Ticking Problem Found Need Advise

[83Blzr62]

I have had a ticking sound since I rebuilt my engine about a year and a half ago. I have not driven very much because of the sound. I finally pulled the heads, thinking that there was vavle to piston interference. Come to find out, there is about .025" of piston to bore clearence. I checked this with a pin gauge and the piston pressed to one side of the cylinder. Is that the correct way to do it? The machine shop is closed for the weekend, so I cannot call them. When they machined it they insisted that they needed the pistons, because they machine the block to the pistons. Obviously that did not happen. But because they said they machined the block to the pistons I did not check that when I originally assembled it. Do you think the machine shop has some responsibility for the probglem or is it just my fault for not checking? I think now I need to re-hone my cylinders and get new pistons. Should I have to pay for all of it?

Thanks,
Kyle

[More Power]

You should be able to see hone cross-hatching all the way to the top of the bores in a low time engine. If so, I'd show this to the machine shop. If they run an honest shop, they'll work with you on it.

Jim

[Robyn]

The correct way to check clearance is to mic the cylinder then mic the piston across the skirts at the mid point on the skirt.

These pistons can run happily at about .004" (this is on the loose side of the spec)

The spec is all metric but this is the english conversion.

If the pistons were set at .025 (Twenty five thousands) that engine would not "tick" it would be banging and hammering like a bucket full of rocks.

With that much slop I am not sure the rings would be sealing well either.

The only good way to tell the clearance is to mic things (Bore and the slug)

Best

Robyn

[83Blzr62]

There is cross hatch all the way to the top, but near the bottom of the bore there are wear marks at the top and bottom of the cylinder where the piston skirt rubbed. I will get pictures in a couple of days.

[rustyk]

You did well to park it - you may have piston slap with too much clearance. Piston slap is generally more than a "tick", however.

[JohnC]

Can you move the piston in the bore? Some pistons have the top land relieved, so the clearance between the piston and bore above the top ring would be deceiving. If the piston moves noticably in the bore, though, it's too loose.

Piston slap is generally a hollow knock, most noticable at light loads. With .025 clearance you may already have a cracked piston.

[john8662]

What size pistons? .020, .030, .040 ?

Your machine shop attempted to do the right thing, get the piston in hand and measure 1" from bottom of skirt and get measurement. Then add .004" and finish hone the cylinder to that size. .0035 - .005" clearance is fine.

You can only determine cylinder to bore clearance with the piston removed, by mic'ing the piston skirt area and then the ID of the bore, subtract piston size from bore size, and there ya go.

The alternative, is to take the book stock dimension and add the .020, etc. to that figure... Many times the piston mfg has specs of what the size was to do the math, they're closer for their pistons...

Darn, don't get me talking numbers like this, makes me wanna get out a yellow block of mine and get it running to drop in my pickup in the signature and get it in the 12's. But, next year (gotta wait till we get a responsible president in office).

J

[joe bleaux]

I sure hate to see politics creep in. :mad:


Joe



What size pistons? .020, .030, .040 ?

Your machine shop attempted to do the right thing, get the piston in hand and measure 1" from bottom of skirt and get measurement. Then add .004" and finish hone the cylinder to that size. .0035 - .005" clearance is fine.

You can only determine cylinder to bore clearance with the piston removed, by mic'ing the piston skirt area and then the ID of the bore, subtract piston size from bore size, and there ya go.

The alternative, is to take the book stock dimension and add the .020, etc. to that figure... Many times the piston mfg has specs of what the size was to do the math, they're closer for their pistons...

Darn, don't get me talking numbers like this, makes me wanna get out a yellow block of mine and get it running to drop in my pickup in the signature and get it in the 12's. But, next year (gotta wait till we get a responsible president in office).

J

[ronniejoe]

But, next year (gotta wait till we get a responsible president in office).

J

What are you waiting for? We have a responsible president in office...

[Robyn]

No politics please. :eek:

We have been down that road before and once politics enters the scene the pistons dont fit right, the ring end gap is too tight and the head gaskets dont seal. :D :D :D

Just a little torque

Robyn

[john8662]

Sorry, can't help it I'm so incredibly bitter about the situation we're in that I can't really even think about Diesels, cause I can't even drive one (except every other weekend for a day).

I guess since I can't behave, I'll refrain from logging in too...

[cakeordeath?]

I'm so incredibly bitter about the situation we're in that I can't really even think about Diesels

I know that feeling exactly. Sometimes I have to stay off line for a bit. However, no matter how things turn out in November, change is coming for everybody, so I'm bit more enthusiasic these days, hence my visits to forums to gather info I need for my future projects. :)

[Robyn]

John
You dont have to stop loging in.
The feelings you have are shared by most of us. Frustration is a key player in all our lives today.

I really dont think its a case of placing the blame on one person.

This issues facing us all are the results of a huge number of things that are being orchestrated by a lot of people and many of them are not even in this country.

The global economy is such a dynamic thing that to place blame on a few just does not even come close to solving the issues.

Right now we need to get back to fixing diesels.

If we lose sight of the objective and the reason we are here then we take another hit.



We are still running all of our diesels here. Its cheaper than running the gassers we own by a bunch simply because of the mileage they get compared to the gassers and to buy a cheap running rig is too costly.

The bottom line is still a tough nit to chew.


Sorry to highjack the thread
Back to fixing the piston clearance

Robyn

[ronniejoe]

I really dont think its a case of placing the blame on one person.

This issues facing us all are the results of a huge number of things that are being orchestrated by a lot of people and many of them are not even in this country.

Last political comment in this thread from me. I promise.

You are correct that one person doesn't deserve the blame, especially President Bush. The blame goes to a lot of folks... Namely, every Democrat in the country along with those Republicans in Name Only (RINO) who accept all the liberal premises without challenge. We have oil available in this country in Alaska and off the coast in the continental shelf. The tree huggers and their Democrat party allies and willing accomplices in the Drive By Media won't let us drill to get it. They won't let us build refineries. Your vote matters. Open your eyes and quit voting Democrat just because your Daddy did and think for yourselves.

The cult of environmentalism has completely hi-jacked this country and is putting our security at risk. We (mankind) are not causing the global temperature to increase. That's an Algore hoax to gain more control over individuals with bigger government. We can extract oil from the ground in responsible ways that will maintain good stewardship of the environment. Futhermore, this idea that we are about out is ludicrous. New discoveries occur everyday. There is no end in sight to our supply of oil. If you understood where it came from, you would know this is the truth.

I, personally, worked on a DOE (Department of Energy) project in 1990 that was to develop "an alternative" to our current automotive energy uses. It was involving a Proton Exchange Membrane fuel cell, or electrochemical engine. It used liquid Methanol to chemically generate electricity. It was gonna completely replace the internal combustion engine in ten years... Well, it isn't here yet and I don't even know if it is still being pursued. The fact of the matter is this: There are no viable alternative technologies out there that can replace internal combustion engines. There won't be in my lifetime. It isn't because no one is working on it or because the oil companies are conspiring to stop it. The DOE has poored millions of dollars into alternative technology research over the last 20+ years. It's because the internal combustion engine is a very good, very efficient, tough to beat technology that out performs any proposed alternative, now and for many, many years to come.

You are being lied to by the Hate America media in this country.

That's plain talk that is straight to the truth. You can bend it, spin it and lie about it all you want...doesn't change the truth.:cool:

[Robyn]

Well siad Ron

Unfortunately not everyone shares our feelings about how things work in this world.

As a child I walked my own path and folks complained that I was a non conformist. Today at 56 I still walk my own path and the same group call me a radical and a non conformist. I dont plan on any changes anytime soon :D

I prefer to call myself a "realist"

I wont stretch so far as to blame the dems totally. A lot of the issues we face are from abroad too.
Our good friends to the North our in the same pickle we are and they have their own folks running the show.

The global economy is being ochestrated by a group of wealthy investors that do not have a free world in mind as they pull the strings.

Conspiracy?? not sure,but it is deliberate and calculated.

No matter who takes office in January the outcome is not going to change much IMHO.

One thing for sure is we all are in this quicksand together and we are
all going to sink at some point unless there are some very serious changes made and soon. :eek:

I'm not holding my breath. :confused:

OHH BTW if we want to have any more posts on this topic, lets take it over to the members forum under the high cost of fuel and stop highjacking this thread.

The issue of piston clearance has fallen far behind here.

Robyn

[83Blzr62]

Ok, I have an extra piston I measured and found that they are about .020" smaller at the top. I am still going to pull the engine and check everything.

I could move the piston around a little bit in the cylinder, but I temporarily put the head back on so I could pull the engine. It should be out in the next few hours. I don't have an engine hoist so I am waiting for my dad to come drive the fork lift while I guide out the engine.

So, if I can rule out piston slap what else should I check?

I will replace the heads with new, recheck rod and main bearing clearence, and probably even put some clay in the cylinder to check valve clearence.

Is that it?

Thanks,
Kyle

[ronniejoe]

I wouldn't rule out a collapsed lifter...

[83Blzr62]

I already replaced the lifters once, and the same sound existed in the same place. All the lifters I did take out were still pumped up also. Another reason I do not think it is a lifter is because when it is cold you cannot hear it. It only makes the sound when it is warm and it seems to get louder if I rev it up and then let it idle.

I also got the injectors tested and they all tested fine. The I moved them to different locations and the sound did not change at all.

[83Blzr62]

Here are the picture of the cylinder wall wear. The back cylinder looks better than the front one. Is this normal for an engine with about 3500 miles on it?

Also, if I remove all the pistons should I get new piston rings and re-do the crosshatch in the cylinders?

Thanks,
Kyle

[Robyn]

I am beginning to get a bad feeling about this.

I reread the posts and looked at the signature at the bottom.

This engine has a GM 4 turbo, Right?? does it have the sheet metal shield on the back of the turbo (Hot side) housing??

Was the ticking sound a sharp rapping almost tinny sound??

Was it located on the RH side of the engine???.

Now if you reved the engine and let it spool down was it quiet during the spool down and then the ticking sound comes back at idle??

If this is the case I am afraid the culprit is the tin shield on the turbo.
These little devils will cause the injector closing "Clink" to echo like crazy and can be very disturbing.
This will sound very much like a lifter.

I first heard this on a 93 dually crewcab that was brand new. I passed on that truck and bought another instead that did not make the noise.

Depending on the pop setting and a few other variables this little noise can really be quite pronounced.

A gloved hand placed on the shield with the engine running will dampen out the noise completely.

I have had a couple shops in the area that dont do diesels much call me in as a consultant and this little noise has been on the list of complaints more than once.

The Dodge Cummins of certains years has also seen similar issues.

Since you are already into the little beast you might as well recheck stuff, but I really think your gremlin was a simple issue. Dont chase little stuff like crosshatch and so on. If the clearance on the pistons is good and things otherwise seem fine, bolt it back together and get it going. If you had valve to piston clearance issues the engine would have destructed right quick.

A lifter "tick" will run at 1/2 crank speed. The noise I am talking about is at piston speed as it is the injectors closing after the fueling cycle ends.

The spring loaded valve in the injector slams shut quick smartly and this noise will echo though the manifold, turbo and the shield just makes it quite noticeable.

The test is, during the spool down after you whizz the engine it will be quiet. The reason being is that the engine does not fuel during spool down and the injectors dont open.
The noise will resume just as the engine reaches idle and fuel is once again injected.

OH BTW, the fix is to bolt a piece of 1/4" thick lead bar about 3-4" long across the shield to deaden the resonance of the metal and stop the noise.

Let us know

Robyn

[83Blzr62]

Well I don't think that is the problem since I removed the turbo and ran it and I could still hear the sound. I guess I will just give everything a good inspection and see what I can find.

Thanks,
Kyle

[Robyn]

OK

With the turbo off it would certainly eliminate the issue for sure.

Only way is to look everything over real well and move on one step at a time.

Keep us posted.

Best

Robyn

[83Blzr62]

I found an old memeber from here, MaxPF, who said he would help me look it over. Hopefully, we can find something. Also I called up Peninsular and they said they have some of the new forged steel cranks from AMG on order. Maybe I could get one of them modify it for a 2 piece seal and be certain crank failure would never happen. But they cost around 800 dollars...

[83Blzr62]

Well, I tore it down the rest of the way today and found a larger problem. The second to last main web is cracked on the outer main bolt. Some pics of the crack are attached. I ground around it to be certain it was not a surface flaw and then used some nondestructive fualt check to make the crack easier to see.

I am thinking that the machine shop never magnafluxed it like they said, but I could never prove that. Or I was just really unlucky and it cracked when I was driving it.

Could the crack have caused the tick?


I have another block I can use that I think is crack free, but I don't know what I want to do. I might just throw this one back together and drive it until it dies, then throw in a 4bt. I just don't want to spend the money on another one to have this happen again.

-Kyle

[Mikeandwendy74]

Don't forget....faulty bearings can also make a noise travel and sound very much like a lifter ticking....

[Robyn]

So sorry to see that ugly little crack.

Seen many in my tenure with the 6.2/6.5 family and they all bring a tear to my eye.

The crack at this point is just that, a crack. The ticking noise is in no way caused by the crack.

Truth be known that crack was most likely there long before you got the block.

The way I check these blocks is to strip the caps off the mains, wipe down the webs in the area yours is cracked and then warm the area with a propane torch until the webs are very warm.
Any cracks will start oooozing oil within short order and a little black line will show up.

Some blocks will crack down from the corner of the register where the cap seats and others will do as yours has done.

There has been much speculation as to "WHY" this happens and to date nobody has come up with a real iron clad answer.

Some speculate that the block is twisting, others that the cranks is tweeking the block.
The possibility that these blocks were not cured well before machining is also a theory.
One thing for sure is that there is very little material in the area of the outer bolt and the stress generated by the bolt in the threads is enormous and this could contribute to the breakage.

The new AMG/GEP blocks are a different alloy and are supposed to be the answer (along with the new girdle)

The alloy used in these blocks may very well be the issue and the cracks are simply due to the material shrinking and expanding during normal duty cycles.

The issue is that for the most part this crack basically renders the block a door stop.

I have seen blocks with a single crack reused.
A local shop just built a 6.5 with a crack very much like the one you show in the pix.

The crack was drilled at its deepest point to stop its progression and a stud kit was "Red Loctited" into the outer bolt holes and then a stud girdle was installed.
The studs are not torqued in real tite but only good and snug with the red loctite.

Once the loctite has cured the caps were installed along with the stud girdle kit and the center bolts torqued to spec and the outer nuts tightened to a somewhat lighter torque using blue loctite to secure them from loosening.

This is about the only thing I would consider other than a crack free block.

A crack free block is the one answer that best lets one sleep well at night

I have looked at many "Gauranteed crack free" Blocks and done the torch trick only to find one or two little cracks emanating from the suspect areas.
The seller usually stands looking with a blank stare of disbelief as the cracks start oooozing oil.

If you have a good crack free block I would double check it with your Dye Check and if its good, use it instead.


The ticking noise is not related to the cracks, this I am sure of.

Valve train, piston slap ????????


Let us know

Robyn

[83Blzr62]

The machine shop was supposed to magnaflux it, but I doubt they did. Guessing from their magnaflux folly I am guessing that the ticking is their fault. I will try to repair the crack using lock'n stitch, recheck bearing clearences and put it back together. It will be a good experiment to see what happens. If it fails I will throw in a 4bt. If in a few thousand miles the crack has not grown I will consider trying to find the ticking sound. I think the sound is in the heads and has to do with the gear drive and the associated gear drive warning.

-Kyle