Guessing age of injectors? DIY replacement?

[MarkMorissette]

The history of my 97 6.5TD is a bit spotty. It currently has 200,000 Kilometers on it (120,000 or so miles) and runs like a top for the most part.

I know the previous owner babied it (genuine stanadyne additive, synthetic fluids, etc) but previous to that I don't know much. I did ask the previous owner (who only owned it for a little over a year) if had ever done the injectors and he said no.

I'm wondering about them now. Is there a way to guestimate the age of them based on the following observations?

- Cold starts produce decent clouds of white smoke which (based on my Class 8 experience) isn't uncommon. It clears up almost immediately after startup with no sign of any black smoke.

- No black smoke under acceleration

- No hesitation whatsoever

- No signs of power loss or odd smoke under hard (max pedal) acceleration.

- Getting about 13MPG city, 15 Hwy, 13 Towing a 34' travel trailer.

- Warm starts are quick and easy with no white/black smoke at all.

- I also use the genuine stanadyne blue.

We are setting off on a long cross country trip this coming summer and I'm in the process of getting everything into tiptop shape beforehand so it goes smoothly. Injectors are one of those things that's on my "Hmmm" list.

Assuming I decided to do them, is this a job that someone can tackle themselves assuming I have all the right tools? I've seen the injectors locally for pretty reasonable costs, but the labor quotes at the local diesel shops is scary.

Last but not least, what's everyones view on the aftermarket versus genuine AC Delco injectors?

Thanks!

[GMC Hauler]

Driver side is easy to do. Passenger side. You're best to remove the airbox, turbo, and passenger wheel and fenderwell. .

Consider replacing the glow plugs at this time. You're already there.

Go with the GM replacements. Others are questionable in quality.

You can do this yourself. Take half a day.

You need one special item, an injector socket. Someone on here used to manufacture and sell them. I think Bill Heath rents one out. Not sure if anyone else does this.

[MarkMorissette]

Driver side is easy to do. Passenger side. You're best to remove the airbox, turbo, and passenger wheel and fenderwell.

Ugh, did I mention how much I dread exhaust work? :-) The airbox is easy as it already has a cold air kit / K&N, so that's out of the way easilly. Is the turbo usually a snot to get off?

What's the reasoning behind the fenderwell and passenger wheel - just easier access? Is it optional, or almost necessary to gain reasonable access to the passenger side injectors?

As for the tool, I could probably beg or borrow one from somewhere local, but if anyone has the info on the person who used to rent it here please point me in that direction.

The glowplugs *were* done by the last owner and still seem to work well - I can get the truck started down to about -10c (about 15F) without it being plugged in, which given my knowledge of the 6.5TD's dreadfull cold starting ability seems to indicate to me that they're working satisfactory.

All that aside (much appreciated), what's everyones thoughts on whether or not the injectors need to be done to begin with? For all I know they *could* have been done once already - the big problem is I don't know.

[DmaxMaverick]

Wheel and liner removal is not required, but will make access easier. It's worth the trouble if you haven't done a dozen of these.

The injector socket is a deep 30mm with a relief cut for the return nipples, and a hex at the top (like spark plug sockets--handy sometimes). You can get the "special" socket from Napa, and sometimes, Autozone or Kragen (Schucks, etc.). It can be ordered online from several sources, and isn't too expensive. Or, make your own. If you plan on doing maintenance on your 6.5 for a long time, it would be a worthwhile tool to keep.

As far as the glow plugs go, as long as they aren't 9G's, you'll be fine. Replace them when they quit. If they are 9G's, replace them now.

[GMC Hauler]

Ugh, did I mention how much I dread exhaust work? :-) The airbox is easy as it already has a cold air kit / K&N, so that's out of the way easilly. Is the turbo usually a snot to get off? .

Not too bad. Take 20 minutes.



The glowplugs *were* done by the last owner and still seem to work well - I can get the truck started down to about -10c (about 15F) without it being plugged in, which given my knowledge of the 6.5TD's dreadfull cold starting ability seems to indicate to me that they're working satisfactory.


Do a resistance check with an ohmeter or a current check with an annmater on each glow plug before you start the job. If there is a bad glow plug, it would be good to know before you start so you can replace them.

Otherwise, that's all there is to know. Good luck.

[MarkMorissette]

Ok, turbo doesn't sound like as big of a deal as I thought then. I know that there's an exhaust leak somewhere shortly downstream of it to begin with, so that would be a good time to fix it as well at the same time.

My biggest concern about removing the turbo is breaking studs, especially in the exhaust manifold. Is this common, or (with a bit of oil ahead of time) they come off pretty easily?

[cheyenne1500]

just for some fyi...you dont have to remove the turbo to replace injectors. I did all 8 in about 2 hours. But you'll need a 3/8 rachet with a pivoting head, 3/8 to 1/2 drive adapter and a 32mm? (i cant remember the size) socket. Oh and a torque wrench with a pivot....i have a Snap-On rachet that pivots and locks in place. With this tool injectors are easy without turbo removal. I doubt you'll break and turbo studs...your trucks age is too "new" to have anything that seized.

[MarkMorissette]

What about Bosch reman injectors?

I found a diesel shop advertising on the local Kijiji page that has a full set of 8 injectors for the 6.5TD for $289. This is quite the difference from the $140 each (my wholsale cost ) for "Blue Streak" aftermarket injectors, and I've not got a price yet on genuine AC Delco's but I can't immagine it's going to be much cheaper - probably to the contrary, more expensive.

$300 for a set would make it a no brainer decision for me to do them regardless, versus $1000 for a set elsewhere.

I emailed him and I received this response:


These injectors are manufactured by Bosch for us. They are completely new, and use our bodies and nozzles. They are not a marine type injector as the injection pumps for on road vehicles don’t create enough pressure to get them to work properly. The popping pressure is higher on these injectors. Like any performance part, fuel mile will decrease and you are putting more fuel into the engine.

Mileage issues aside (I could probably end up with *better* milage with the higher fuel flow injectors so long as I drive gently, no?) this seems to be a great deal.

[DmaxMaverick]

Check out our Advertising Supporters (http://www.thedieselpage.com/vendors/main.htm). Many of them offer quality injectors and stand behind them. I think you'll be surprised at the prices. $140 each is just ridiculous, even Canadian (dealer price should still be less). Reman's are fine, as long as they are quality reman's. The email response you got is hogwash. The injectors do not determine the amount of fuel injected into the cylinders, among other misinformation in that response.

[MarkMorissette]

Check out our Advertising Supporters (http://www.thedieselpage.com/vendors/main.htm). Many of them offer quality injectors and stand behind them. I think you'll be surprised at the prices. $140 each is just ridiculous, even Canadian (dealer price should still be less).

Duly noted, thanks.

Anyone care to comment on their view if I need to actually replace them to begin with? Is there a "de-facto" test out there to indicate if they're in dire need of replacement or not?

I've read a few websites (selling injectors, of course) that speak of catastrophic engine failure should overdue or worn-out injectors not be replaced..any truth to that as well?

[Robyn]

The "DEFACTO TEST" is called the "POP" Test
The injector is coupled to a little pump device and test fluid (Non Flamable) is pumped into the injector and they measure the pressure where the injector lets go with a spray (POPS)
The spray pattern is also looked at as well as looking for any after dribbles
(Dribbles cause smoke and other undersirable effects)

Low pop and a poor pissing spray will cause poor smokey starts as well as poor power and mileage.

These same issues can lead to a toasted piston crown in a worst case scenario.

A 6.5 with good compression, good glow plugs and good injectors should bang off with little to no smoke even in cold temps.

My 94 Burb will pop off in 25F weather with hardly more than a twist on the starter. There might be a tiny puff of smoke just as it lights but no more.
Copious smoke (White) is unburned fuel due to poor injectors and or poor heat (Glow plugs)

Having good plugs even with poor injectors will still not produce good quick smoke free starts.

My 94 can sit for 3 hours or more in 50F after being run in and will start right off even without waiting for a glow cycle at all. Just turned the key to start and poof, running. :)

I cant say enough about good squirts (Injectors)

A very nice fine spray mist and a nice even cone of fuel is the ticket for good starts, power and mileage.

Stay away from the ebay sellers.
Lots of junk there.

Get a local shop thats reputable to rebuild yours and have them set the POP to the top of the spec and most off all make them as even as possible.
The closer they all are to the same the better as this keeps cylinder to cylinder timing ballanced.

Having one that pops at a lower pressure means that the timing will be early on that cylinder and if the next one pops at a higher pressure then it will be later.
This sort of stuff can cause harmonics in the crank and block that you simply dont want or need.

Hope this helps

Robyn

[DmaxMaverick]

They can be tested, but it costs money. Minimum $5 each, in the States. If you don't know how many miles, or have at least 100K miles on a set, they should be replaced. I don't suggest bothering with testing on high milers. If one should be bad, they should all be replaced to keep the balance. If the injectors are original, they should be replaced.

Bad injector(s) can cause catastrophic engine damage. Excessive cylinder temperature and piston crown damage is likely to happen. Other issues associated with high cylinder temps will also occur, including head, precup, and valve damage and cracks.

[MarkMorissette]

Chances are I won't find anyone locally willing to test them for $5/each since diesel shops are far and few between up here and most won't touch a thing for less then an hours labour.

That aside, Robyn's post indicates to me that they are indeed toast as I do get considerable white smoke on cold starts.

Will running the truck as is (assuming no heavy loads or hot running/towing) for the next while be detrimental untill the new injectors arrive? Most of my current driving (untill out big trip this coming summer) is local city with short stints of highway - things don't heat up appreciably.

[DmaxMaverick]

I can't conclude what will happen. Only speculate on the possibilities.

At this point, you won't likely have a problem running it for a little while, with a conservative driving habit. There are no guarantees, though. If something bad were to happen, it will likely happen w/o any more warning than you have already. I've ran mine, under worse conditions for longer, with no further problems. Others weren't so lucky. It's your call.

[Robyn]

Best deal then is to seek one of the vendors here at TDP and get a fresh set of squirts.

Locally we have a couple shops that will test a whole set for very little and I always buy my parts from them so it does work both ways.

Just stuff in a fesh set along with some good Glow plugs and you should see a big improvement.
You don't have to rip everything off the RH side just unbolt the turbo and get it out of the way along with the little heat shield and you can then access the injectors.
The little return lines can be had in a nice kit from DEPACO. Comes with all the hoses, clamps and end caps for the back two.
The kit comes with new copper gaskets for the injectors.

About $25 USD the last time I got one (year ago)

I concur with Maverick, one can never know how things will turn out but my personal opinion is that just town hops under light load is not likely to be a worry.
The issues usually arive when the engine is placed under severe load and then the bad injectors can cause a hot spot resulting in a burnt piston crown.

Best

Robyn

[MarkMorissette]

I concur with Maverick, one can never know how things will turn out but my personal opinion is that just town hops under light load is not likely to be a worry.
The issues usually arive when the engine is placed under severe load and then the bad injectors can cause a hot spot resulting in a burnt piston crown.

Ok, that makes me feel a bit better for sure, then. Thinking back to my first service issue with this truck when I bought it (bad harmonic balancer) that was a "stop now, or else!" situation, whereas this can wait a bit longer.

This summer will most definitely be in the heavy load situation as we will be pulling a 34' trailer (as mentioned) to the west coast and back - mountains, mountains, and more mountains.

I found DSG listed under the supporting advertisers section (http://www.dieselservices.com) listing a full set of injectors for $53 each ($424 for the set), but a rather high $85 for the install kit. They are convenient since they're located in Canada, but the price seems really high especially with the US/CDN dollar being at par now.

I see Kenedy Diesel (also on the forum advertisers page) lists the set for $320 and the install kit for $25 - much more reasonable. They also speak of export shipments, so I'll assume they're comfortable with shipping to Canada.

Anyone have any thoughts about any other US companies that would fit my needs with Canadian shipping requirements, and perhaps an even better price?

Thanks so much for the guidance and assistance so far everyone!