Medium Duty Quality thread- Monroe

[Braveheart]

I had the recent pleasure of purchasing a C4500 with a pickup conversion from Monroe with So-Low suspension. I took delivery of the vehicle with 0.7 miles on it at the Monroe's Flint facility. I was excited to stand next to it, but everything else was a disappointment. So began the saga.

This vehicle incidentally passed all of Monroe's and GM's QC checks. It has been the most disappointing vehicle purchase that I have ever made. I want to increase the awareness of these problems for everyone...to advance the knowledge of this community. I encourage all of the medium duty owners to check their vehicles for the same problems and check NHTSA.gov for TSB's and defects investigatons for their particular vehicle as well. GM is getting ready to sell off the medium duty products to Navistar...maybe no one cares anymore.

The vehicle did not get a pre-purchase inspection by the dealer, so this is how it comes. And don't forget...your medium duty dealer may not be your local neighborhood dealer.

At 0.7 miles:

1) Driver's headlight out.
2) Headlights not aimed...pointing about 15 feet infront of the truck...just about useless. Monroe does not apparently align or examine the headlights after altering the suspension of the truck.
3) Water leaking through cab lights onto the brake pedal and onto the driver's floor.
4) Right rear passenger door leading edge so far out of alignment that air and water could enter the passenger compartment. Every '07 Kodiak that I have seen has the same door problem!
5) Severe front end vibration at 50, 60, and 70 mph with severe steering wheel shake at higher speeds. I've discovered that GM didn't bother balancing the Alcoa wheels. The medium duty dealer recently put 5 oz on weight on each of them and the vibration persists. Flat spots? Monroe's shocks? Alignment? All are possible culprits of the continued vibration.
6) Steering wheel about 20 degrees clockwise. Monroe's 0.6 mi test drive obviously failed to see this or the vibration. No alignment bolts touched, so I guess it wasn't aligned after being lowered 2". I was told by Monroe's inside sales that if the steering wheel is straight on the test drive that the QC check is satisfied!
7) Rust on all the aftermarket fasteners and rusty scuffs on the running boards. The suspension U-bolts look awful from behind. Beware snow belters!
8) No apparent block sanding of the Monroe pickup bed. Fine imperfections up and down the length of the fiberglass.
9) GM's orangepeel on the cab finish is awful. Monroe's finishing process was far superior on the bed. To the trained eye..this is the dead giveaway that the paint wasn't put on by the same process.
10) Brake squeal. I think this is also a common problem.
11) Factory CD radio stinks. Not really a problem...this is a commercial vehicle right?

My truck has already spent a day at the GM dealer and there was a lot of finger pointing at Monroe. Monroe's warranty folks seem anxious to help, but why should I have to do all of this? I now have to take it to a tractor alignment facility to align Monroe's suspension, and my experience tells me the vibration won't be solved here. It's going to be a David V. Goliath and a lot more finger pointing.

It now has 800 miles on it and I haven't been able to tow anything secondary to the vibration.

Also, beware of the titling and insurance woes. In Ohio, it is considered commercial from both the titling, financing, and insurance standpoint. Get quotes first! Only GMAC seems willing to treat it as a non-comm vehicle.
There is no JD Power or Kelly Blue book or Edmunds to keep you out of these possible shark infested waters.

I encourage feedback. Maybe a Medium duty "quality" forum should be started.

[DmaxMaverick]

I won't defend GM when they lay an egg, and they do on occasion. Your complaints lie with the upfitter. Every complaint you've stated, except for the radio (old news...), and perhaps the door alignment, is a component either replaced, or modified, by the upfitter. How can you include GM in such a complaint? This would seem to me to have nothing to do with GM's QC. The dealer should be responsible for the door alignment and radio, but the driveability issues you have are not a GM QC issue. You are due a functional vehicle, and should have it. Bashing GM because the upfitter dropped the ball isn't serving your needs, nor will it get you a working truck.

[Braveheart]

I'm not into mud slinging for fun. This looks like a pandemic from my perspective, so I will defend my position.

GM is responsible for the defective headlamp, which is a pretty big issue when you are driving the vehicle for the first time at dusk. I had to bail out in a rest area in a Michigan snow storm and then limp to a parts joint just to get the truck home. I also had to buy a cheap torx driver. Upon replacing the headlamp I realized that the steel springs and stamped housings were all badly corroded...not terribly pleasant to deal with with cold fingers, and not a bright outlook for future headlight changes.

No one inspected the door at body. There was another Kodiak at the dealership of the same year...with exactly the same door issue. I did not feel alone. This was not an accident with just this truck.

Shipping a vehicle with a factory wheel option and not placing a single wheel weight on those wheels when they were 5oz out of balance doesn't really seem appropriate.

Then the cab lights...water all over the brake actuating rod and the pedal which was frozen. Water in the dash and on the brake system looks like a safety matter waiting to happen. Again, the other Kodiak at the dealership had a wet headliner and water inside too, and there were a pile of new cab lights on the seat waiting to be installed.

We agree on the radio! But I really did not expect much with the size of that cab and the size of the speakers.

Monroe and GM seem like equals to me. 6 or 7 of the 11 points point to GM. My opinion. And I absolutely respect yours and anyone elses for that matter. This is my third GM. Maybe I've had bad luck this time, but that is for everyone else to decide. I tried really hard to be objective and not opinionated.

[DmaxMaverick]

There's no excuse for misaligned doors. To find two on the same lot with the same issue is very unusual. I've seen dozens of 4500's, and none had this issue. Must have been the same guy doing the doors on those trucks. I dunno about the headlamp issue. Could be unique, and could have been caused by the upfitter. Either way, the upfitter should have caught whatever issue there was with it, as they should have been adjusted and inspected along with the suspension mods. Period. The water leak is another issue, and should be addressed. I've not heard of it around here (CA). Wheel weights? Same thing. You could have just bought a "Friday truck". It happens. Most of the GM medium duty truck reports have been very positive, so it's hard to say just what's going on. Unless you have operated the truck before the upfitter got it, you really have no way of knowing what issues they are responsible for. That said, I think your issues, for the most part, are unique to your experience. Warning other MD owners of all your issues is a good thing, but we have to be careful where the "Chicken Little" line is drawn.

[Mark Rinker]

I have been watching this product line carefully and would have to agree that there appears to be QC problems, especially in the later models.

The number of 20-30K mile C4500s on the new/used market is very high, and I have talked to a handful of loyal GM light duty truck owners that were sorely disappointed in their C4500 purchase. Mostly what I would call interior and body 'fit and finish' issues. We know the drivetrain is strong.

As for the radio, upgrade your front door speakers, adding insulation, and you'll be amazed at the power and sound of the GM factory radio.

Also, there is a perception problem in the customer base as well...the Chevrolet customer steps out of the quietest and most refined 3500 one-ton pickup on the market into a rough-around-the-edges, noisy, harsh riding BEAST that clearly isn't for everyone. Certainly, one look at the front axle and spring assembly should tell you this truck is not for taking your date to the movies in. My wife and kids flat out refuse to ride any distance with me, only the driver's chair is air-ride, and the other seats are fixed and very harsh.

Alot of the body problems stem from the harsh unloaded ride. Anything that can rattle loose, will rattle loose over time.

This farm boy has spent lots of hours in more crude ma-cheens, and I suspect the first owner of my truck worked through the factory gremlins in the 20K miles he put on. I know it was into the dealer a handful of times for small repairs, and replaced the driver's seat entirely.

The good news? Put 6,000#s on the flatbed, or 14,000# behind the Kodiak and it smooths right out and asks how far you want to go! This week is Minneapolis to Phoenix, and I am looking forward to the miles. My advice if you have driven a Kodiak (at least 50 miles, loaded and unloaded, not just around the block) and still want one? Buy used. There are some great deals out there...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Other-Pickups-Kodiak-C4500-THE-BEAST-ONE-OWNER-BLOWN-AND-INJECTED-DIESEL-CLEAN_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ5348QQihZ011QQite mZ320213598169QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

Offer this dealer 30K cash and I bet you'd have a new truck. It cost someone 60K to upfit.

[Braveheart]

Again...this is all objective.

I have since spoken to Monroe's warranty department today, and although I invited them to call the dealer while the vehicle was in for service, they are doing it now. That is not proactive. I informed them that the GM mechanic said the alignment was Monroe's responsibility...and that it needed one. Monroe's initial stance was that "lowering" had no effect on the Kodiak's alignment, and that is GM's responsibility. They said they would stand behind their product yesterday... their response today is that "Monroe is not paying for an alignment." I guess things change. The Gen. Mngr. is to call me later.

Looking at the suspension design, toe is fixed...unless you change the castor angle. And in this case the steering wheel is out of alignment. So at the least, it needs an alignment to center the wheel. That is Monroe's responsibility, plain and simple. I cannot believe what is happening.

I talked to Goodyear about the vibration to get some further insight. My cab/chassis could have been sitting for 10 months, and I had questions about steel belt -memory- flat spots. I informed them that all the MD trucks that Monroe gets for upfitting do not have wheel weights too! (That information came from Monroe. GM is delivering MD trucks without checking wheel balance according to them.) Mine was an example of this. Goodyear agreed that GM is going to cause the new tires to cup at the least from bouncing down the road, and then here goes another line of fingerpointing and wasted time. Goodyear advised me to take it to a truck tire service center and have the radial and lateral runout of the tires checked, as well as the Alcoa wheels, at their expense. Goodyear was more than pleasant to deal with.

Another question...why isn't anyone balancing these vehicles before delivery? Monroe didn't see it as their responsibility, even though they are the one transforming it into a "premium" product. GM installed the wheels and tires...so it's another hot-potato.

I need to hire someone to take this truck around town and make calls, so I don't have to take any more time off work! That is costing me big $$. It's become my second volunteer job.

Trust me...if the situation was different, I would have turned around and abandoned this vehicle. Unfortunately, my trip to pick up the Kodiak happened on a Friday evening in the middle of a nice lake-effect snow storm. I just wanted to get home at that point in time, and Monroe had locked the doors. Maybe, I should drive it the 300+ miles back to them now.

[Braveheart]

If it's true that the Medium Duties are not getting wheels balanced at delivery, I think GM may be responsible for the consequences. I'm getting this resolved early in the life-cycle of my tires, but if I was having premature wear and/or cupping, I think I would be making a much bigger issue of this. Wheels out of balance cause premature shock and tire failure.

This is a MD Quality thread. Chime in if your Kodiak doesn't have wheel weights.

Chime in if your Kodiak has quality problems in general. Things won't change unless we develop a community voice.

By the way...GM Medium duty cust.service called today. They reviewed my list of complaints...and when they found out it was up-fitted by Monroe, they wanted to close the case. They told me my only option was to take it to a GM/Monroe dealer which was 1.5 hours away. I urged them to keep the case open until the truck was right.

Monroe and GM have both denied me an alignment even though the vehicle was lowered, it continues to shake, the steering wheel is off, and the GM mechanic suggested it! They ignored the fact that the rear wheels still have not been balanced and ignored the other 5 issues that I had. I don't know what to do with the appointment that I have at the GM mechanic-approved, out-sourced truck shop. I am in communication with Goodyear too. They want it taken to one of their shops to check the radial runout for a possible defect. But, since the truck sat in Monroe's yard for so long they said they'd probably deny a claim for flat spots in the belt.

[Braveheart]

Monroe's Gen Mngr did not call; however, Monroe warranty department called again today to tell me that Monroe is not responsible for wheel balancing or alignments on their up-fits. They went further to say it was the consumer's responsibility. Well, there you have it. I guess unbolting the shackles, lowering the vehicle and moving the steering wheel out of position are not indications for an alignment. That is in direct conflict with the GM mechanic's opinion. Who would have thought?

I wonder who's responsibility it will be if the tire belts are ruined from sitting for a year in Monroe's pass-through yard?

[Braveheart]

So far there are 1 or 2 people on this thread with similar troubles, some of which are safety concerns. Please go to this link, put in vehicle year, make, and KODIAK, and type a few sentences. This is where we begin to get something done here.

You can select c4500 or c5500, but leave it under KODIAK.

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/Consumer.cfm (https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/Consumer.cfm)

Please let NHTSA know about your wheel weights, uneven tire wear, leaking cab lights, poorly aimed headlights, mirrors, etc...if it's a safety concern or defect, they will do an investigation, but like the Atty General, there needs to be multiple WRITTEN complaints to make something happen.

Identify the upfitter in the text too, if it relates to them.

[Duramaster]

:)I can tell you from experience that had the truck been through the PDI process, the water leak, door fit, headlamp, steering and possibly the vibration would have been addressed before you were to have taken possesion of the vehicle at my dealership. Problem is the truck roles off the assembly line and right through the hole in the fence (so I've been told) over to Monroe. No GM PDI is ever done UNLESS the vehicle is then shipped to a GM dealer after Monroe is done with the truck. We get Monroe conversions in all the time and they usually have a ton of Monroe related issues that need to be addressed before delivery to the customer. I noticed that you stated that you have the air suspension added to the truck....... not a GM option and could relate to the vibration problem if it turns out to be a driveline angle issue. I have also seen alot of new trucks come in with "SQUARE" tires. We then contact whoever the tire manufacturer is and they take care of that. The water leak is actually a common issue. The lenses are cracked around the screw holes. There are updated lenses for that. The head lights on every new vehicle have to be aligned. They are never right off of the assembly line. The steering wheel is easy enough. Check the toe, if ok then reposition the wheel on the column. The column is not keyed. You can put the wheel on 180 degrees out if you want! As far as the other complaints go, you and the dealer need to work it out with Monroe. It could be worse......... it could be a Regency conversion. They SUCK! It seems like every time we get one in, there are major problems with it!

One other issue you might run into is.............. who is going to work on this vehicle? In my area, the light duty dealers don't like to repair the C-4500 vehicles even though they are authorized to sell them. So where is your nearest Medium Duty Dealer? Good luck! :)

[Braveheart]

You are correct, and it follows with what my relatively-local MD dealer says, except, they routinely do not balance unless they feel a vibration. I'm not sure they would have picked up on the headlight alignment, unless they were specifically looking at it. The problem here is that, even though there are PDI monies for this type of thing, they would not touch any suspension related items unless Monroe Warranty gave consent...which they did not. The GM mechanic "sealed" but did not replace the cab lights, which I assume is because they were not cracked, and he fit the door nicely.

Recently, the delivering saleman has assured me that they would pay for an alignment and balancing on the company CC, just to avoid Monroe all-together on the other safety issues.

But that's the tragedy...hole in the fence or otherwise...these vehicles shouldn't be hitting the streets like they are. It's the 21st century, and there are certain basic standards that should be met at the manufacturer.

Let's not talk about "value" or "ride" on this thread. That is subjective. Please continue posting if you have quality issues. As I've said elsewhere, if we are complacent, further mediocrity with ensue, as it is evident there are no watchdogs and the manufacturers are taking full advantage.

[Braveheart]

So I took the early advice and had my Kodiak alignment looked at by a tractor pro--a real artisan.

He said that it was not acceptable for an alignment to be neglected by Monroe after such modifications. Mine was not tracking straight in the rear, secondary to a axle which was 1/8" off perpendicular, and you know about the steering wheel already.

Monroe drops these front ends (So-Low) about 2" and then moves the steering wheel about 2 splines one direction or another. On my truck, the wheel was still too far to the right--over corrected. Herein lies a major design flaw. It is my understanding, after my suspension clinic today, that steering boxes operate at their tightest tolerances where the factory zeros the steering wheel. There is a mark on the steering shaft at zero. By moving it 45 degrees, one side or the other, you are begging for sloppy steering and an uneven "feel" and "range" (his words.) Monroe does not install an adjustable drag link to put the steering box back to "zero" ...ever. This effectively lengthens the drag link. So they are begging for sloppy steering and again violating acceptable engineering standards. Looking at the design, I see now why I get bump steer which is worse on left wheel impacts than on the right, add that to the sloppy steering accuracy, and this shows how these could be made so, so much better.

Read: make a DOT-accepted adjustable drag link and you will sell hundreds.

We examined the new Goodyear Highway tires and there was significant tread lateral runout as well as a radial hop in each. This explains the vibration. The balance on one was still not perfect yet. I'm meeting with Goodyear tomorrow; we'll see how they will address this.

I will later measure the input and output angles on the drive shaft to see if they are within 4 degrees or whatever the spec is. This was recent advice.

I don't think the dealer would do this amount of "sorting" even if they are getting the PDI check.

[Mark Rinker]

So - do you think that your truck was a good value, overall? How's the ride? :D My 2004 Kodiak just turned over 70K miles yesterday. Over 50K in ~10 months. Its been a good truck for the intended purpose. Good luck with your upfit oversites. I agree that you are on to something here - that should be addressed before the customer takes delivery.

Question: What is your intended use for this truck?

[murphyslaw]

So I took the early advice and had my Kodiak alignment looked at by a tractor pro--a real artisan.

He said that it was not acceptable for an alignment to be neglected by Monroe after such modifications. Mine was not tracking straight in the rear, secondary to a axle which was 1/8" off perpendicular, and you know about the steering wheel already.

Monroe drops these front ends (So-Low) about 2" and then moves the steering wheel about 2 splines one direction or another. On my truck, the wheel was still too far to the right--over corrected. Herein lies a major design flaw. It is my understanding, after my suspension clinic today, that steering boxes operate at their tightest tolerances where the factory zeros the steering wheel. There is a mark on the steering shaft at zero. By moving it 45 degrees, one side or the other, you are begging for sloppy steering and an uneven "feel" and "range" (his words.) Monroe does not install an adjustable drag link to put the steering box back to "zero" ...ever. This effectively lengthens the drag link. So they are begging for sloppy steering and again violating acceptable engineering standards. Looking at the design, I see now why I get bump steer which is worse on left wheel impacts than on the right, add that to the sloppy steering accuracy, and this shows how these could be made so, so much better.

Read: make a DOT-accepted adjustable drag link and you will sell hundreds.

We examined the new Goodyear Highway tires and there was significant tread lateral runout as well as a radial hop in each. This explains the vibration. The balance on one was still not perfect yet. I'm meeting with Goodyear tomorrow; we'll see how they will address this.

I will later measure the input and output angles on the drive shaft to see if they are within 4 degrees or whatever the spec is. This was recent advice.

I don't think the dealer would do this amount of "sorting" even if they are getting the PDI check.

dump those goodyears and grab a set of Yokohama's. just my professional opinion.

[Braveheart]

Met the Goodyear representative today. I thought this was going to be the silver bullet. I was planning my first 600 mile trip with towing (same day) and was pushing it pretty close. The intended use of the truck is to pull 4 horses in a 8k trailer and pull a double car hauler. It pulled the empty horse trailer today. To concentrate on defects:

1) OE right front tire got replaced, as it had 65 thousandths of radial runout. He was not comfortable with it. The left had 40 thousandths-- less than 70 is within spec. He was not concerned with the tread lateral jog. He tried to reseat the bead to make it go away. No change. It got rebalanced up front. They checked it first with the GM MD dealer weights, and the balancer read "0"s. It had about 5-6 oz a piece, divided inside and out. They took off the weights...made a mess of the Aluminum incidentally... and the balancer called for 3oz on the outside lip only. How can two balancer's call for a 2oz difference? And it read the 5 oz as being OK? So now I'm skeptical of the balancer. Not very accurate. Or it read the piezo and found a different solution to the harmonics with the same result.

2) Looks like the Alcoas have at least 10 thousandths of runout. I was told that is OK. We remounted the wheels with the high spot "up" so to further use the slack in the hub to minimize the runout. Thoughtful, but not terribly sceintific. Despite my request, they hit 'em with a 1" impact. Not a torque wrench in the truck shop!

3) Heard from two separate people (not employees) while the Goodyear rep was "away", that the only way to make a MD stop shaking is Michelin.

4) During the trip, at 50 mph and especially in a long, high-load turn, there is a lateral vector to the persistent vibration. It is down right awkward in a turn. I was looking at the hash marks on the speedo and they were definitely moving left to right. It still shakes violently at 70, with and without a load...8k trailer...empty. The vibration at 60 is gone mostly, but comes and goes.

5) I can feel the steering wheel pass through zero "and tighten up" on a gradual right turn. I wonder how the steering wheel shift has affected the turns to the left and turns to the right? I also wonder if the "slop" is compounding the lateral vibration while turning-- at the speed, load of a cloverleaf.

Weight definitely makes the Kodiak more behaved. I agree with those who claim this. But I've got 2.5 days tied up into making this stop shaking and still no result, with and without the load. It's awful. I mean it. If you try to talk to someone while driving, it's like you're getting a fist-pounding massage.

6) Oh, the trailer brake controller. It's not progressive like a Prodigy. Comes on and stays at the set level. I had to turn it all the way down to drive in a rural setting; The trailer was trying to stop the Kodiak before I was applying any real pedal pressure. It was set on "2" max. Am I missing something, or is this Draw-tite unit bad? All it has is a manual slider and gain knob and NO documentation from Monroe.

I don't know what to do next. Get GM to put a set of Michelins on it, and make an adjustable drag link, and buy a Prodigy? And then start all over with the shop visits and build the Kodiak the way it should have been built?

[murphyslaw]

Met the Goodyear representative today. I thought this was going to be the silver bullet. I was planning my first 600 mile trip with towing (same day) and was pushing it pretty close. The intended use of the truck is to pull 4 horses in a 8k trailer and pull a double car hauler. It pulled the empty horse trailer today. To concentrate on defects:

1) OE right front tire got replaced, as it had 65 thousandths of radial runout. He was not comfortable with it. The left had 40 thousandths-- less than 70 is within spec. He was not concerned with the tread lateral jog. He tried to reseat the bead to make it go away. No change. It got rebalanced up front. They checked it first with the GM MD dealer weights, and the balancer read "0"s. It had about 5-6 oz a piece, divided inside and out. They took off the weights...made a mess of the Aluminum incidentally... and the balancer called for 3oz on the outside lip only. How can two balancer's call for a 2oz difference? And it read the 5 oz as being OK? So now I'm skeptical of the balancer. Not very accurate. Or it read the piezo and found a different solution to the harmonics with the same result.

It matters on whether they were both dynamic balancers or static balancers. my machine will do both. if I balance a tire on one setting and spin it on another it will some times tell me its not right.(yet to have one come back for shaking) It is also possible that the dude running one of the two machines didn't know how and messed up the settings, properly running a balancer isnt as simple as most people would thing. also once a year COATS(mfg) comes in and calibrates both of my machines, when was the last time theres was looked over? I love Michelin's(but I am partial since they underwrote my store) But I push them all Toyo's BFG's Good Years Yokohama's ext.

2) Looks like the Alcoas have at least 10 thousandths of runout. I was told that is OK. We remounted the wheels with the high spot "up" so to further use the slack in the hub to minimize the runout. Thoughtful, but not terribly sceintific. Despite my request, they hit 'em with a 1" impact. Not a torque wrench in the truck shop! Yeah that is about right.

3) Heard from two separate people (not employees) while the Goodyear rep was "away", that the only way to make a MD stop shaking is Michelin. That is all I will run on my service trucks(two 5500's and one international)

4) During the trip, at 50 mph and especially in a long, high-load turn, there is a lateral vector to the persistent vibration. It is down right awkward in a turn. I was looking at the hash marks on the speedo and they were definitely moving left to right. It still shakes violently at 70, with and without a load...8k trailer...empty. The vibration at 60 is gone mostly, but comes and goes.

5) I can feel the steering wheel pass through zero "and tighten up" on a gradual right turn. I wonder how the steering wheel shift has affected the turns to the left and turns to the right? I also wonder if the "slop" is compounding the lateral vibration while turning-- at the speed, load of a cloverleaf.

Weight definitely makes the Kodiak more behaved. I agree with those who claim this. But I've got 2.5 days tied up into making this stop shaking and still no result, with and without the load. It's awful. I mean it. If you try to talk to someone while driving, it's like you're getting a fist-pounding massage. these trucks when unloaded are a killer on the back, they only soften up a bit at full load.

6) Oh, the trailer brake controller. It's not progressive like a Prodigy. Comes on and stays at the set level. I had to turn it all the way down to drive in a rural setting; The trailer was trying to stop the Kodiak before I was applying any real pedal pressure. It was set on "2" max. Am I missing something, or is this Draw-tite unit bad? All it has is a manual slider and gain knob and NO documentation from Monroe.

I don't know what to do next. Get GM to put a set of Michelins on it, and make an adjustable drag link, and buy a Prodigy? And then start all over with the shop visits and build the Kodiak the way it should have been built? I think I would return it and get one that has not been lowered, seems that most of the problems are stemming from that modification.

I would recommend the Michelin XDE M&S retreads for the drive axle. they are a great tire, awesome tread patters will go good in the mud and snow and handle well on the road. For the steers I would go with Michelin XZA-1B's or Yokohama RY023

[Mark Rinker]

My '04 C4500 had Michelins all the way around when I bought it with 20K miles.

Wonder if the previous owner had upgraded from the Goodyears already? Or could the Michelins have come OEM factory in 2004?

[Braveheart]

Options S4L and R4L are Michelins.

My truck is brand new and has the Premium Goodyear Highway tire option.

[Mark Rinker]

Checked the visor code list and it came from the factory with Michelins. At 70K, the rears are about 35% remaining and steers about 50%. I plan to run larger diameter rear rubber to reduce cruise RPMs by 15% and am considering a swap from duals to super singles.

From re-reading your thread, I would conclude that the Monroe lowering kit is very suspect. Ever driven one without?

[Braveheart]

So here's the word from ZF engineering/Sachs:

Moving the steering wheel as a solution to the drag link geometry change upon lowering a Kodiak creates two problems.

1) Steering range different left to right--determined by release valve or wheel stops, regardless, it changes.

2) Steering feel becomes loose, as the steering gear is out of it's sweet spot--tightest tolerence.

Best solution is changing the drag link. Next best is changing the pitman angle. Changing the pitman angle creates another smaller problem for rate and effort, but much less noticable.

Remember all of this is happening in the background of Monroe denying me an alignment.

[murphyslaw]

Just another example or why lowered rigs suck


even if you replace the draglink with a smaller one to get the wheel centered you will not have the turning radius as stock, as the steering box will limit out before it has moved the pitman arm a sufficient length for push/pull to move the wheel fully.

[Braveheart]

I don't think that is true, and I'm getting off topic. But when the drag link is nearly level, the end of the pitman arm is moving the knuckle in a 1:1 relationship. If the gear moves the pitman end 6 inches, it's going to move the knuckle 6 inches regardless of the drag link length. If the pitman was changing length, then the range would change, but that is not the case in Monroe's build.

I'll concur that the shorter drag link may move the knuckle ever so slightly less at the extreme throw, because its angle may change more acutely there and in effect appply less longitudinal movement, but it would be minimal. They chose the least messy way to get the steering wheel centered and left it at that. If it ended up between splines, like in my case, Monroe just left if off-center.

Anyway, it's not engineered like it should be. Simply put.

[Mark Rinker]

'Off topic' around here isn't when someone offers up a differing opinion - its when you are talking about Medium Duty Quality Problems and somebody starts contemplating the benefits/drawbacks of bio-diesel. :D

How did your first haul go with the new rig?

[Braveheart]

The first tow went OK--not great. One problem got worse: the lateral vibration at 50. The ride improved somewhat and the confidence behind the wheel reinforced why I got a MD. I still think the steering is a bit sloppy, and I'm still mystified with the Activator II Drawtite unit. I looked for a ramp feature and could only find a gain control. There was no happy medium with it. Nothing like my old prodigy.

But I also dug deeper into the front steering issues:

I found out from Monroe yesterday that GM's engineers assisted with the development of the "So-Low" suspension. GM informed them at development that: the steering geometry changes induced by the lowering were negligible. Monroe was suprised to hear that ZF (steering gear) disagreed. The 50 or so degrees that the wheel changes means the gear has changed position--it' simple and it's bad. Monroe is going to verify their information from GM and call me back. (Monroe also said that if I did not have an after-market steering wheel that they did not move it. This is untrue, and is not consistent with the information that I got elsewhere at Monroe. My wheel stamp is no longer on center, so they did move it.) I really cannot believe they were unable to provide me test data showing that were actually thinking about it and measuring the effect THEMSELVES.

To see how that equates in steering performance while turning, I discovered that my truck has one-half more wheel turn capability in one direction. This in not negligible. It also behaves differently, both in sound and feel at the extreme. I will see how that translates in turning radius when the weather improves. That means it is over-running on one direction.

So make that quality complaint #12 for me...data to come.

For those that are counting: GM and Monroe are about tied on the responsibility for my 12 quality and design issues. GM's problems are about fixed and Monroe's are going to be difficult, because there are inherent design issues.

[DmaxMaverick]

On the Drawtite A-II controller, there is a timer ramp adjustment on the left side, near the screw mounting hole (toward the driver). It's a tiny slider button. Depress the brake and move the button a tiny bit (while stationary, or you can adjust it while moving, but reduce the gain so you aren't applying the brakes hard during the adjustment, then reset the gain after the adjustment for testing). The number display should change, and you can adjust the value. Let off the pedal, and press it again, the ramp rate should change according to the rate you set. They take some getting used to, but are pretty good once you do. I have one, and prefer it over the Tekonsha controllers. The only better controllers, IMO, are the older direct pressure line controllers, like the KH's, or the electronics that connect to the brake pedal linkage.

The Drawtite A-II controller has the same internals as some of the Reese models, with a different label.

[Duramaster]

Have you had the tires balanced ON THE VEHICLE? Or on a tire balance machine? Was it a ROAD FORCE type balancer? Is this truck a 4WD model? I forgot if you had posted that and there is too much to read here now.

[Braveheart]

Tires have been balanced off the truck only. It is 2wd. Supposedly the first time around, they were done on a Hunter "road force." The second time it was a Coats basic.

[Duramaster]

Does anyone in your area have the "TECHNOLOGY" :::snicker::: to balance the front tires on the vehicle?

[Braveheart]

Rear axle was balanced today. Required at least 2 oz per wheel on the Hunter Road Force. The vibration at 65 is solved, I think. Traffic was heavy during the test. Lateral shake at 50 mph still present (worse with payload and lateral load), but very subtle in a straight line. May be the Goodyears; may be the steering play...

Monroe still has not owned up to the responsibility of the steering issues, and is still denying the alignment reimbursement. The Gen Mngr. has not followed up. I have no idea how I'm going to make that right if they don't see the error in the design. They should have designed and installed a shorter drag link, and performed an alignment starting from a centered steering gear. No one has disputed this fact outside of Monroe.

A full half-turn difference (L to R) in the wheel range and a steering gear 1/4 rotation off-center is not acceptable.

Anyone with a non-lowered Kodiak care to measure the steering turns to the left of center and right of center? Lowered Kodiak owners please verify too.

I've got 2.5+ left and 2 turns right.

The other Kodiak pickup like mine was still at the shop today, but no one would check the steering. The owner has left it there, disgruntled.

[Mark Rinker]

Have you spoken with the owner of the other truck?

[Braveheart]

I don't know what confidentiality exists, but they are hesitant to divulge owner info. The mechanic was more than happy to tell me that the owner did not like driving his rig, and that they have fixed many of the same issues, and that he was in no hurry to get it back.

[Mark Rinker]

Is it a Monroe conversion as well?

[Braveheart]

Truck says Monroe on it.

I have also spent some time doing some trig on the steering geometry. It looks like the pitman arm was displaced by about .230" during lowering which equates to about 1.4 degrees of steering gear output shaft movement to keep the wheels going straight.

I also just got an email from ZF engineering. Here is what I know:

1) the steering gear has hydraulic limiters which are set one-time only when the steering wheel is turned to its axle stops. If you change the pitman arm range, you have to replace the self-adjusting limiters and then reset them. If you don't set them, the gear will run full hydraulic assist into the axle stops and who knows where that energy is going. For me that would be on right-hand turns. Monroe did not reset them.

2) the gear also has a self-centering feature. So , when you take your hands off the wheel or in a bump-steer situation the wheel wants to come back to straight ahead. If your gear is 45 degrees off like mine, the truck will naturally pull opposite the direction of the displacement.

3) The gear has it's absolute most sensitive "feel" by having its tightest tolerances at "zero."

The solution: I think there is enough play in the gear mounting bolts to get 1.4 degress of rotation and get the steering gear back where it belongs. If that is not enough, there is probably enough play in the shackles or axle to move the gear the rest of the way.

Monroe asserts that GM told them that the changes from lowering were trivial, as I said before. I am working on a solution that Monroe can implement for everyone.

It would be interesting to see where other's gears are centered at the steering wheel. If you have a factory non-airbag steering wheel, just work your fingers under the horn pad and it comes off shockingly easy. Just four rubber posts hold it down using friction. Note whether your rig is lowered or not and where the chisel mark on the steering shaft is in relation to the steering wheel's center.

My bet is that the lowered Monroe rigs will have the mark to the left of the wheel. My bet is that non-lowered rigs will have a steering shaft pretty close to straight ahead. .

[Duramaster]

If I think about it Braveheart, I will try and take the time to compare steering wheel revolutions from center to stop and even stop to stop if you would like.

[Braveheart]

Because the pitman arm is not perpendicular to the drag link, the arm has to rotate more on left turns than on right. There might be some further geometry at the knuckle that is in play. Anyway I think you'll find about 2.3 turns left and 2.1 right if the suspension is stock.

If I can verify when that chisel strike is placed during Assembly, it will save me taking off my steering shaft to find the steering gear's center. I think it is a safe assumption to say that it reflects the steering gear center though.

Looking under the pad for the strike and seeing how that compares to the steering wheel is the best way to determine if it is centered, unless the strike means something else.

[Braveheart]

Note the steering wheel chisel strike about 45 degrees left of center.

643

Note the arrow in the plastic dust shield and the fat arrow cast into the gear housing.

644

This causes three difficulties: 1) the gear's "return to center" function is constantly trying to turn the truck to the right. If you doubt this, take your hands off the wheel. This makes you work harder to keep the truck straight. 2) in a bump steer situation, it may amplify one vector 3) the gear is looser anytime you are off zero, making you work harder again to keep it in a straight line. It could be soooo much better if this was in line.

[Braveheart]

So, I've got the major problems narrowed down to some wheel waddle and the steering gear.

I had the chance to examine the other Kodiak with So-Low and his steering gear is displaced by the same amount. I've heard from others with stock trucks that their gears are mostly centered, and the lowered rigs are "off". But it would be nice to hear some data here.

If you don't think this is a problem, take you hands off the wheel if the gear is not centered, and see which way the truck wants to turn.

The word from the gear manufacturer is that the gear needs to be centered for best driveability and that the steering limiters should be replaced if the pitman range was changed---like when lowered.

Monroe is currently working on a fix, but I think they are still in the data collection mode. If you've got a C4500, check your gear and post it!

More data can only help. I'm sure that by now they are watching this.

[murphyslaw]

I will check both of my 5500's and my 6500 tomorrow, it can only help right

[Braveheart]

Well I'm pretty close to wrapping up my saga with this new truck. The dealer has been less than helpful and has renigged on his offer to pay for the initial alignment and tire swap. So I've resigned myself to eating $125 and a lot of fuel.

I have also come to the determination that the Goodyear G647RSS's are have enough lateral runout that they are inducing the remaining vibration which is worse with a load on the rear. I can see the tread blocks waving left to right in the side view mirror. That's bad, right? The dealer has voiced that he will look into the horrible factory fisheye repairs, the leaking seat, and the oil which was 15 months old at delivery, but I'll have to drive 450 miles to get him to do it. He's probably betting that I won't.

The front Goodyear to Michelin swap which resulted in a better ride and reduced vibration, and unfortunately, demolished rims still has a remaining to do list....Raben tire thinks they can polish out the deep gouges that their tire man left in my brand new Alcoa's, so I'll have to drive 100 miles to see what comes of that. I cannot remember if I posted pics of that.

Monroe has agreed to look at the rear axle and fine tune the airbags, as well as repeat the wheel balance. They helped me find a solution to the steering gear issue, among others. I cannot say enough about how they stepped up during all of this. They put the dealer network to shame.

Please keep this thread going as it will continue awareness for those to come. Regards.

[Mark Rinker]

Glad to hear you are getting the the end of your driveability issues/concerns. In conclusion - how many of your issues were due to the conversion and how much were straight from the factory?

[Braveheart]

I tallied up the problems once and found it to be darn close to 50/50. The GM ones turned out to be much much more difficult to remedy. Monroe was at least very interested in making their issues right.

Chip

[mudevil]

I tallied up the problems once and found it to be darn close to 50/50. The GM ones turned out to be much much more difficult to remedy. Monroe was at least very interested in making their issues right.

Chip
This truck has been awesome. I have had only one issue with my truck and it was Monroe related and GM said they will fix it with no questions asked. Maybe you need to get a dealer that will work with GM and you a little better.

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk8/jkispert/100_0075.jpg

[More Power]

Awesome truck! Welcome to the BB...

Jim

[Braveheart]

A couple of months ago, I closed the office and drove the 450 miles to Flint to let Monroe work on the airbag alignment, the remaining vibration issues and to help repair the rusting trim plate under the rear gate. Those guys were very gracious. They replaced the U-bolts on the bag on the driver's side, but could not get it exactly vertical. They showed me that the final bag alignment was the best they could do and that it was "in tolerance" for the bag. I believe them...as I've looked at other trucks with so-low...the bags are also leaning a bit.

The engineers rode with me to a local tire dealer who replaced another G647RSS on the rear...which had a bead that was never seated at GM. They double checked the alignment and balanced everything again. The manager there and the engineers at Monroe said that UPS or some outfit had given up on this particular GM tire because they had sidewall consistency issues. I begged them to take the new GY's back against 4 Michelins. No luck. At $300 a pop, I wasn't going to spend $1200 to fix GM and Goodyear's issues.

Unfortunately, the ride home was another exercise in avoiding 65 mph. Put a trailer on it at that speed...and it is undriveable.

Almost home, I also noticed that the fuel filler doors were resting on the torx fasteners and not the rubber stops. They were banging the body and chipping paint off the fuel door and truck all the way home. I have sinced removed a couple of shims to get them on the rubbers, but the bed vibration is to great, and the fuel doors are still getting out to kiss the body. Crap!

So 900 miles later...very expensive fuel bills...a hotel stay...I haven't gotten anywhere with the disabling vibration. All I can say is that it is worse on old asphalt roads and much better on concrete. I was going to alternate letting air out of rear tires to see if I could make it go away by partially deflating a rear. \\\

I'll say it again...Monroe should be admired for taking this time to work on GM's issues. They sent me a bottle of touch up for the fuel doors, but I have much more work to do.

The GM dealer is ignoring my emails and never paid for the alignment and tire swap that he promised to pay for.

And they wonder why they are in trouble.

[Mark Rinker]

Maybe a Ford F-550 is in your future. They have an interior fit and finish closer to their light duty line. Ride quality unknown.

It does sound like there are some issues with third party upfitting the Kodiak - especially if you start messing with the suspension. All mine got was a lightweight aluminum flatbed and headache rack.

It still rides like a tank, but hauls the freight so I don't really care. 124K miles and counting...

[mudevil]

A couple of months ago, I closed the office and drove the 450 miles to Flint to let Monroe work on the airbag alignment, the remaining vibration issues and to help repair the rusting trim plate under the rear gate. Those guys were very gracious. They replaced the U-bolts on the bag on the driver's side, but could not get it exactly vertical. They showed me that the final bag alignment was the best they could do and that it was "in tolerance" for the bag. I believe them...as I've looked at other trucks with so-low...the bags are also leaning a bit.

The engineers rode with me to a local tire dealer who replaced another G647RSS on the rear...which had a bead that was never seated at GM. They double checked the alignment and balanced everything again. The manager there and the engineers at Monroe said that UPS or some outfit had given up on this particular GM tire because they had sidewall consistency issues. I begged them to take the new GY's back against 4 Michelins. No luck. At $300 a pop, I wasn't going to spend $1200 to fix GM and Goodyear's issues.

Unfortunately, the ride home was another exercise in avoiding 65 mph. Put a trailer on it at that speed...and it is undriveable.

Almost home, I also noticed that the fuel filler doors were resting on the torx fasteners and not the rubber stops. They were banging the body and chipping paint off the fuel door and truck all the way home. I have sinced removed a couple of shims to get them on the rubbers, but the bed vibration is to great, and the fuel doors are still getting out to kiss the body. Crap!

So 900 miles later...very expensive fuel bills...a hotel stay...I haven't gotten anywhere with the disabling vibration. All I can say is that it is worse on old asphalt roads and much better on concrete. I was going to alternate letting air out of rear tires to see if I could make it go away by partially deflating a rear. \\\

I'll say it again...Monroe should be admired for taking this time to work on GM's issues. They sent me a bottle of touch up for the fuel doors, but I have much more work to do.

The GM dealer is ignoring my emails and never paid for the alignment and tire swap that he promised to pay for.

And they wonder why they are in trouble.


I don't know why you continue to bash GM for Monroe and Goodyears problems. They should give you touch up paint for the fuel doors considering it is their issue not GM. The box sides and everything attached to them are Monroes responsibility not GM. Tires are warrentied seperate from the vehicle warrenty, so try and get a Goodyear dealer to warrenty them. I own one of these trucks so I know who is responsible for what. If your going to be a GM hater go some where else to do it .