Uh oh. Biodiesel.

[2tough2park]

The East Coast is FINALLY converting over to Pay-at the-Pump INCLUDING (you sitting down) the tractor trailer pumps. Kick asss!!! Since they are essentially down for the last month and a couple more weeks, I decided to grab a few gallons of expensive diesel at the local Shell. It's the only station around me that actually LABELS the sign out front that the green stuff is BioDiesel. So, in it went. I can't tell a difference. I count that as a good thing. I was a bit leary, especially at $3.49 a gallon, but I needed a few and wasn't in the mood to drive around looking for cheap fuel(turns out the local to me Valero and local to me 7-Eleven(go figure) were priced more in line with expectations. DIC usually tells me between 15-16.5 around town, less when there's lots of traffic and so far DIC has nothing new to say. Would I go Bio again? Yea. But not for that price. Just thought I'd share.

[tufcj]

When I lived in Denver, the local Sapp Bros. truck stop sold B20 (20% bio). It was about $.02-.03 higher than regular diesel, but my 2003 ran a bit quieter, got a little better mileage, and the exhaust smelled better. I always filled up there when I was close. No ill effects that I could tell.

Bob
tufcj

[Mark Rinker]

I ran at least 100 gallons of B20 this last trip to Florida. Since I tend to run the tank nearly empty before fueling, some good comparisons can be made as to mileage, power, etc. Mileage was same, power same, and it did seem like the truck ran a bit quieter/less diesel rattle under acceleration.

No complaints here.

[93GMCSierra]

The pattern here though is that bio costs more, which does not make sense, its much cheaper to produce.

[linchhummmer]

i ran biodiesel in my truck for a while i thought that it lost a little power. i saw a few months ago in diesel power an injector pump that was eaten up from some bad bio. i would make sure that you buy good fuel

[2tough2park]

i ran biodiesel in my truck for a while i thought that it lost a little power. i saw a few months ago in diesel power an injector pump that was eaten up from some bad bio. i would make sure that you buy good fuel

That's why I bought from a name brand filler(Shell). I GUESS I can trust them. hahaha
No ill effects here either so far although East Coast is almost done with the new pumps so I'll be back to "inexpensive" diesel. I know the truckers will be happy.
Never ran Bio in my 94, only in this one. Plus, the ten gallons I bought had so mix with 15 or so gallons of incumbant fuel. But, knock on wood, the truck drove to Lowe's and back the same as always. I'll have to run by that Shell again and see with percent mix it is.

[93GMCSierra]

All things considered Bio should be much better for your truck then ULSD because the new fuel does not lubricate like it should, and bio has great lubricity and I have heard conflicting stories about the power of bio verses diesel, well from my understanding if you got yourself some old sulfur diesel you might have a power difference, but LSD and ULSD have less power then most bio's.

[DocRobbs]

I have a question for the guys getting bad biodiesel. What’s the source?

There are many variations in the chemical processes to convert vegetable oils (and some animal fats) to FAME (Fatty Acid Methyl Esters or Biodiesel). A lot of home brew designs use NaOH or KOH and methanol or ethanol. Most larger commercial producers use an acid esterification process first and then alkali as a final production. This results in a better more consistent FAME. It is more complex and requires more consumables and thus is utilized in less home brew designs.

As biodiesel is being used in more high pressure rail systems and newer diesels it needs to be the highest quality. A quick look at the posts here clearly confirms this.

I wonder if some of the folks having problems have gotten fuel with incomplete esterification. Around here there is only homebrew (not very well done, OK for the tractor) or good B20 about an hour away.

I started designing and building my system but I don't have a good consistent source of WVO. A friend wanted to plant a crop for oil extraction and conversion but that seems to long way to go for the small consumer/farmer.

There are guys making systems for better biodiesels, search for the "foolproof method of making biodiesel"

[convert2diesel]

Be careful with the information on the Journey to Forever site. Much of the info has been shown to be flawed. A better source for the information you need is the infopop site:

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751

Acid estrification is only needed if you are using high FFA oil (well used french fry oil) and then it still needs the base stage. Learn to do the titrations and pick your oil carefully. Many have been able to achieve ASTM standards using their own processors. You just have to invest the time and be patient. Certainly not a quick make it and forget it project.

By the way, the concensus in the community is that the JTF "Fool Proof" method has been re-named the "Fuel Proof" method. You can do an acid/base system if your oil source is bad but the base only method is much easier and more likely to produce good fuel...just have to pick your WVO carefully. If you are using virgin feedstock, there is absolutely no reason to use acid.

Bill

[DocRobbs]

Looks like a lot of folks are having trouble getting the acid esterification part to work right.

I'm still wondering if soem of the problems folks are having with Biodiesel is related to the qulaity of the WVO to start with.

Thats whats delayed me (plus I just don't have all the time to get this project completed). Thw WVO I can easily get my hands on is very low quality.

[morgan]

Spinx fuel stations in SC do B20 right. I've used it exclusively in both of my diesels for as long as it has been available. All good comments are what I've experienced too. Smoother, good power, better smell.

[GARTHGMC]

Wow,
good info. I ve been lurking on bio threads now for a while. Heck thats why I bought my LMM. But I be damned if Im going to throw backyard bio in her.
The standards for bio should be nationalized. Anybody have a clue when?
All this tech stuff has kinda thrown me from makin it myself:(
There are about a kazillion restaurants where I could get WVO. Who's good and bad? Chinese food, Italian,? Keep postin;)

[mschuyler]

The pattern here though is that bio costs more, which does not make sense, its much cheaper to produce.

No, it's not. The feedstock prices have gone up because of demand the same way corn prices have gone up because of ethanol. The process to "make" Bio-D may or may not be cheaper, but the key ingredient price is subject to supply & demand. That's why commercial Bio is not doing so well right now. My supplier just went out of business. Regulat diesel is cira $3.40. At $4.40 per gallon for bio, he could not compete.

[93GMCSierra]

the fact the prices went up seems pure greed, they were doing fine with prices before and this way its more needed thus a better cash flow, but if the price goes too high it kills interest thus its a short lived demand.

[Freightliner3]

Here in Minnesota we have had nothing but problems with a 2 percent bio blend when it gets below zero.The fuel conditioners don't work like they did before.I buy a 6 pack of fuel filters all to often.Worse yet our Governor wants to go B20 in a few years.I sure hope they fix the gelling problem soon.

[93GMCSierra]

what type of anti gel are you running? I have heard power services the white bottle still works decently, however veggie oil has slightly different properties then diesel thus the ones made for diesel do not work, but they do make some that do work on veggie, standyne has one but I dont know the name.

[convert2diesel]

what type of anti gel are you running? I have heard power services the white bottle still works decently, however veggie oil has slightly different properties then diesel thus the ones made for diesel do not work, but they do make some that do work on veggie, standyne has one but I dont know the name.

The problem with a product designed for diesel fuel, is that the gelling characteristics of bio is different then for conventional fuel, thus it needs a different approach.

Conventional fuel antigel products are designed to keep the parifins (wax) from precipitating out of the fuel and to keep the particle size small enough to pass through a filter. Once it hits the heat of the IP then the wax melts and no longer poses a problem. You can observe this by taking a sample of #2 and putting it into the freezer. At a certain point, you can clearly see the wax crystals floating around in the fuel. As you continue to cool the fuel, these crystals get more numerous and larger in size. If you run that through a fuel filter, the wax will very quickly plug up the filter.

Bio-diesel on the other hand is made up of fatty acid, methyl esters (FAME) and contains no parafins. As the temperature drops, the fatty acid components start to coagulate and eventually bind together forming a co-hesive mass and if cooled sufficiently leave you with a tank full of butter. Doing the above mentioned gel test will result first in the fuel becoming cloudy. As the fuel continues to cool, very quickly, this cloudy fuel starts to thicken up as more and more of the coagulants bond together to form a co-hesive mass. The only solution is to add heat or mix with sufficient solvent (#2 or #1) to allow this fuel to pass through the filter to the engine.

The problem with trying to find a chemical solution is that the original feedstock is directly effecting the gel point of the finished fuel and that the transition from liquid to gel is very fast (usually within 10degrees). For instance, if your bio is made from palm oil, you will have this problem even in the southern states on a cool morning while fuel made from rape seed oil (canola) will not start to gel till about 28 degrees. The process of making bio-diesel will lower the gel point by about 10 degrees but once again, different feedstocks react differently.

There are a number of companies that are trying to address this problem, but to date there is nothing commercially available, to my knowledge, that works. It is coming but for now, keep it warm and diluted.

Bill

[a5150nut]

Extreme 4X4 show just did a rock crawler that runs on veggie oil and they installed a hot water heating system to keep the fuel flowing. Might be an alternative.

[2tough2park]

Yea, I'm all too familiar with the variations in biodiesel, since after all I own a diesel truck. The stuff at Shell is Quarles 10%. Sticker right in front of me. Had it been a girl, I would have gotton slapped. Can't see how I missed it the first time. hahahaa
I've run by there at least twice to date with no problems so feel comfortable with running up to B10 at least. If I'm in a position where I only have B20 or above, I'll make sure to get it from a brand name, regardless of price. I understand, though, from my readings, that the B20's and up are USUALLY ok as the big brand names do refine it well, it's just getting a universal standard for them all to agree on for determining universal product quality is the hard part.
East Coast finished their conversion. Back to the cheap stuff.

[a5150nut]

Yea, I'm all too familiar with the variations in biodiesel, since after all I own a diesel truck. The stuff at Shell is Quarles 10%. Sticker right in front of me. Had it been a girl, I would have gotton slapped. Can't see how I missed it the first time. hahahaa


Thats all right Randee. everybody can get a case of Spotsilvania once in a while. Just take a dose of Manassas to clear it up. Just be careful not to take to much or you will get the Dumfries from it! :eek::D:D

I'll be in your neck of the woods next month. My mother in law has some things around the house she needs fixed.

[radracing]

Last summer I ran some bio about 3 tanks full. and my fuel filter got pluged up. I had it changed and ran ok. I went back to regular diesel and about 5 tanks and the fuel filter was fine. so in Denver are we getting dirty fuel and the bio cleaned up the system?
In Denver Diesel is running about 3.95 and bio is about 4.49. why is bio so much more?
I would like to try Bio again but not at that price.

[2tough2park]

Last summer I ran some bio about 3 tanks full. and my fuel filter got pluged up. I had it changed and ran ok. I went back to regular diesel and about 5 tanks and the fuel filter was fine. so in Denver are we getting dirty fuel and the bio cleaned up the system?
In Denver Diesel is running about 3.95 and bio is about 4.49. why is bio so much more?
I would like to try Bio again but not at that price.

I just filled up with East Coast cheap stuff for $3.87. Mean price over the region(Stafford, Spottsy, Caroline) is about $3.91. The Shell has the B10 priced at $3.94, right in line with the "normal" diesel. Actually, I'm a bit surprised it's as cheap as the normal stuff, unless the normal stuff is actually B10 and nobody else advertises it as biodiesel. The Shell(US95 and Route 3) is the only place I've seen so far that plainly lists Biodiesel on their outside sign. If only the pumps were easier to get to.