Crossover pipe boltz.... AAAAAAAAAAAck!

[StephenA]

HELLLLLLP!!!

Can anyone help me or point me to anything on TDP which would cover removing the bolts which fasten the crossover pipe clamps to the manifold?

I've just successfully installed new Kennedy quick heats, hi flow nozzles and a 4911 rebuilt by Tim Wagner and my 92 is running like champ! -But my new crossover pipe from SS Diesel Supply is being held hostage by frozen fasteners which seem forever determined to hold in place my stock crossover -which has a hole in it at the driver's side flange! Not so great for boost!!

I hate to have to remove the manifolds just to handle 6 stubborn bolts! I've tried days of penetrating oil & the old heating method followed by parrafin (together with long prayers and finally cursing a blue streak)...

Welding a socket or wrench on in tight quarters next to fuel lines makes me nervous, as well as does the idea of breaking off bolts.

There's got to be an easier way, short of voodoo, to reliably extract these fasteners!!!

Anyone?

Thanks,
Steve

[Tough Guy]

Drill thoses bad boys out and get some new bolts!


Chris

[Hubert]

Uhhgg, tough luck. Sounds like you have covered most average DIYer stuff.

Might try one of those mechanical impact tools that you see for screws. You hit it and it unloosens the screw. I have seen them with a 3/8 drive. Use a 6pt socket and put something hard in the socket so its bottomed out on the bolt head. The shock of impact and loosening force at the same time might unstick it. I have seen the tool at homedepot for under $50 I think. Don't hit it with a sledge but work up to a good wack.

IIRC I think you can get to it with a few extensions. I cant' remember if I had to use swivels or not a wobble extension may be requied.

Are you using air tools? If an impact gun aint getting it done the above might not work.

Still not free I'd take it to a good muffler shop (not a midas with kids working a job) and ask what they would charge. Be up front with the stuck bolt(s). Talk to them and see what they say. If they are willing tell them to try a few things but if they have to pull the manifold to leave it if you want to save that expense. With the truck on a lift they might be able to get to it better. And if you are not using air tools that might be all thats required.

[adamcortell]

Steve, you are not the only one cursing those bolts. I tried all of the above and then ended up breaking off one of the driver's side bolts. So I went out and bought an impact wrench (wanted to get one anyway) and it didn't break them loose. Then I gave up before I did any more damage. How do your get at them to drill them out and how much of a PITA is that?? How would the "pros" at shop get them out?

[Tough Guy]

Lift the front end a bit, use jack stands/blocks....

Then sawzall the pipe up as close to the flange as possible and drill out the bolts or use a torch.

If you take it to a shop, there's no telling what they might ruin getting them out.

My $.02

Chris

[Kennedy]

The only way that they will ever come out is if you heat the manifold around the bolt glowing orange with a torch.

Trick is to NOT start the truck on fire and get the bolts out while it still glows.

[NH2112]

Heat & quench is really the only way to free up bolts like that. Heat them red-hot then douse them with water, the expand/contract cycle will free them up. As long as you don't hold the torch directly on a fuel line you shouldn't have a problem.

[tom.mcinerney]

if you take/cut a piece of sheet steel/tin/galv smokepipe bend it to cover the areas to be protected from heat...it will dramatically cut down the heat transfer. In the case of a fuel line, i'd disconnect one end, and drape some cotton cloth saturated with water (old jeans) then cover that with the shield you've made.

Once you've broken one bolt , may as well pull manifold and deliver to machine shop if you don't love doing that yourself. I does pay to refit with new OEM (or better) alloy fastenings. The high quality steels used in these are vastly superior to the stuff found on , say, my '73 C-10.

[StephenA]

Many, many thanks to all for the great replies!

I was unable to get back on line until this evening. As suggested, I bought a Craftsman impact hand tool, impact sockets and bolt extractors. Stuffing the sockets so they bottom out on the head sounds like a great idea, too. Also, shielding with sheet metal and heating/quenching and finally heating the manifold orange-glow hot sounds like the ultimate fix, if I don't get anywhere with less heat & the impact hand tool. I have been alternating between hand tools and a Dewalt electric impact (which is much gentler than my air impact tools) in the hopes of trying to avoid breaking off the bolts. Tomorrow I'll try specific bolt heat, as hot as I can get it without heating the manifold, in the hope that my manifold will stay relatively cool & the temp difference between the two will help break the bond. Then maybe the hand impact can do the trick. If not, I expect I'll be heating the manifold up orange-glow hot as JK suggested, after shielding the heck out of everything.

By the way, JK's quick heats and high flow nozzles are really making a vast improvement on my truck, along with Tim Wagner's rebuild on an ebay 4911 pump! Can't recommend these guys enough. After the crossover pipe (knock wood), it's idler timing gears and & water pump, together with Heath's Balanz Flow cooling Mod. Then a gage package and Turbo Master... Can't wait to get these bolts out of the way!

Thanks again, all - news at 6!

Steve

[G. Gearloose]

I recommend going straight to JK's advice; no impact.

As the manifold cools and looses its glow the bolt will get harder to turn. Resist the tempation to give it one last 1/2 turn...reapply heat then resume.

[diesel lover]

Hi guy. Recently had to reomove heads from my '95 6.5 TD. Same issue as you have w/ crossover pipe. Tried a product called 3in1 hi-performance penetrent. ;) Stuff works real good. Spray on, wait a while spray again, take bolts off. Because I was gonna be working on this a while, several applications spanning a day or so before actually breaking the bolts. If this doesn't work, I'm afraid hot, hot red hot redface.gif heat is the best solution. Wish you well.

[NH2112]

My experience is that you get best results by heating both the bolt/stud and item it's threaded into, then do your best to quench only the bolt/stud. This results in the bolt hole still being expanded from the heat and the bolt/stud contracted to normal size after quenching. You may want to just pull the manifold anyway, it shouldn't be too hard to get out with the engine in chassis (mine wasn't, anyway.) This will eliminate the need to shield anything from torch heat and give you all the room you need to work. Make sure to chase the threads after you get the studs out, and like G. Gearloose said once the stud gets hard to turn heat it again or you may end up breaking the manifold ear off.

[BobND]

I work on a lot of "old iron", and read quite a few message boards pertaining to old engines, and cast iron parts.

The general concenses I have seen, and often used, is heat the part AND the bolt red hot, allow it to cool enough to safely put penetrant on it, continue to allow it to cool, to ambient, and then repeat a time or two.

I would NEVER try to loosen a faster when it was HOT.

It may move, but once it sticks and galls, you're screwed.

Repeating the heating cycle, and wrenching on the fastener only when it's cooled to ambient is a much safer bet.

The expansion and contraction cycle will break the parts loose, and allow the bolt to come out when cool without sticking and galling.

[More Power]

I had to deal with this exact problem a few years ago on our 1994 Blazer. Here's what I did...

Soak them with a liberal application of rust penetrant, then let it sit overnight.

Try to crack each nut loose slightly, then alternately tighten then loosen each nut, over and over till the nuts can be removed. Rust and particles will build into the threads, and will result in twisted off studs if you try to take the nuts all the way off without the tighten/loosen approach.

Running a a die onto the exposed threads might help as well.

Good luck,

[StephenA]

I am always amazed at the many valuable viewpoints to be found on TDP! -Probably the main reason I love working on my 6.5.

All the data offered obviously reflects many learned and successful experiences and everyone's input is greatly appreciated by myself.

It's snowing heavily right now at my place at 10k here in the Rockies and I am using this as an excuse to put these doggone bolts off until tomorrow.

Just for kicks, I thought I'd try an electronics can of freeze spray -after heating- to cool just the bolt, as suggested. Maybe I can find the right penetrating oil this afternoon. -Maybe I'll end up trying every single different solution offered - that's a heck of alot better than not even having a clue on an approach! Thanks everyone!

-It will be interesting to discover which approach finally nails it!!!

Steve

[BobND]

I would hesitate to use rapid cooling. Cast iron cracks when rapidly cooled.

The slow-but-sure method of heating it up, allowing it to cool to ambient with "magic juice" or bee's wax applied, and repeating is less likely to crack the manifold, gall or strip the threads, or cause the bolt to break off in place than any of the other methods.

Be there and done that. Also, I grew up around my Uncle, who was an amateur blacksmith, and a good friend of a REAL blacksmith, who had emigrated from Sweden. This was one of the smithy's tricks, learned by my Uncle, and passed on to me! Give the old Swede some metal, and he could make about anything!

[RT]

I swear by a product called Kroil or AeroKroil. Several times it has loosened/penetrated threads that I could not break loose and some so corroded that I wouldn't have believed it. It works. RT

[Kennedy]

Originally posted by G. Gearloose:
I recommend going straight to JK's advice; no impact.

As the manifold cools and looses its glow the bolt will get harder to turn. Resist the tempation to give it one last 1/2 turn...reapply heat then resume. Exactly! When ready they will turn easily...

[nathan71]

I remember growing up as a kid and always having aerokroil around. My dad is a machinist and swore by it, but he says the formula available today is no where near as effective as it was years ago.

[bdv]

If it goes long enough the rust becomes like a weld. I also had to replace my cross over. Was able to get 4 of the six bolts off. As you can guess two broke. I was able to cut flush with electric saw. I then drilled out. I was going to re-tap holes but was too tight. So I picked up a nut and bolt combination to put in. You have to be sure and check the space and alignment around the flanges on BOTH ends BEFORE you drill holes. If not you will have problems lining up nut-bolt-flange (there will not be enough room for the nut or bolt head, as it will hit the pipe). I also replaced all the bolts, nuts, washers with Stainless Steel to avoid same problem in the future if I have to take off again.

Hope this helps, good luck. Brent

[autocrosser]

If you use stainless steel as suggested by one member be sure to use hi temp anti sieze on them. Stainless will gald sometimes and then break off due to having less strength than regular steel bolts.

Stainless phillips or slotted head screws are bad about the slots screwing up or breaking off when you put pressure on them if they are hard to get out. I use them on my boat all the time but keep the anti sieze handy when assembling. a reputable fastener distributor will usually warn you about that.