Amg P400 [Archive] - TheDieselPage.com Forums

JetBoater

03-29-2008, 11:11

Cost for the long block direct through Franklin Engine distributor is $6,090 plus freight. Crate is provided.

PM me if you require further contact information and I will be happy to assist.

Franklin engineers are working on a commercial oil pan which should fit 4x4 trucks. I will have more information this week.

You can view the issue of fitting this engine into a K3500 at these links: http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/P400andMountPosition018.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/P400andMountPosition005.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/P400andMountPosition006.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/P400andMountPosition004.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/P400andMountPosition002.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/P400andMountPosition003.jpg

Regards,
Mike

EWC

03-29-2008, 15:10

Mike , have you tried to put the old pan on the girdle ?

JetBoater

03-30-2008, 10:54

The stock oil pan will not fit the girdle. See link below.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/OilPan_65001.jpg

The girdle is completely flat and the forward portion of the old pan is contoured to fit the timing chain cover.

More Power

03-30-2008, 12:26

To bad they won't return a e mail.

They may not be as web oriented as some would like. I'd recommend calling (800) 942-0445. Peninsular has been pretty good about answering the phone during business hours.

Jim

JoeyD

03-30-2008, 13:51

I will give them a call.

JetBoater

03-31-2008, 17:58

The word is NO COMMERCIAL PAN is currently being engineered at the Franklin Ohio plant.... so I guess we are on our own.

Time to get started... Here are a few links showing the pan removal after I got the news... it was easy to remove it.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval001.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval002.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval003.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval004.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval005.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval006.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval008.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval009.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval011.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval012.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/P400PanRemoval013.jpg

Fabrication will take place after I blueprint what portions require removal. Then I will add capacity to the bottom. I drained 8 liters of oil out of this pan.

I will be dropping the long block into the truck before I section out the pan to ensure the girdle does not interfere with the frame.

All comments are welcomed.
Mike

More Power

03-31-2008, 21:58

The main caps are integral to the cast-iron girdle. Nice.....

Thanks for the photos!

Jim

Robyn

04-01-2008, 06:32

Well now
If that beautiful chunk of iron dont keep the bottom end together nothing will.

What a hercky addition to the 6.5 that makes.

Having all the bottom end tied together will certainly keep flexing of the block at bay.

Good luck on the rework of the oil pan.

Thanks for sharing all the wonderful pix of your new engine.

Best

Robyn

04-01-2008, 14:13

Shown here at TDP first last year on the members page, Introducing AM General's New 6.5L Turbodiesel. (http://www.thedieselpage.com/features/AMGsnew65.htm)

Good to see the inside of one. Keep us posted.

EWC

04-01-2008, 17:30

I'd like to see a picture of the intake/turbo . Looks like a van turbo setup .

simon

04-01-2008, 21:22

Nice pics, very nice girdle, but I noticed the outer mainbolts are still in the same lousy locations as on the stockblocks!

JetBoater

04-02-2008, 19:27

This will be going into a Chevy 4x4 K3500.
This is a Side Mounted Turbo model.

JetBoater

04-02-2008, 19:33

Here is a preliminary look at what the pan will look like. I will be using the old 6.5 pan, chopping 3 inches out of the upper portion where the girdle displaces it.

The pan rail is being fabricated on a CNC router and will be welded to the pan. The bottom end of the pan will be deepend and the oil pickup will be relocated accordingly.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/P400_6500H_OilPanModificationcopy.jpg

Mike

More Power

04-02-2008, 20:22

This photo should give you an idea what member Andrew Ashwill did to create an aluminum pan for his deep skirted 6.5 block.

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/data/500/medium/ashwillpan.jpg

JoeyD

04-06-2008, 12:47

Do you think this new motor is available through a GM dealer?

JetBoater

04-07-2008, 13:17

The p400 is still "Pre-production" and currently runs with hummer oil pans only. Since they have no immediate plans to make a commercial pan to fit trucks... it will be some time before you are able to purchase one from your local Goodwrench dealer.;)

JetBoater

04-08-2008, 20:09

Pan takes shape:
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/SteelPanFlange003.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/SteelPanFlange015.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/SteelPanFlange007.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/WeldedOilPan002.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/WeldedOilPan001.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/WeldedOilPan003.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/WeldedOilPan004.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/WeldedOilPan008.jpg

Glass beading, solvent bath, and powder coat happens tomorrow.
The pan flange was cut by Industrial Laser Cutting in Delta BC. The pan stretching and welding was performed by Bryan Taylor at Specialty Welding Services in Port Kells, BC.

Mike

1999GMC

04-08-2008, 22:08

That turned out sweet. If you don't mind me asking, how much is it going to cost for just the oil pan work?

JetBoater

04-09-2008, 07:34

Not cheap! If I had more time, I have welding buddies who would have fabricated the whole thing from scratch for nothing, but I needed to have this done professionally and quick.

Producing the Steel Flange: $100

Welding the cut down pan to this flange which included tapering the pan to the contours of the flange. Adding capacity to the pan which included cutting out the bottom and adding 3 inches in depth: Cost: $500 7-8 hours of time.

Powder coating is normally a $30 job, but I needed it rush and am at their mercy for color: $50

Expensive... Yes, but I will have approximately 2.5 gallons of oil capacity on a custom pan with no issues.

The oil pump pickup tube must be dropped 3" deeper into the pan as well. I'll be shopping at my local Mopac Auto Supply for an aftermarket unit later today.

Mike

Robyn

04-09-2008, 07:44

Been around the fabrication and performance Boat/Car/Truck stuff for years.
This is a very nice job and this whole package is going to be something to be proud of.

Well done and thank you for sharing all the wonderful pictures with us.

Best

Robyn

JetBoater

04-09-2008, 19:47

Thanks for the positive feedback Robyn. I don't mind paying good money to have a craftsman do the job right and in a timely fashion.

Here are a few powder coated pictures.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PowderCoatedPan007.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PowderCoatedPan006.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PowderCoatedPan004.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PowderCoatedPan001.jpg

The Moroso oil pickup is going in tomorrow. Hopefully I can provide some install shots after that.
Mike

Robyn

04-10-2008, 07:07

There is always a just reward for a job well done. :D:D:D

This setup when all installed should yield a very long lived power plant that will do just what it was meant to do.

Now if someone will produce a retrofit oil pan for the AMG engine I can see that it would be a seller. :)

It will be interesting to see what the interest is in using the new AMG/GEP engines in the trucks and Burbs.

Unfortunately there are so many owners that are unable to pony the $$$ for one of the new long block assemblies and will be stuck using the old eggshell blocks that were produced by GM :(

I do have a question here, does this new engine have the forged crank??

Now Its seems that the AMG engine as produced would drop right into the older trucks with the solid front axle, especially if they have been lifted some. Should not be any clearance issues there.

Gawd I love it when a plan comes together.

Best

Robyn

More Power

04-10-2008, 10:40

Nice work Mike! Say, it was good to talk to you in BC last Saturday... I saw you leave BD's with an arm load of 6.5 stuff.... :)

Jim

JetBoater

04-10-2008, 20:06

Robyn, This P400 long block incorporates a 1 piece girdle with the forged steel crank. This should contain the madness.

They tell me this long block was designed to take the extra weight of a fully dressed HMMWV. These Hummers now exceed 15,000 lbs due to the heavy armor plating installed to keep the guys from getting blown up. The little 6.5's were not holding up to the abuse of this extra payload.

Jim, It was really nice to meet you at BD's Dyno Day. The place was full of diesel testosterone!! Some Big Money rigs there too. Ya.. I got a full set of new guages and a "honkin big" downpipe... a 4" exhaust should finish it off!

The pan fit beautifully... it doesn't hang too low, and I will probably get a skid plate under it to finish it off.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/OilPanFinalFit020.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/OilPanFinalFit016.jpg

I'll drop more pictures after the pan goes on... and I'll try to get some better internal pics after I install the oil pickup tube tomorrow and button up the pan.

JetBoater

04-12-2008, 19:39

The oil pickup tube was installed and the pan was bolted on today.

Jim spotted this little thing on a previous picture... What is it? Oil spray nozzle or ? I took a picture before the pan went on:

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/WhatsThis.jpg

I am finished, the rest is up to my mechanic... should rumble by the end of next week.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/IMG_1050.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/IMG_1064.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/IMG_1061.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/IMG_1067.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/EngineReadyForInstall.jpg

Mike

More Power

04-12-2008, 22:55

If you haven't already done it, you might want to pick up some 10mm transmission bellhousing bolts. Your original engine used 3/8" SAE. Some of the bolt heads have studs on the head end that allow fastening things like fuel lines, starter heat shield, and ground straps, so I'd probably visit a local dealer for the OE bolts - asking for 1999+ model year bolts.

Thanks for the pics. The first pic does look like a piston oil squirter.... Was the end of the prong hollow?

Jim

john8662

04-14-2008, 07:15

Thanks for the awesome pics, I'm seeing some very different things internally in this engine.

Besides the structural changes to the bottom end with the block extension and forged crank there is still more.

Check out the connecting rods, they're different as well. They now have bolts on the caps instead of the studs and nuts (don't know if that's a plus there tho), and check out the now enlarged small end of the connecting rod on the wrist pin. It's much larger and the piston is modified with it.

I did have one question that I coudln't quite make out in the image. The front timing cover looks to no longer use the 4 small 10mm headed bolts that would normally tie into the oil pan (through the oil pan to the cover).

Are they simply not used any more?

rustyk

04-14-2008, 17:34

Great photos! If you're interested in selling the cast aluminum pan, let me know - I think I can fit it on my motorhome (assuming the bolt pattern's the same) - it looks like it has more capacity than the stock pan...

More Power

04-15-2008, 22:57

Rusty, That pan wouldn't work for you because of the girdle and how that girdle matches the angle of the aluminum front cover. However, Peninsular's marine pan would be a direct bolt-on, if it'll fit your MH. Peninsular's increased capacity marine 6.5 pan is similar in profile to the new AMG pan.

Jim

JetBoater

04-16-2008, 07:07

I did not see any bolts coming into the timing chain cover from the girdle john.

It appears they opted to use the standard timing chain cover, and bonded the bottom to the girdle with RTV sealant. I will take a closer look later today.

Good eyes! The casting and some parts have definitely been redesigned.
Mike

Robyn

04-16-2008, 07:20

John
The old 427 Ford medium riser , high riser, tunnel port and SOHC engines used the bolt through the cap design rather than the stud and nut design.

This is a much stronger setup with less likelyhood of a failed bolt.

Cost more to produce though as the cap has to have the little dowel rings to pilot it (or some method)

Many great ideas simply fall by the wayside in favor of cost savings.

Its great to see AMG/GEP using some of these very sound engineering principles.

Robyn

ronniejoe

04-17-2008, 18:29

They've added meat around the exhaust ports, too.

AKMark

04-17-2008, 19:07

Hmm.....With 197K on the clock, if my motor ever kicks the bucket, I may have to look at one of these instead of rebuilding. I've rebuilt two 6.2's with horrible results. (Both died due to crankshaft issues.)

1999GMC

04-18-2008, 17:43

Yeah. I think that is the route I would go. That's a nice looking motor.

CleviteKid

04-22-2008, 10:17

JetBoater

04-23-2008, 08:43

Your funny.
My "autowrecker" trained mechanic has already taken the shine off it...
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/EngineInstalled/IMG_1088.jpg

This is an expensive project, which I am probably going to redo at some point. The mechanic would be good for a re&re on a used motor... but lacks the skill/wisdom/finesse for this job. I asked him to use all new bolts... he reused the bolts off the old motor to attach all peripherals such as intake, exhaust manifolds, etc...
He did get new starter bolts which I specifically mentioned...

The undercarriage is disgustingly filthy, he wouldn't let me pressure wash it at his shop or clean it before the install. He was worried about making a mess on his floor. His floor is more filthy than most garage floors I have seen. Enough venting... he is what he is... a budget mechanic. My loss. My nice engine got installed in the wrong shop.

Here is the clearance on the pan after the install...
Underside view:
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/EngineInstalled/IMG_1102.jpg

SideView:
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/EngineInstalled/IMG_1101.jpg

FrontView:
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/EngineInstalled/IMG_1087.jpg

Tight Spot:
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/EngineInstalled/IMG_1109.jpg

Another day babysitting... the power steering and vacuum pumps, ac, pulleys, radiator, top of intake the manifold, duall thermostat housing and throttle cable bracket, and crank pulleys and front brackets need to go on.

The exhaust crossover, bottom bell housing shield, and starter will complete the backside.

Oh.. and I need to install a 5 foot length of pipe between exhaust down pipe and the muffler.

I will help him setup the TPS and any wiring he can't figure out.

We will then fire it up after we purge air from the fuel line.... at the rate he moves... this will likely be tomorrow.

Does anyone have any tips on initial startup? Assuming it he purges air from the top of the fuel filter canister, and the IP purges the air from Injector lines.

Mike

trbankii

04-23-2008, 19:03

OUCH!

I have to say that I'd go back over everything that was done. Anyone with that much obvious disregard for machinery isn't likely to have done anything close to a quality job - a real shame considering the parts you are working with...

CleviteKid

04-24-2008, 06:04

Does anyone have any tips on initial startup? Assuming it he purges air from the top of the fuel filter canister, and the IP purges the air from Injector lines.

Mike

My first IP pump replacement I cracked ALL 8 high pressure fuel injection lines at the injectors, cranked with the starter (15 seconds cranking, 2 minutes cool-off) until all 8 showed good fuel weepage (about 3 cranking sessions) and then tightened them all, and it started right up.

Next time, at The Diesel Depot, they just cracked TWO high pressure lines, cranked it (again 15 seconds of cranking and 2 minutes of cool-off) and at the end of the second cranking session it started to run on a couple of cylinders. Let it do that for another minute or two, and soon it was running on six. Tightened the two loose nuts on the two injectors, and in less than a minute is was running on all eight.

I like the second method better.

JetBoater

04-24-2008, 07:51

Thanks for the advise on IP lines CleviteKid.

I asked the mechanic if he had cleaned all the IP lines before he installed them, he said yes. The trouble is, he doesn't know what clean means.

I think cracking all 8 lines at the injector might be my best option...

Good thoughts trbankii... that's why I am going to the shop everyday to monitor all the work done. I'm a power engineer by trade, and relying on my training to get me to the end of this project... along with ALL the good folks on this forum. ( also see my post on Do I need a new Mechanic).

Yesterday the mechanic needed to grind out an inch from the bottom bell housing cover... as it rubbed on the girdle. He did a good job.

My mechanic couldn't fit the dual thermostat housing as it rubbed on the idler pulley bracket. He wanted to install the single thermostat housing instead... I said no way. I did have to grind a little meat out of the idler pulley bracket to fit in the dual thermostat housing... no big deal. Tip from Diesel Page Volume I or II. He also cut my new house from Thermostat housing to water pump according to the old single thermostat housing, so guess what, I need to buy another new hose.

He could not fit the forward steel injector line properly... so I brought him the line off the same motor the dual therm's came with... they weren't much different, so I took the one he struggled with and turned it 180 degrees and it fit pretty nice. He had it backwards... COME-ON!

Wish me luck, it should start today... or tomorrow .
Mike

DmaxMaverick

04-24-2008, 09:57

You may want to verify the injector line installation. 2 lines (at the pump) can be switched, and they "just" fit, similar to what you described.

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/attachment.php?attachmentid=283&stc=1&d=1176770866

ronniejoe

04-24-2008, 10:06

I think he meant the steel return line that runs across the front of the engine.

JetBoater

04-24-2008, 11:57

Yes... sorry, I was talking about the injector return line. Not the main injector lines.

Just checked in with him by phone, the steering pump, idler and crank pulley, vacuum pump, alternator, and ac pump are now mounted. He has the radiator in also.

A few belts, hoses, and wires... and we should be there.

I need to check my book on glow plug wiring, he said he can't remember how they connect.

A short piece of exhaust pipe will finish the underside of truck and we should be close to the initial startup.
Mike

JetBoater

04-26-2008, 08:47

It rumbles to life!

Well... after repairing the passenger side glow plug wires and the solenoid starter wire (they were all broken or breaking), we did the voltage adjustment on the TPS after the batteries were hooked up.

The cruise was not hooked up as the throttle bracket didn't fit geometrically the way it should. The bracket was welded by the dude I bought the old motor and the dual thermostat housing from... that motor did have a DB2-4911 pump on it, so I'll need to figure this out at a later time. :confused: I'll post a picture on a separate thread and see if anyone can advise how it should fit.

We cracked the fuel filter cannister and attached a hose for drainage. We cracked the injector lines at the injectors and started short burst of turning the engine over. The batteries seemed dead so we put them on charge until my mechanic figured out the ground from the driver's side battery to the motor was hanging up in the wheel well :o. After he re-attached the ground cable to the block... we had plenty of juice to spin the motor and prime the fuel filter and verify oil pressure. This took 5 sessions of cycling the motor about 6 revolutions at a time.

When we verified fuel weeping around each injector, we tightened up the lines.

She fired right up! :) Nice clean exhaust... the oil pressure was hanging around 3/4 of the gauge.

We shut it down after 1 minute to check the oil level, the restarted and ran it for approximately 20 minutes. The 180 degree thermostats took over 15 minutes to open.. and the guage only rose to 40 C ( the starting point). I'll need to check the sensor. We verified flow through the rad and purged all the air.

Low coolant light was on, so my mechanic found the wire and attached it to the sensor.. light went away :o.

No leaks... it sounds healthy... and rumbles as loud and my former 6.5! :D I ran around town for about 45 minutes yesterday. The only problem was the fuel gauge occasionally jumped up and then settling back down to the 1/2 full level. Hmm... wiring? :confused: This happend 4-5 times during the drive.

The oil pressure settled to about half the guage at idle, and rose to 3/4 on acceleration... ;)

I need to adjust the wastegate on the turbo, as it did not spool up on the drive home. I called my local injection shop.. and they advised they could time the IP, but it only goes a 1/2 degree either way. I'll see if I get any black smoke on acceleration once the turbo is rolling.

I'll drive the motor normal and change the oil after the first 300 km (150 miles).

After I save a few dollars, I'll add an intercooler and 4 inch exhaust. I needed to use the original 3" exhaust to get the truck rolling yesterday. After this additional work, I'll have it dyno'd and share the numbers.

Thanks to all for the input.
Mike

1999GMC

04-27-2008, 21:45

Glad to hear it. Can't wait to see dyno numbers.

JetBoater

05-01-2008, 07:54

I have 150 kms on it so far which has used about 1/3rd of a gas tank... the mileage seems bad. Is that normal? What is the normal range on a tank of diesel in a dually?

The oil remains clean so far... I assume that fantasy of clean engine oil will not last much longer.

I had the truck timed at a local shop called N.W. Injection. They advanced it just slightly. I asked them to give it the "once-over" and they gave it a clean bill of health.

Everything is in order... I just need to get some miles on it.
;)
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/1993ChevyDiesel35004X4003.jpg

05-01-2008, 19:30

I have been averaging about 18 - 19 mpg (US) in my dually. I get over 500 miles per tank, I think it is 32 US gals.

JetBoater

07-08-2008, 09:43

Well... I have spent quite some time diagnosing a mystery Oil leaks.

It turns out the long block was missing 4 bolts at the bottom of the timing chain cover. I did notice this... but the holes were filled with black RTV. Who knew? Franklin Ohio engineer confirmed bolts should be there.

I bought 10 mm bolts and buttoned up the bottom. The threaded holes on the side of the T cover do not thread into the block. See adjacent to harmonic dampner in picture below. I installed short bolts to plug holes.
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Diesels/P400/PanRemoval/blueprint/PanFit/EngineReadyForInstall.jpg

I used the best RTV I know of to seal the seam.... Ford TA-31. It is a grey paste, offered in half-sized calking tubes, and dries very hard. It sucks to have an oil leak on a new motor due to a bad assembler and poor line inspection.

A 2nd leak was also fixed between water pump base plate and timing chain cover..... my garage mechanic used a budget gasket without sealer. I Re&Re'd that in 3 hours.

Leaks fixed.

JetBoater

07-08-2008, 10:05

I read the DIY Charge Air Cooler article and generally followed it for the most part.

I modified plumbing and did the install to suite my truck. I had previously installed large aftermarket oil cooler lines... and therefore needed to place the intercooler lower under the bumper due to inference.

Here are pictures for you viewing pleasure starting from the turbo:

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IMG_1199.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IMG_1195.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IC_PassSideShot1copy.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IC_DriversSideShotBottomBolts.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IMG_1194.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IMG_1197.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IMG_1200.jpg
http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IMG_1192.jpg

Cost was approximately $475

I haven't dyno'd the truck yet but it has noticeably more pull...

I'll be fabing up an intercooler guard to prevent banging the thing. It is in a horrible spot... be we work with what we are given.

Robyn

07-08-2008, 19:32

Yessssss indeed, a wretched place to put a cooler I agree. :eek:

I have seen one placed in a custom winch bumper brush guard up front that looked nice and protected the cooler very well.

The only way it would get hurt would be a direct head on crash.
The cooler was behind a nice aluminum expanded metal grill to keep rocks off it too.

Nice job on your truck BTW.

Anxious to hear the results of your tests.

best

Robyn

JetBoater

08-09-2008, 08:24

Well... I'm nearing the end of my project truck and I'm going to miss wrenching on it.... kind-of. Here are a few pics of the "protection" I put in front of the intercooler.

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IntercoolerGrate/IntercollerGrate1.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IntercoolerGrate/IntercollerGrateSideView1.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IntercoolerGrate/IntercollerGrateSideViewDS.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/IntercoolerGrate/IntercollerGrill1.jpg

The skeleton will hopefully provide protection from a dreaded collision with anything.

I put a jack under the 3/8" bottom steel plate and it has the strength to hold both front wheels off the ground! The aluminum grill/shield is for rocks. I am heading down 60 km (40 miles) of gravel on Sunday to get to a fishing destination... I wanted protection from the stones.

JetBoater

08-09-2008, 08:25

Forgot to mention... the skeleton above is welded between hooks. To remove you unbolt the hooks and 2 more grade 8 bolts on the bottom plate.

JetBoater

08-09-2008, 08:32

I installed dual 9" electric "pull" fans... made in Italy. I hooked them up through a relay and manual switch inside the cab.

The fans will probably only be used when cruising up a long steep grade... but I added them because thats when you need the cooling most!

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/mods021.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/mods020.jpg

http://i97.photobucket.com/albums/l240/jetboater/Trucks/mods022.jpg

The switch on the dash lights up when the fans are rolling!
Cheers..;)

GMC Hauler

08-10-2008, 03:42

Please keep me informed of testing with and without the fans. That is a mod i have been contemplating...

More Power

08-15-2008, 21:25

Nice work JB. Does your IC sit any lower than the commercial kit IC's?

The Turbo Tech IC I installed in our 6.5 project back a few years ago didn't sit low enough to be affected by concrete parking lot stops or curb height objects.

Jim

JetBoater

08-18-2008, 08:13

I pulled a good hill going in and out of Port Alberni during the trip.

It was a cool day going up the pass on the way in... and the fans kept the engine temp steady.

It was a record HOT day going back out of the same mountain pass and the fans didn't seem to be a benefit at all. I pegged the manual temp at 240°F(measured just before rad), the dash gauge read 100°C (212°F) in the engine. Ambient outside temp was 36°C (97°F).

The truck needs more fuel. No black smoke up the climbs, the pyro read 600°F max. I'll get the IP bumped up more and dyno it at the same time.

Jim.. I'll measure the height on the IC skid plate... it looks to be 9 inches off the ground... a touch lower than the cross member. I am going to weld a lip on the front of it to prevent scooping snow in the winter :)

GMC Hauler

08-18-2008, 14:32

JetBoater

08-19-2008, 07:19

The fans DO help... but not so much on a record hot day.

General thermal dynamics principles tell us that air flows from a high to a low. When you pull or push air through anything, it draws the heat away.

Ambient temperatures have a big effect on the cooling. High ambient = less cooling, Low ambient = more cooling. I'm pulling 590 cfm per fan. 1180 cfm total. This will move more heat than pushing the IC through air in front and under the truck.

I'm happy with it... but would have really liked to stuff two 10" fans totaling 2140 cfm behind the IC. They wouldn't fit in the location unfortunately.

Go big if you want more gain :)!

JetBoater

08-19-2008, 07:27

Jim... The lowest portion of the skid plate is 8 3/4" off the ground. If I trimmed the front of it off I would gain half an inch in height.

I left it hanging out to prevent bumping anything against the aluminum grill.

moondoggie

08-22-2008, 15:21

Good Day!

Please forgive a question from someone that knows close to nothing about such things, but I would think the temp to monitor would be EGT. It would seem that cooling intake air would certainly affect coolant temps, but the real goal is to get the charge air temps down, which should show up pretty directly in your EGT gauge.

I'm asking so I may learn, not because I think I know something about this - I don't.

Thanks & Blessings!

JetBoater

08-22-2008, 17:12

Keeping the turbo charged air cooled is the reason for the intercooler. The fans on the intercooler assist in lowering those intake air temps.

Cooler intake air temperatures will provide denser air, and more power. Yes, this will lower your EGT's.

My Pyro was running cool due to inadequate fuel delivery... it was not a big concern on the last trip because the engine was basically acting like a big air pump (600°F max). I have since bumped up the fuel, and therefore the performance.

An efficient air induction system inhaling fresh air will help lower your EGT's
A larger free flowing exhaust will lower your EGT's
A larger turbo which doesn't work as hard at the same boost level will also lower your EGT's

Sorry if I confused things with engine temps on my previous thread.... I was just providing all the pertinent info.

moondoggie

08-23-2008, 08:08

Good Day!

It's me, not you - I have a room in the home for the perpetually confused. :D

Blessings!
(signature in previous post)

67_C-30

09-14-2008, 16:10

Very cool thread! I can't wait to see it on the dyno!

JetBoater

09-18-2008, 10:35

I'm happy to report the dyno info can now be found under the September 2008 Update, members section ;).

Link: http://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/mrp400c.htm

JoeyD

09-20-2008, 17:59

What did it dyno out at?

Robyn

09-21-2008, 07:53

I have a quicky ????????

If the GM 4X4 rig to receive a P400 has had a major lift using the kits that drop the front differential down with special brackets, will the pan that comes with the P400 fit and not hit things ???

Any Ideas??

I have coming a 92 Burb 2500 4x4 that has a 4 inch Body lift as well as a 6 inch suspension lift (Kit)

It has a 454 doing the pulling now but I am planning on a repower with a 6.2.

A fresh P400 at some time would be sweet.

Thanks

Robyn

JoeyD

09-21-2008, 18:15

The IFS lift kits bolt to all the stock suspension points with brackets or a sub frame. Hard to say but I think it won't fit. Not much room under there.
If you had a solid axle swap like I do I think it would fit as long as the pan will fit between the frame rails.

JetBoater

09-23-2008, 06:12

I'm working in Denver this week... so I'll run a tape down the forward portion of the pan for you when I get back.

The girdle drops the pan down 3" and the cast aluminum pan is at least 6" deep at the bottom, where it tapers sharply down. The pan will fit if you can get the room... it fits fine between the frame rails. If I remember correctly, the stock pan was 8.5" at the deepest portion. You can eyeball with a tape and check for general interference.

I would run the stock P400 pan if its close... you can always make a few welding mods if necessary.... my welder does work on cast aluminum.

The truck's final dyno numbers were 215 hp and 470 lb-ft of torque. I'm sure there are losses of at least 20% through the auto transmission, transfer case, and drive train. Maybe someone can comment on what the numbers would be at the flywheel.

JoeyD

09-25-2008, 03:59

Good numbers. Are you looking for more or is it staying?

JetBoater

09-25-2008, 06:21

The truck pulls well enough for me... I am happy with the power.

The real test will be mountain climbing with the camper (2500 lbs) and boat (4500 lbs) loaded with gear, in tow.

If the EGT's stay under control, I'll be a happy camper.

85-m1028

09-26-2008, 09:24

I have a few questions.

-With the steel crank do you think the factory harmonic balancer is a non issue?

-Did they use a timing chain?

-Do the heads work with the van style centermount turbo intake?

JetBoater

09-27-2008, 08:26

I am not clear on your harmonic question... this part should always be in mint condition, whether you have a cast or a forged crank. Dampner should be replaced if worn or questionable.

A standard timing chain was used on the P400.

The heads will work with the center mount turbo intake as this engine was designed to drop into HMVV's. I believe these are identical... don't quote me!

I would refer you to the members area article: http://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/65marketsharec.htm
This includes a side view of the center mount turbo setup.

85-m1028

09-27-2008, 10:43

good point on the balancer, some times it's hard to tell the condition of the balancer if you aren't the original owner..

I guess the timing chains are good enough

did you have to change the heads to a side mount turbo style??
I have civy H-1 center mount turbo engine currently and its block is the time bomb model so I will need a new long block eventualy..

JetBoater

09-27-2008, 10:59

Heads are identical. I noticed that some intake gaskets are thicker than others... which can throw the geometry off a hair.

Heads all interchange from what I have experienced.
Cheers! Mike

85-m1028

09-27-2008, 11:04

Interesting I thought the heads were different for the centermount turbo "something about the angle of the intake"

BigDiesel

11-01-2008, 23:17

What is your mileage like now?

JetBoater

11-02-2008, 10:28

I haven't been tracking the mileage as I have had the 11.5' Bigfoot camper on the back for the past few months. Pointless trying to determine mileage while hauling a barn on the back.

I ran it over a scale at the end of my last trip:
Front axle: 1800 KG (3968 lbs)
Rear axle: 2800 KG (6173 lbs)

I know I'm doing better than a couple of friend's truck/camper units... as we have filled up before and after fishing trips. They have gas units though.

I'll have the camper on through the end of the year. After I pull it off, I'll burn a full tank without weight and get back to you then.

The rig is running great!

I recently replaced both truck batteries in the truck. The camper's 4D battery killed the truck batteries. We camp in the boonies for days without power.

I installed 2 interstate 6v Golf Cart batteries in the camper, and added a 120amp isolator to prevent future leaching issues.

Cheers!

moondoggie

11-02-2008, 10:38

Good Day!

"Pointless trying to determine mileage while hauling a barn on the back." I would respectfully disagree, although certainly whether you check mpg or not is entirely up to you.

Hauling loads, including aerodynamic loads, is where diesels really shine. My former neighbor pulls a 48' gooseneck race trailer. He got ~ 7 mpg with his 454 Chev, & now gets ~ 10 mpg with his 7.3 PS. That doesn't sound like much of an improvement, but invert the numbers. He used to burn ~ 14 gallons to go 100 miles, now he burns ~ 10 gallons. That's a 29% drop in fuel consumption, which is a huge improvement. Of course, with today's prices, it's still costing more to pull with his diesel, but hopefully that will return to some normalcy before too long.

Blessings!

JetBoater

11-02-2008, 10:46

Oops... what I meant to say was pointless to determine optimal mileage. The numbers would be useful comparatively... so you are quite correct!

I have to pull the rig through 30 minutes of start-stop traffic before entering the freeway... so everything is relative.

I was considering a fuel meter similar to what they install on marine applications... computers provide point to point and long-term data. Just another project.

I'll see what I can provide in the interm ;). Thanks for the reply.

moondoggie

11-02-2008, 11:03

Good Day!

"I'll see what I can provide in the interm." I'd suggest you collect mpg data if that's what you want to do; if you do, sharing them here can be helpful to some of us. When we pulled our little enclosed snowmobile trailer (like SM727TA2 except 25' long [here (http://www.uscargo.com/uscargo/default.asp?page=products&type=snowmobiletrailers&model=snowmate7)]), we always got 12 - 16 mpg at legal speeds, 14 mpg with no winds or few hills. I got a big kick out of knowing I was using LOTS less fuel than if I had a gasser.

Blessings!
(signature in previous post)

rustyk

11-03-2008, 22:43

I haven't been tracking the mileage as I have had the 11.5' Bigfoot camper on the back for the past few months. Pointless trying to determine mileage while hauling a barn on the back.

Cheers!

I feel your pain - I shove a motorhome 8' wide and 11' tall (not counting the roof thingies), but I average over 10mpg - more like 10.5, on the AMG 6500 Economizer. This is ~15% better than the stock 6.5L, and the extra power is appreciated.

AllThumbs

10-08-2010, 20:52

New information has sort of died on this thread. Can anyone update it? Have these engines proven to be as durable as thought? Do they really have that much increased power? What kind of mileage do they get, particularly towing or pushing large RVs? Have they come out with a workable pan yet?

Just thought it was time to see some updates on this since there should be some real road miles on them by now.

Thanks

rustyk

10-08-2010, 21:18

I have 67K on mine in <4 years, and the M/H hasn't lost any weight. No issues. A Sun Coast Converters magic-wand-waving on the TC and tranny bumped fuel economy to 11.7 mpg. There's no comparison (@ 230 HP) with the stock engine.

AllThumbs

10-09-2010, 07:06

I'm thinking of doing the same thing to my pickup and wondering how difficult it will be to bolt it all up. Sure sounds like the engine is the way to go.

JetBoater

10-12-2010, 08:17

My truck is only used for recreation and has about 12,000 km on it at this point.

It's sad to see it in my driveway most of the time, sitting for weeks between usage.

I just came back from a 5 day camping trip, and running as good as the day my P400 went into service. No oil leaks either!

It does heat up on long steep grades, but cools down quickly. This has not proved to be a problem to date.

The horsepower hasn't changed... dyno'd at 215 hp, 470 lb/ft of torque. I pull a 21' boat in addition to my 11.5 ' camper.. so it is pulling what I feel is it's maximum load. The motor doesn't seem to work any harder with over a ton of camper, but it feels the additional boat on hills.

The truck is cheaper to run than my 2001 R/T Durango... but what isn't. I have been tracking the fuel/fill/mileage, so will do the math and come back with some numbers.

trbankii

10-12-2010, 08:30

So, who are the sources for a P400? I seem to recall that Penninsular is one?

JetBoater

10-12-2010, 09:04

I compared a few trips and the overall mileage from the past year of driving.

The fuel mileage was 20.8 L/100km or 11.3 miles/Gallon on last years fishing trip. The same trip this year was was 19.7 L/100km or 11.9 miles/Gallon. It appears my mileage is getting a bit better.

The overall mileage was 10.9 miles per gallon. I had the camper off for a few months to haul some wood, but this is overall with the camper and/or boat.

I have a heavy foot, and am not shy about working the motor. I am sure the mileage would improve if I didn't like to accelerate with the rest of the cars on the road.

JetBoater

10-12-2010, 09:27

I purchased the upper intake for my intercooler from Pennisular.

I bought the P400 from W W Williams, Defense Business Development. This was direct from General Engine Products Franklin Ohio plant. You can order the long block with 18:1 or 20:1 compression.

The oil pan was the only issue to consider prior to ordering an engine... everything else bolts up without issue. ;)

mikefairbanks

09-12-2012, 14:36

Thanks for the positive feedback Robyn. I don't mind paying good money to have a craftsman do the job right and in a timely fashion.

The Moroso oil pickup is going in tomorrow. Hopefully I can provide some install shots after that.
Mike

Mike, I'm in the process of putting a P400 in my '95 K3500, so will be attempting to do the same oil pan that you have. Can you tell me which Moroso oil pickup you used?

Thanks, Mike

JetBoater

09-14-2012, 05:24

I don't recall which number of Moroso pickup it was, but it doesn't really matter.

I only used the end off it and welded it to the stock P400 tube.. if you do the same, you will need to adjust/rotate the tube into the correct position.

Ensure this tube is secured once it has been fabricated.

Cheers,
Mike

JetBoater

09-16-2012, 08:46

Hmm.. posted a reply a couple of days ago. Not sure why it didn't go through.

I rotated the existing P400 tube down to the bottom of the pan sump and only used the end of the Moroso pickup. I would use the existing oil pickup and cut/weld the tube to fit/place it appropriately in your pan.

Be sure to secure the tube once you have it positioned where you want it. I bent/used the existing bracket to hold tube in position.

My P400 has been my recreational powerplant since 2008 and hasn't let me down yet! It has lots of power for my needs and the truck has been running at it's GVW limit since the motor was installed. You will be happy with it, without a doubt.

Wishing you success! Mike

mikefairbanks

09-24-2012, 14:12

Thanks Mike.

I'm still waiting to get the pan rail sorted with Jeff at Industrial Laser Cutting. He quoted me $150 for the rail, but I've been having trouble getting in touch with him to finalize the order.

My long block should be in Tacoma this week, then on the truck to Alaska... so hope to have it by the beginning of next week.

I may be crazy, but the first thing I'm going to do when it arrives is pull the heads off, and take them into the machine shop for some valve work. I'm also going to talk to them about the price to port match the intake and exhaust. Don't know if I'll have that done or not... it depends on the quote they give me.

I've got a Fluidampr, Phazer timing gears, S&B cold air intake, and new battery & glow plug wiring from PT wiring solutions sitting on the shelf waiting.

Also going on the new motor will be Bill Heath's Super Duty cooling upgrade, and his brand new P400 camshaft, a heavy duty lift pump, and the SS feed the beast mod.

The truck already has a 4" exhaust system, bigger mandrel bent crossover, a turbomaster, and Heath's Max E Tork tow program... which I have sent back for reprogramming for the new P400 cam.

The radiator is already at the rad shop getting checked out and cleaned up. Other than that, I'm putting in an hour or two every evening pulling the old motor apart.

JetBoater

09-25-2012, 13:51

I wasn't as 'hardcore' as you!

The $150 for cutting the flange seems a bit pricey, as you know it cost $100 in 2008 and inflation didn't go up 50%.

Wishing you success!

mikefairbanks

09-28-2012, 14:39

I don't suppose you have a part number for the oil pan gasket? I haven't been able to find that anywhere yet.

mikefairbanks

10-02-2012, 10:56

I have not been successful in finding a part number for an oil pan gasket for the P400. Were you able to find one, or did you just silicon it on?

JetBoater

10-03-2012, 17:04

Hi Mike,
The original pan was found sealed with black silicone, so hate to say it, but I used Ford TA-31 sealant to do the job. It is a viscous grey paste and is holding up well.

I sprung a very small leak approximately 6 months after motor was put into service, but believe it is coming from a pan bolt..... it doesn't drip.

Extra attention to this unless you want a mess sometime after the job is done.

You could make your own gasket, using the pan or motor as a template... kinda finicky, but may be worth it. Both surfaces are flat and I had a couple of narrow spots to deal with.

Cheers, :cool:

JorgeNY6.5

11-04-2012, 17:39

I just got done reading this entire thread, very awesome build and great job you did.

This long block came with no manifolds or fuel system right?

One thing I have to know is, why in hell would you bother or waste your time using a gm turbo? Especially after you put all the high dollar in the rest of the motor.

I mean the stock turbo is a big choke point and most likely the reason 6.5s blow out. The drive pressure to boost ratio is way off.

Just think how much you could benefit from a larger freer flowing turbo, Lower temps, less back pressure on the motor, better economy, more power and performance and most likely more longevity.

I don't mean to tell you what to do, just sharing some insight so you can better improve what you have.

Again great build and thanks for sharing.

JetBoater

11-05-2012, 11:34

The GM turbo was used mostly due to the fact that I did not have the time to fab up a transition plate for an alternate turbo at the time. My concern was getting my truck in service.

The old turbo has been working just fine, and spools up quickly. A larger breathing turbo would definitely run a cooler engine, but I only climb a few humps on my annual camping/boating trips... so it's not a big deal.

I appreciate the comments. :cool:

mikefairbanks

02-04-2013, 09:31

I guess it's a good thing I've got a day job!

It took me 5 1/2 months, but the truck is back on the road with the P400 in it. Took it out of the shop under its own power for the first time yesterday. In my own defense, it did take 3 months to get the new long block to Alaska!

Thanks again JetBoater for going there first, and giving me the information for getting the oil pan rail. The oil pan turned out great, and holds 12 qts.

I did not end up installing the phazer gear drive at Bill Heath's recommendation. I'm running his new P400 cam, and he felt strongly that I should stick with the chain since that's what the cam was designed for. (anybody interested in a "new, never used" phazer gear drive)

I went ahead and did the DIY CAC too. On my test drive yesterday ambient temp was about +10F, and my IAT was +22F.

Only 50 miles on the new motor at this point... but it seems very smooth, and has tons of power right from the start. Haven't put my foot in it yet, or done any pulling. But am looking forward to camping season this summer.

JetBoater

02-04-2013, 11:02

Congratulations on re-powering your truck with the P400 Mike!

It has proven extremely reliable for me and I'm sure you'll find the same thing. Enjoy and keep us all posted.

:cool:

JorgeNY6.5

02-04-2013, 19:47

What turbo are you using?

I guess it's a good thing I've got a day job!

It took me 5 1/2 months, but the truck is back on the road with the P400 in it. Took it out of the shop under its own power for the first time yesterday. In my own defense, it did take 3 months to get the new long block to Alaska!

Thanks again JetBoater for going there first, and giving me the information for getting the oil pan rail. The oil pan turned out great, and holds 12 qts.

I did not end up installing the phazer gear drive at Bill Heath's recommendation. I'm running his new P400 cam, and he felt strongly that I should stick with the chain since that's what the cam was designed for. (anybody interested in a "new, never used" phazer gear drive)

I went ahead and did the DIY CAC too. On my test drive yesterday ambient temp was about +10F, and my IAT was +22F.

Only 50 miles on the new motor at this point... but it seems very smooth, and has tons of power right from the start. Haven't put my foot in it yet, or done any pulling. But am looking forward to camping season this summer.

mikefairbanks

02-20-2013, 16:18

What turbo are you using?

It has the stock GM-4 turbo in it still with a turbo-master set at 15 psi max. I've looked at a lot of information on other turbos, but since this is my daily driver, as well as my camper hauler I'm hesitant to put a big turbo in it that would be great when towing, but not so great on a daily basis.

I've heard rumors on a new turbo being designed specifically for this motor that I am really looking forward to coming available.

I haven't towed anything with it yet, but I've got 1400+ miles on it already, and it pulls hard... much stronger than the old motor.

greatwhite

06-18-2013, 08:05

The GM8 turbocharger isn't as bad as everyone "thinks" it is. The numbers I pulled in my signature line were with a GM8.

Now, are there better units out there?

Heck yeah, the GM8 has design roots as far back as the early 90's. There's been lots of advancements since then.

Would I be using a Chinese knock off turbo or a Holset take off unit to replace it?

Nope....I'd buy a new one after some serious consultation with a manufacturer. Big bucks though, better get ready to pony up new unit prices plus a premium for going where no one has gone before.

I really like the BW EFR series. Not cheap by a good margin though....