for added strength.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/EngineOilPanInstalled020.jpg

In conclusion... I have spent a small fortune seeing this project through to completion... I do have a great truck, for 1/4 of what a new one costs.
Oh... and my wife still loves me ;)

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/1993ChevyDiesel35004X4003.jpg

[a5150nut]

Nice truck! And a very nice presentation of your project. Enjoy your toy.

[rodburner]

nice truck:)

[Robyn]

So sorry you had to go through such a tortureous path to get a usable engine for your rig.

So many folks including good mechanics can be fooled by the 6.5 into thinking its crack free.

Many shops simply dont know where to look and or how to easily find the cracks.

Buying a 6.5 off the internet is a very sketchy proposition at best and unless the seller knows a lot about them he/she can be selling a door stop and not realize it.

As you have found out some folks are honest and some are not.

The freight is always a killer though on stuff that heavy.

A few years back I bought two 6.2 blocks off ebay and had them shipped.
Both were crack free and in very good condition. (Lucky)

Glad you got your ride all squared away and going.

I love the mid 90's body style trucks.

I own a 95 Dually crewcab with the 6.5 TD

Have fun and enjoy the beast :D

Best

Robyn

[winemaker]

I had my truck in the same shop as your truck a couple months ago and JR told me of your woes. I was going to stop in and see the new engine but I forgot all about it. Hope all is well now. I'll keep my eye out for you locally. I live in Surrey and work in N Delta. Happy trucking.
Brett

[JetBoater]

a5150nut, rodburner, thanks for the comments.

Robyn... the knowledge and experience you bring to the diesel page is a wonderful thing! Your comments on a previous thread about the oil pan fabrication were appreciated! I saw your latest truck... its a sweet ride. i think of these trucks as Old School with attitude!

I am new to diesels, but have wrenched since I could pick them up. After studying the issue of cracks.. I believe the older 6.5's run fine with them. At least all my motors ran fine.. but died of other causes.

I was going to write a blurb on the whole business of buying a long block off the internet. I came across some very shady companies.. who claim NEW blocks, but charge for the core. I thought I would need a lawyers advise before pen'ing the names onto paper. People should be aware of companies selling Chinese blocks with names similar to optimizer... and other scammers ready to sell you something supposedly dyno-tested for 1 hour, when they probably don't even have a dyno. I could ramble on for an hour about this... it bugs me. I am very happy to have purchased the strongest 6.5 currently offered.

Brett, I saw your rig in the shop too... I hope its rolling better with the new rear end, brakes, and bushing kits. PM me if you ever want to chat.

Cheers to driving a diesel!

[JetBoater]

A picture of me and someone else... you can probably figure out who I am.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/MeFrankie.jpg

[d.h.]

Nice Truck! I to just went through new engine blues.I bought a peninsular 18:1.They have good reputation.Just had reflashed computer installed yesterday. Hooked on to my fifth wheel today for maiden pull this weekend.Good luck!!!:D

[JetBoater]

Have a great long weekend d.h.!
I regret that I did not do the 18:1 which was a standing option I had turned down. It will definately add life to your power plant!
Cheers!

[rustyk]

I also got the Penisnsular 18:1, hi-pop injectors and a new IP (and the Phazer gear drive). Fuel economy is up from 9.25 mpg to around 11 mpg, and there's POWER there under the bed (diesel pusher motorhome :D). And that's not "truck bed", it's a queen-sized bed :).

[a5150nut]

and there's POWER there under the bed (diesel pusher motorhome :D). And that's not "truck bed", it's a queen-sized bed :).

But you have to make your bed, I can just hose mine out! :rolleyes:

[JetBoater]

I just asked my supplier from WW Williams (Rod Townsend), what the compression ratio was in my P400. He advised it is 20.2:1

I also asked for the recommended maximum boost... he replied 28 psi at 2000 rpm provides max torque.

Is the 28 psi at sea level?

I am running 12 lbs of boost MAX at full pedal. Do I dare run a larger turbo and increase to these levels?

I am running the strongest commercial 6.5 available.... all comments welcomed.

Note: I will be adding an intercooler in next month or so.... and will dial in the max boost at that time. It should be broken in by then. ;)

:rolleyes:

[DmaxMaverick]

28 PSI is a bit unbelievable, especially if it is a 20.2:1 engine. And, not knowing what turbo is in service, is well out of the efficiency range of most of them.

28 PSIA is 13.3 PSIG at sea level. Perhaps that's what he meant?

[JetBoater]

DmaxMaverick... I agree and have asked Rod for clarification.

I guess I am questioning why he would he give me a number that I would need to subtract the 14.7 psi of atmospheric pressure (101 kPa)... :confused:

I'll comment further after his reply. Thanks!

[JetBoater]

Rod just sent a reply and asked me to retract the 28 psi. An engineer at the Franklin Ohio plant will be providing more info after he looks into it. ;)

[DmaxMaverick]

Oh, great. Now it really gets confusing. You know those engineer types:D

If you post the actual compression ratio and turbo you are using (as well as any other details you have), I'm sure we can give you a straight answer. The use/lack of a charge air cooler can play a large part, as well. Other than that, you'll have to run some trial and error testing (which you should do, anyway). Once you get some hard numbers, getting it dialed in is a matter of course. Fueling, temperature and pressure have to meet on common ground to get your efficiency target.

[JetBoater]

I am currently running a GM-4 turbo... I have a GM-8 which I will be sending to the local shop for a RE&RE at a cost of $700. This will be installed in June.

I will be installing an intercooler in June, similar to the $400 unit profiled in TDP. It is a 1 foot by 2 foot core with a diameter of 2.5 inches.

I tow a 4000 lb boat... with a 2000 lb camper in the summer.

CR is 20.2:1

Thanks for your input, it is appreciated.
Mike

[DmaxMaverick]

With that info, I wouldn't suggest any more boost than about 8-10 PSI before the intercooler and GM8, then a max of 12-14 PSI after. Any more (of either setup), and temps may become a problem. If you want more, you'll have to lower the C/R and improve your turbo. If you stay on the conservative side, you should have a very reliable powerplant with decent economy. It all depends on your goals and expectations.

[More Power]

I tow a 4000 lb boat... with a 2000 lb camper in the summer. CR is 20.2:1

Thanks for your input, it is appreciated.
Mike

With those loads, you're likely better off with 20.2:1, and you'll not have to make any glow system changes to improve startability during the winter months. ;)

Jim

[rustyk]

Based on info I collected before going with the Peninsular/AMG engine, the 20.2:1 setup should be limited to no more than 8 psi, and at that boost, a charge air cooler doesn't help much. My engine spools up to 15 psi effortlessly, but that's where my self-set, arbitrary yellow line is...

I was doing the numbers, however, based on shoving my 16K motorhome around.

[Robyn]

I can see my boost easily run up to 11-12 under hard load. I dont worry much about the boost level but instead watch the EGT carefully.
(My engine is a stock compression unit)

Once the temp starts aproaching the lower end of the crispy zone I get my boot off the loud pedal and allow things to cool or at least keep the temp in a safe area.

Even at 10-12 psi the aftercooler is only marginally effective.

The air to air coolers come into their own when you get to 15- 20 on up.

For lower boost pressures I would really be inclined to recommend a water alky injection setup.

This adds power, keeps the little monster cool and also steams out the combustion chambers and they will stay far cleaner.

Best

Robyn

[JetBoater]

Thanks everyone.

The P400 was designed to run with a charge-air cooler on the HMMWV's... so it will be interesting to hear what the Franklin engineer recommends.

Many people have told me an intercooler will provided a noticeable difference in power.... that is why I plan to install this. I will also look into your water/alcohol injection suggestion Robyn.

;)

[ronniejoe]

Increasing air flow through the 6.5 lowers EGT. I ran my stock compression engine at as high a boost levels as the GM-4 would go...18-19 psi below 2300 rpm tapering off to 11 psi at 3600 rpm...for thousands of miles. The GM-X series turbos are simply too restrictive on the exhaust side if you want to do anything besides daily driving.

With my 18:1 and my new turbo, I peak at 23-24 psi (for now) at 3600 rpm when loaded. Normal acceleration sees around 15 psi on a daily basis.

Stay at 8 psi if you want to, but you'll melt your engine down if you try to work it.

[More Power]

Thanks everyone.

The P400 was designed to run with a charge-air cooler on the HMMWV's... so it will be interesting to hear what the Franklin engineer recommends.

Many people have told me an intercooler will provided a noticeable difference in power.... that is why I plan to install this. I will also look into your water/alcohol injection suggestion Robyn.

;)

Having an intercooler will lower boosted air temps by 100-200 degrees F, depending on lots of factors. A water/alc injection system can as well. However, adding both won't double the cooling effectiveness. It's all about delta T. Water/alc won't make a significant difference when combined with an intercooler - for most 6.5 owners. I tried water/alc on an intercooled 6.5, and found adding water didn't make a measurable difference in EGT (constant load on a 6% grade, then switched water on/off).

An IC is the best solution. It's always there; no space is lost to a water/alc tank & plumbing, no need to replenish a consumable supply, and no worry about winter freeze-ups.

Competition diesels are benefited from having both, mostly due to big boost numbers.

Jim

[rustyk]

Sounds logical about the IC; in my case, although one would continue the concept of "logical", there's nowhere to mount one...

[JeepSJ]

Sounds logical about the IC; in my case, although one would continue the concept of "logical", there's nowhere to mount one...

Who says it needs to be in the engine compartment? Think outside the box, with a couple electric fans. I would imagine there is all kinds of room under that thing.

[JetBoater]

Here is the Franklin engineer's answer.

Michael
Here is what they came back with on the Boost,

(max boost is 195 kpa or 28 psi)

Rod Townsend
Defense Business Development
W W WilliamsI would obviously require a bigger turbo such as a Holset HX35 to move into this range. I have no plans to go there.

I did ask for a "recommended boost level" based on my 20.2:1. I'm still waiting for that answer.

The motor pulls very nice over 2400 rpm... so I'll likely stick with the initial plan of rebuilding a GM-4 or GM-8 and running an intercooler.
;)

[JetBoater]

Rod did get back to me with more information on boost… he asked me not to post it as it may be misinterpreted.

Long story short, the more power… the more cooling capacity required. The cooling system on the 6.5 is designed for 195 hp /440 ft lbs of torque. This is inadequate for forcing further horsepower out of the engine.

He also advised that when moving up from 150hp to 190hp on the old AC1 to ECV…. a 30% larger Rad was required to cool the extra 40 horsepower.

Cooling is the key on this engine... so here is the plan:
An intercooler, 4” exhaust, less restrictive turbo, along with my high capacity cooling system in mint condition will assist longevity while “pushing” the engine hard. Oh… my extra oil capacity (15.5 liters/4 gallons) should help a bit too.


I do tow up a few mountain passes… twice a year, not a huge issue for me.
I’ll provide updates on separate threads as things progress.

[ronniejoe]

I just towed my 32' travel trailer to Indy and back. It is 95F here today with high humidity. I never saw the coolant temperature exceed 195F and never saw EGT over 1050F pre-turbo. I am making considerably more than 225 HP at the wheels. The turbocharger is the key...

[JeepSJ]

I just towed my 32' travel trailer to Indy and back. It is 95F here today with high humidity. I never saw the coolant temperature exceed 195F and never saw EGT over 1050F pre-turbo. I am making considerably more than 225 HP at the wheels. The turbocharger is the key...

OK RJ...you have left us in suspense for long enough. What turbo are you using?

Also, the links in your sig are dead.

[JetBoater]

Ron, if the turbo charger is the key, I am all ears... keep in mind that I don't have the 18:1 you do, and won't be running your 18-24 lbs of boost.

I just ordered an intake adapter from Peninsular for my upcoming intercooler project. The turbo is on my list of upgrades so your thoughts and recommendations are appreciated.

[JetBoater]

Now that the truck is dialed in and I finally am happy with it... boating season is ending for the year. Us salmon fishermen now switch from the larger Fraser river, to the smaller rivers in southern BC.

Here's a few shots of the truck ready for the fall fishing/camping season.

I have 3 foot wide by 5 foot long trailer bar for towing the jet boat behind the camper. It doubles as a step (not shown in picts).

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/Truck%20and%20Camper/IMG_1501.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/Truck%20and%20Camper/IMG_1502.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/Truck%20and%20Camper/IMG_1507.jpg

[SoTxPollock]

Interesting to me that ronniejoe's temps run the same as my duramax. Coolant and transmission oil usually run 100 degrees above the outside temperature. Works for me. Of course I haven't been in any desert locations where the temp. may be 125 or so, but when it hit 112 in Texas last summer, my temps were running about 210. Yeah, I know thats hot, but the stock cooling systems can't transfer anymore heat than that at least in my case.
So far no problems, nearing 130K miles. Some of my buddies have learned the hard way not to change out the grill to one of those fancey closed looking ones, they turned out to be an overheating problem, put the stock grill back on and problem went away.

[berg]

old post but interesting.....

did you ever get pics of the inserts from your first post?

"My mechanic buddy is having this block repaired using inserts which are machined into the fractures of the block. I'll share photos after it has been done. Apparently they have been repairing cracked blocks for years... without issues. If it works, I have 2 more to fix.

[JetBoater]

My pics can be found in a separate post... see this link:
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=32921

I ended up selling the block along with all the parts some time ago. These fixes keep the cracks from getting worse. They also add a measure of strength depending on the lock or stitch.

I am a fan of these since they essentially save the blocks from the scrap yard.

;) Jetboater