Injection pump gear nut

[joe bleaux]

I have the GM 4 vol. set of manuals for my '98, 6.5td but no where do I find the torque value to install the funny-shaped nut on i.p stud/bolt. The three small bolts require 30 ft. lbs.

Does anyone know what this value is?

Thanks

Joe

[joe bleaux]

BUMP...As I am putting it back together today.:D

THANKS

[Robyn]

Not sure which nut you are talking about. The gear has 3 bolts holding it on. (Use blue locktite on these)

The only other fasteners you need to worry about are the three that hold the IP to the engine (In the valley) 30-40 ftlb "Tight with a end wrench"
There are no other "Funny" Nuts

Robyn

[joe bleaux]

Thanks, Robyn.

There is a 'funny nut':D that came off of the injection pump stud/bolt. I call if 'funny' because it has lobes on it. I will take a picture and post it and hope I have a comment from you soon. Otherwise, I am just going to put it back together with the nut tightened with blue Loctite, too.

The other three are already installed with 'blue'.

Joe


Not sure which nut you are talking about. The gear has 3 bolts holding it on. (Use blue locktite on these)

The only other fasteners you need to worry about are the three that hold the IP to the engine (In the valley) 30-40 ftlb "Tight with a end wrench"
There are no other "Funny" Nuts

Robyn

[joe bleaux]

Here are two pictures, Robyn.

Whoops, they didn't upload. Probably too big. Will try again.


Joe


Thanks, Robyn.

There is a 'funny nut':D that came off of the injection pump stud/bolt. I call if 'funny' because it has lobes on it. I will take a picture and post it and hope I have a comment from you soon. Otherwise, I am just going to put it back together with the nut tightened with blue Loctite, too.

The other three are already installed with 'blue'.

Joe

[joe bleaux]

trying pix again

[joe bleaux]

Blurred - too close. Same nut.

[More Power]

That nut is not serviceable by either the dealership or an individual. It is installed and torqued when the injection pump is manufactured or rebuilt. There is no need to remove it to R&R an injection pump. The peaks of the hex are rounded to allow it to slide through the hole in the gear. :)

Jim

[joe bleaux]

Thanks, Jim.

The fog clears, thanks to you.

Well, I not only removed it but I have re-installed it with 'blue'. I torqued it to about forty pounds but that is probably not enough. What say? I am just about to close access to it with the w.p. backing plate.

Joe


That nut is not serviceable by either the dealership or an individual. It is installed and torqued when the injection pump is manufactured or rebuilt. There is no need to remove it to R&R an injection pump. The peaks of the hex are rounded to allow it to slide through the hole in the gear. :)

Jim

[joe bleaux]

My last was a dumb question. The nut is not holding the gear on so, off it comes.

Joe


Thanks, Jim.

The fog clears, thanks to you.

Well, I not only removed it but I have re-installed it with 'blue'. I torqued it to about forty pounds but that is probably not enough. What say? I am just about to close access to it with the w.p. backing plate.

Joe

[DmaxMaverick]

Are you being serious? (sorry, just had to ask)

If you are referring to the same input shaft nut, it has to be there, and properly torqued. It's been a long time since I've been that far into a pump (overhaul), but IIRC, the torque is around 150 lb/ft, and it's staked. A clamping jig that attaches to the shaft (internally) is required. If the nut is off, your gear flange will wobble off, destroying the pump and possibly several internal engine components.

You need to remove the pump and take it to a Stanadyne shop to have the nut properly installed. Trying to torque the nut in place will likely cause significant pump damage. It wasn't meant to be removed. Even a rebuilder won't remove it unless the input shaft has to be removed.

[joe bleaux]

Serious about what? If keeping the nut and lock washer off of the i.p. shaft then, no. I looked again and I now think that the i.p. pump gear WILL NOT PASS THROUGH THE HOLE IN THE GEAR. So, I put it back on with 'blue' and torqued it.

Now, the flange didn't turn during this miasma as the gear is on and locked/meshed into the camshaft gear which is further meshed with the other gears/chains. My initial scribe marks on this flange/t.c. housing are dead on the mark.

Are we on the same page? I am not 'INTO' the pump.

Joe





Are you being serious? (sorry, just had to ask)

If you are referring to the same input shaft nut, it has to be there, and properly torqued. It's been a long time since I've been that far into a pump (overhaul), but IIRC, the torque is around 150 lb/ft, and it's staked. A clamping jig that attaches to the shaft (internally) is required. If the nut is off, your gear flange will wobble off, destroying the pump and possibly several internal engine components.

You need to remove the pump and take it to a Stanadyne shop to have the nut properly installed. Trying to torque the nut in place will likely cause significant pump damage. It wasn't meant to be removed. Even a rebuilder won't remove it unless the input shaft has to be removed.

[rameye]

DMAX is spot on....

The nut will pass thru the gear..look at the photo you posted...not only does the nut pass thru the gear...but the gear appears to sit on a shoulder as well.

Probably not good if you removed this "lobed nut" I personally wouldn't fire up the truck at this point...and I do a lot of risky stuff.

How did you remove the Ip in the first place if the "lobed nut" doesnt pass thru the gear??

interesting

[joe bleaux]

Things are getting confused about this. I never removed the pump.

Joe



DMAX is spot on....

The nut will pass thru the gear..look at the photo you posted...not only does the nut pass thru the gear...but the gear appears to sit on a shoulder as well.

Probably not good if you removed this "lobed nut" I personally wouldn't fire up the truck at this point...and I do a lot of risky stuff.

How did you remove the Ip in the first place if the "lobed nut" doesnt pass thru the gear??

interesting

[DmaxMaverick]

I'm amazed you were able to get the nut loose. What did you use to hold the shaft? The gear?

The problem is, if the nut loosens, it will allow the adapter (part the gear bolts to) to wobble loose and destroy the input shaft, and likely scatter some parts into the timing set and pan. The nut must be properly torqued, holding the shaft, not the adapter. Torquing against the adapter may have rotated the shaft, shearing the key. Although, I doubt it did with as little torque you applied. It will probably loosen and then shear the key. I'd be very uneasy running the pump as is.

[joe bleaux]

Dmax,

Yes, I used the gear to hold the shaft. I took alot of pictures. Now, I wish that I had taken more. I also wish my memory was better as I swear that the gear would not come off without removing the nut. Probably mistaken, however.

Joe






I'm amazed you were able to get the nut loose. What did you use to hold the shaft? The gear?

The problem is, if the nut loosens, it will allow the adapter (part the gear bolts to) to wobble loose and destroy the input shaft, and likely scatter some parts into the timing set and pan. The nut must be properly torqued, holding the shaft, not the adapter. Torquing against the adapter may have rotated the shaft, shearing the key. Although, I doubt it did with as little torque you applied. It will probably loosen and then shear the key. I'd be very uneasy running the pump as is.

[joe bleaux]

Well, let's put the cart before the horse and assume that I screwed up by removing/re-installing the 'nut'. Is there such a thing as a 'normal' charge for a pump rebuild? I think it would be foolish to have a Stanadyne center to put the nut back on without rebuilding the pump?

Open to suggestions, as usual.

Joe


I'm amazed you were able to get the nut loose. What did you use to hold the shaft? The gear?

The problem is, if the nut loosens, it will allow the adapter (part the gear bolts to) to wobble loose and destroy the input shaft, and likely scatter some parts into the timing set and pan. The nut must be properly torqued, holding the shaft, not the adapter. Torquing against the adapter may have rotated the shaft, shearing the key. Although, I doubt it did with as little torque you applied. It will probably loosen and then shear the key. I'd be very uneasy running the pump as is.

[rameye]

I can tell of my experience that the answer is pretty much...no..

In order to test the pump to verify everything is to spec...they have to dismantle and go thru it ....bottom line was that a verification test was 200 bucks less than a rebuild.

That was my experience only....the tech I was using wouldn't sign off on the pump unless it was done correctly $$$$

If you dig around you'll probably get a second opinion..

[john8662]

IIRC the nut was pretty tight. I received a good DS4 pump cheap off ebay once and it was missing the nut. So I just took one off a known bad DS4 and it was pretty tight. I was able to remove the nut by intalling a pump drive gear and clamping it into a vice (the gear, yes, it was donated to the cause). Removed and re-installed. I tightened the nut the same tightness that the one of the bad pump took to remove (if that makes sense). I'd say about 45 ft. lbs.

Perhaps calling a pump shop and explaining the situation will net you the information (spec) you're looking for.

J

[joe bleaux]

Okay, Rameye. I appreciate that information. I would have guessed that a diesel i.p. shop could have put your pump on a fixture and measured input/output easily and cheaply but as I said, I am guessing.

I asked Dmax about one rebuilding their own i.p. but he said that one needs lots of specialized equipment although, he didn't say what stuff was needed.

Thanks

Joe



I can tell of my experience that the answer is pretty much...no..

In order to test the pump to verify everything is to spec...they have to dismantle and go thru it ....bottom line was that a verification test was 200 bucks less than a rebuild.

That was my experience only....the tech I was using wouldn't sign off on the pump unless it was done correctly $$$$

If you dig around you'll probably get a second opinion..

[joe bleaux]

John,

Now your experience is much like mine. The only difference that I can see is that you intalled the nut with a sacrificial gear clamped in a vise. Mine was intalled with the gear meshed with all the other gears meaning that the i.p. flange would not turn and allowed me to install it without the shaft of the i.p. not turning.

If you have read along, this has made several people comment negatively about this procedure. So, naturally, I am interested in your results.

Is it working okay and approximately how many miles do you have on the pump since you put the nut on?

Thank you.

Joe


IIRC the nut was pretty tight. I received a good DS4 pump cheap off ebay once and it was missing the nut. So I just took one off a known bad DS4 and it was pretty tight. I was able to remove the nut by intalling a pump drive gear and clamping it into a vice (the gear, yes, it was donated to the cause). Removed and re-installed. I tightened the nut the same tightness that the one of the bad pump took to remove (if that makes sense). I'd say about 45 ft. lbs.

Perhaps calling a pump shop and explaining the situation will net you the information (spec) you're looking for.

J

[DmaxMaverick]

It seems you are going to throw caution to the wind and go forward. Realistically, I can't say I'd do it different if I were in the same situation. The issue here is, what I recommend is not always what I actually do. I (or TDP) won't be responsible for your equipment, so I have to suggest safe solutions. That said, I would do what you have done, and run it. However, I cannot recommend this action. It's your truck, and pumps (let alone, engines) aren't cheap. Proceed at your own risk. If/when you get it started, watch it carefully. If at any time your event timing won't stabilize and/or the PCM has a fit, suspect the pump is out of calibration. I can't say it won't work, and may run fine for 200K miles. Or, it may crap out in a minute, hour, or week. I usually have pretty good luck with "shadetree" stuff, but most folks don't. I take risks I will not suggest to others. But, it's my stuff at stake, and me doing it.

[joe bleaux]

DMAX,

I appreciate your viewpoints and rationale.

I haven't yet made up my mind on what I am going to do other than call a Stanadyne station and discuss the matter with them.

In way too many cases, with many items, suppliers/service orgs., will use a customer's ignorance to suggest a procedure that will lighten the customer's wallet while fattening theirs, when their course of action may not be necessary, as most of us know.



I like to get opinions of all stripes when I am ignorant on a subject and then weigh them when deciding which way to jump.

Thanks

Joe


It seems you are going to throw caution to the wind and go forward. Realistically, I can't say I'd do it different if I were in the same situation. The issue here is, what I recommend is not always what I actually do. I (or TDP) won't be responsible for your equipment, so I have to suggest safe solutions. That said, I would do what you have done, and run it. However, I cannot recommend this action. It's your truck, and pumps (let alone, engines) aren't cheap. Proceed at your own risk. If/when you get it started, watch it carefully. If at any time your event timing won't stabilize and/or the PCM has a fit, suspect the pump is out of calibration. I can't say it won't work, and may run fine for 200K miles. Or, it may crap out in a minute, hour, or week. I usually have pretty good luck with "shadetree" stuff, but most folks don't. I take risks I will not suggest to others. But, it's my stuff at stake, and me doing it.

[john8662]

Is it working okay and approximately how many miles do you have on the pump since you put the nut on?

I ran that pump for a very short amount of time, basically I had used it has a test pump in place of the existing injection pump. During that time (approximatly 400 miles) it ran just fine, the same as the pump that came off previously.

I still vote for run it, but the points above are certainly vailid as to the function of the device.

J

[DickWells]

:)Joe: Give me a ring on 802 760 7054 ,or send me an E-Mail with your pnone number to dwells@pshift.com and I'll give you a number to call. I've forgoten how to PM on here!:o
Tell this guy what you did, and I'm pretty sure he'll give you the right poop. He's the guy who put my mechanical pump together for me and he knows these pumps in and out.

Dick Wells

[joe bleaux]

Thanks for the offer, Dick.

I will do that tomorrow and am anxious to learn more.

Talk with you then. Is during the day okay?

Joe


:)Joe: Give me a ring on 802 760 7054 ,or send me an E-Mail with your pnone number to dwells@pshift.com and I'll give you a number to call. I've forgoten how to PM on here!:o
Tell this guy what you did, and I'm pretty sure he'll give you the right poop. He's the guy who put my mechanical pump together for me and he knows these pumps in and out.

Dick Wells

[joe bleaux]

Btw, Dick, you just click my name in the upper left of the message window and it will open up a drop-down menu that gives you the option of sending a private message.

Joe

[joe bleaux]

FIRST, Dick, if you are reading this, I am sorry but I forgot all about taking you up on your kind offer. I will, though.

I talked with two Stanadyne Authorized Service Centers and they both told me that one does NOT need to remove the "funny nut":D in order to replace the gear ( I didn't remember correctly). The interesting part is that they said that no damage was done by removing or re-installing the nut.
In fact, they told me to use blue ( I did ) and torque to forty or 45 lbs. ( I did ).

So, I am feeling good about this nutty problem. P.I.

Thanks for everyone's help on this.