A 605 block, no outer main bolts. YES [Archive]

simon

11-25-2007, 23:11

I will probably get some serious flak about this thing i did, and maybe not.

I have in my possesion a 605 block that sports no outer bolt holes for the 3 center main caps. Other than that it is identical to stock in all demensions, but is about 17 lbs heavier.
I had this block special ordered via a contact in china, after closely examening a chinese made 605 block i had seen earlier in the year.
As far as I can tell this block is as good as stock, but with no outer bolt holes it has got to be stronger than stock. a prime candidate for splays i would think,altough I have something better in mind i am working on
I also had a piece of metal analized by a local foundry for chemical content.I found the chinese material tougher to cut than the stock block.

I had been searching for a long time with no luck to find me a block for a affordable price to build my ratmotor with. Stock blocks seem to fragile with the webcracking, and an AMG block is not avalable for the foreseeable future, and I can't afford the whole engine. That is wy i went this route.

There has been some dialog about this no hole feature on this site a while ago.

What do you think folkes. Surely Robyn will have some remarks

I would like to know how to make pics smaller so i can post a few.

Robyn

11-26-2007, 09:00

Well I see my name mentioned :eek:

Hmmmmm we have been down this road before and beat the subject a lot.

IMHO AMG should be making the new blocks available to the marketplace so the owners of previously built GM trucks and Hummers can update their equpment.
Offering only complete engines is simply greed and nothing more.

They most likely are going to says its because they dont want a black eye with all the backyard techs building whatever and the resultant issues that could be the outcome.

Sorry, its greeeeeeeeeeeeeed.
There are so many back yard techs out there that can engineer these big companies into the ground. Just look at some of the very unique and wondeful things that spring forth from little garages.

Now as far as the china blocks go. IMO China did not spawn these things. Some enterprising US based concern is doing their foundry work over seas because they cant do it here for a price that is cost effective plus the fact that AMG will probably be right there with a truckload of attorneys to make their life misserable.

My feeling on the overseas stuff is as follows.
Im terribly sad that we cant seem to do anything in the US any more thats worth much.
The big auto makers are bleeding out at a horific rate.
I just hate the thought of seeing the market flooded with stuff that may or may not be of good quality.

Now I have seen a couple of these blocks so far, one very recently.
They look great, the finish is sweet.
I have not had a chance to get seriously intimate with one and lay some mic's on it and check dimentions carefully.

I am going to venture a guess that these blocks are probably better that the stuff we were getting from GM during the Hayday of production on the 6.5 (95-99)

I have not even seen a new AMG block. The hype is that they are a real piece of work and all the previous issues have been fixed.

Well as far as Im concerned this is just HYPE at this point.
We have no track record to prove this one way or another.
The original 6.2 and 6.5 engines have accumulated multiple millions of miles on the road and the stats are living proof of what can and does happen.

Some dont even get out of the starting gate, some run 200-300K without a hitch.
Some blocks cracked, some cranks broke, some heads crack badly some dont.

I have an original 94 599 block that went 240K from the factory. I rebuilt it with new bearings, rings, and a few other goodies including a set of aftermarket heads (Probably china made)
and its back up and runs sweet.

This material thats coming in from abroad may be great stuff it may be junk. There is simply no track record yet to look at.

You have it, bolt it together and get the little monster up and running and keep track of it and let us know any and all little issues you have.

I will not throw stones at something that is unproven either way.

As consumers we have very little choice now as far as replacement blocks, cranks and heads go.

I personally would like to try a china block, clearwater heads and a Scat steel crank. Fit this all out with the remainder of the parts from a stock engine and then take the little creature out and toture it unmercifully to see what it could take.

I mean torture too. Set the pump on kill and or real hot chip in the ECM and boost it to about 12 PSI or more if aftercooled and just beat the living daylights out of it under some nasty conditions.
Tow a heavy trailer across some of the nastiest Hwy's around.

The grapevine in SOCAL is a good torture for anything in the summer.

Hey this is about all I can say as far as these blocks and stuff go.
Have fun and enjoy.
Keep us posted on how it all goes together and works.

One point I might offer. If you use it as a daily driver I dont see that unless there are some serious flaws or conversely some very grand improvements that you will see any change in this engine from the vast majority of 6.5's that are out there plying the highways and biways now.

As Jim has pointed out and many others, the people who come here and cry about their broken this or that are the only ones we hear about.
People dont come to message boards to brag about how good their this or that is.
The only time we hear about a 6.5 is when its broke.

Good luck and have a load of fun with your project.

OH do us a favor and paint is Cat Yellow :D It looks so kewl and keeps the Ford and Dodge crowd real nervous especially when ya hang some Cat mud flaps on the back. :rolleyes:

Robyn

Robyn

11-26-2007, 09:09

Just a side note

We still do not know exactly what is causing the 6.5 failures that have been seen over the years.
There is much speculation and theories running around but no real concrete proof as to why the blocks and cranks are failing.

The incidence of these failures is still sporatic so the smoking gun if you will just is not there.

If we had some real good concrete proof on why the failures occur then we could really analyze any and all new products.

IF GM had done some very serious real time torture testing on this engine family before they went to production many of the issues would never have slopped into the marketplace to be dealt with by us the end user.

Unfortunately the tests needed to really acertain why the 6.5 fails would be costly and there is no real reason to do it now. AMG is not going to spill the beans either me thinks.

I personally believe that with enough time the AMG engines will see some of the same failures pop up too.

Just a thought

Robyn

DmaxMaverick

11-26-2007, 10:59

605 block? Never heard of/seen one. 506, perhaps.

Try to keep this AMG/GEP engine thing in perspective. Those that do get their hands on one should consider themselves lucky, even if it can only be had as a long block. Don't fault GEP for not releasing components to the general public. Consider this....

AMG uses the 6.5's exclusively for the HMMWV's. The US military has contracted AMG to supply HMMWV's and support. The current (at that time) plan of GM was to discontinue the 6.5, leaving AMG without a solution to supply support engines. AMG contracted GEP to supply package unit long block engines for support of the HMMWV's currently in service and in the future, as well as AMG's obligation for supplying support and new units for other than mil-spec (which doesn't include the general public, unless you own a non mil-spec AMG product, which doesn't include Hummers). AMG supplies the military with the mil-spec long block engines, for support of failures, maintenance cycles, and upgrades. AMG and the mil-spec doesn't require individual components (nor have they contracted) from the foundry. The bottom line.....AMG took it upon themselves to create a specific market for mil-spec long blocks. GEP provides them, under contract. Any access to them by other than AMG and its obligations is a bonus. It is very likely (likely because I don't know otherwise), GEP cannot supply individual components, as they are contracted to provide only complete unit long blocks. We are the fortunate ones, in that GEP apparently is able to turn out more long blocks than contracted by AMG. The end result is they are available. They are expensive and supply is limited. We, the civilian/public consumer, are lucky to be able to get their excess production. They could shut us out completely and stockpile the overproduction. I'd bet their is a clause in the contract that allows public release of overproduction engines. GEP makes one 6.5 product--the long block, complete as it is. A supply of bare blocks would very likely require a contract they currently do not have. It is my forecast (fancy word for a guess) that once less troops, with their equipment, are no longer abroad, AMG's demand will decrease, making more available to the general public, as well as a likely price adjustment.

If someone, or a company, wanted something different than is currently supplied by AMG/GEP, they should seek negotiations and contract with the appropriate level, what they want. If bare blocks are wanted, it will have to be contracted. That is, if the current AMG/GEP contract would allow this. At the same time, there is nothing preventing another foundry from negotiating with AMG for the rights to produce these components. If we want this, someone is going to have to realize the market value of it and just do it. It won't be me, and as large as the market for 6.5's seems, it is very small compared to others, such as SBC's. A tough thing for sure, to get someone to invest in such an uncertain market. These days, especially.

Kennedy

11-26-2007, 14:02

I think that it's absolutely wrong to refer to any of these blocks by casting number. They are not 506, 605, or whatever and it just confuses the issue.

I would be curious to know what the raised cast numbers (The Julian date) are on the opposite flange?

Other than this, I think you have the right idea...

TAG

11-26-2007, 18:52

I agree with jk , I think all of the latest blocks say 506, whether it is gep built or a gm block.Ido think that no gm blocks were cast with the navistar logo in the valley as gm had sold the tooling to amg long before. It looks like amg did a redesign of the block & then had the navistar foundry cast them. I have no clue who did the casting in the years between. From what i understand, gep is a subsidiary of amg. Penninsular diesel had a relationship with gm for years ( decades?) before the sale of the 6.5 line. It sounds like penn & a few other marinizers were grandfathered in when gm shifted the production to amg. It also looks like amg is set up for military & wholsale only. If they start selling parts & engines to everybody, they will have to start dealing with sales tax & warranty with every tom dick & harry. I totally see their point.To buy a long block through penn is not much more expensive than some of the do it yourself builds I have followed on this forum. They do offer complete running engines that will make your heart skip a beat, but the longblock is not that bad, and it is all brand new from the gep plant.

TAG

11-26-2007, 19:08

Oh, and another theory while im ramblin, the blocks break & the cranks break because of that ocassional hiccup that so many of us experience. Think about the forces on the crank & mains every time that happens. If it feels that violent going through the powertrain at highway speeds, i can imagine how violent it is to the block & crank. I have noticed that all of the really high miles 6.5s I work on have the original injection pump. The ones that have had multiple pump replacements are the ones that end up cracking the block or crank. And another thing- I think the intermittent hiccup is from the fuel solenoid sticking in the pump, although I have recently found a connection with the crank sensor in my personal truck. Just my .02.

simon

11-27-2007, 23:37

oopsy here, it is a 506 block,not 605. i will check on casting #

it has the piston cooling jets.
the reason for trying this setup is to soup this engine up to get the most torque and hp out of it as i can, and i believe a stock block would not last to long in its standard configuration
i am working on a cast iron girdle that will include all main caps and panrail as one solid piece. that should stiffen it up a bit i would guess to hold the crank in line..

now what crank to use???

i wiil prob go with a mechanical pump to keep things simple. there is a lot to be decided yet.
it 'll be a slow process anyway, but will keep you posted as i progress.

It is not my plan to compete or go racing, but just want a solid strong engine to pull my 32' stocktrailer.

Other than that I knew Robyn would pipe in, a thanks to all others as well

micky_blue

11-28-2007, 06:38

just in case you don't know, scat does make a crank for the 6.5. it is not a forged steel unit, but it is hardened and according to their strength numbers I believe it is 20-30% stronger than stock.

micky

Robyn

11-28-2007, 08:01

simon

11-29-2007, 23:29

yes the scat crank is a cast steel unit.

They will also make a billet crank for about $3000. :eek:

I looked into the crank options some time go.
The buzzzzz word is that AMG will be offereing a forged steel crank at some point but I cant verify anything much.
If they follow their SOP any and all parts will only be available as a complete engine

The cast steel crank from scat should be a good deal. Be sure and ballance the thing though.

Check the journal sizes to make sure the bearing clearances are right.
I have seen some of the custom cranks come through at times with some hinky sizes ?????????/ :confused:

Good luck with the project.

I would figure about 300HP to be the top of the hill with an engine destined for a truck application.

If you are going to use it with a DB2 pump thats easy to do. A DS4 will be limited by the electronics and of course the pump stroke.

I am told that the DS4 will push 91mm3 max. Heath diesel claims their Chip will allow this amount of delivery.

Just some tidbits.

Too much power in a 6.5 truck application will end in heating issues.
The real high power stuff is done in boats where there is an endless supply of cooling water to keep the little rat from melting.

RobynThanks for the info Robyn, I know keeping the thing from melting is a concern. If need be i'll put a second rad in the box but i like that 400 hp , sounds soooo sweet.

who sells that scat crank, and at what price?? Maybe that one originates from china too??
I got also a chinese crank, said to be cast steel too, looks OK and measures acurate too.
But I am kind of scared to try that one , was only $200,- incl freight.

The billet will have to find another victem, i try not to spend over three grand on the whole project..

More later

simon

11-29-2007, 23:34

john8662

11-30-2007, 13:44

I didn't see it clearly mentioned but:

Are you going to splay the block or build it simply using the 2-bolt design in the center?

If leaving the bolt 2-bolt that would worry me a little as far as crankshaft life.

Ditto on the 3k for a Billet Crank from Scat. I can get them cheaper elsewhere.

I see that Robyn wrote a couple books up above, our TMI mod.

J

JohnC

11-30-2007, 14:51

I submit that casting numbers on blocks that were not made by GM or GEP are meaningless. No way the Chinese foundary duplicated the properties that make a 506 block unique. Like JK said, could be they put the same numbers on every block they make, regardless of whether the raw material came from a crushed Mercedes or a crushed Yugo...

Kennedy

12-03-2007, 07:29

Here are some #

B 170 on one side, 12555506 on the other, and J 30 above the oil filter mount.
i haven't a clue what they mean.

I'd hazard a guess that the block that they copied was built Feb 17 2000 :rolleyes:

Robyn

12-03-2007, 21:08

I am going to venture a guess here that running this block with two bolt center caps is not going to make a hill of beans as far as issues go.

Those two large bolts can more than hold the load and just very likely the lack of the outer two may very well keep things from breaking.

I would build it just as is if it were mine.

Just a thought without being too verbose. :D

Robyn

Kennedy

12-04-2007, 06:59

I think that if left alone it will twist itself apart in short order. The engineers at the GEP plant tour were very concerned that my splayed caps had a smooth surface so that the block can move independently of the cap. Yes I am serious and remember this correctly. My cap face is smooth, but not for that reason as it is my position that we need to minimize flex rather than promote flexibility...

Robyn

12-04-2007, 09:03

I will make this post, not for the purpose of disagreeing but to offer an idea that has been around for many many years.

Back when my dad and I were racing Blown gas drag boats my dad used to pop off with "If it aint moving somethings breaking"

The concept of building things rigid to the point that they cant flex at all is in my opinion a quick trip to destruction.

My take on the 4 bolt bottom end is that the bolts are not to stop the block from twisitng as it is to keep the rotating mass from coming out the bottom.

***Point of reference*** You can take a 2 bolt GM big block and make a huge mid range torque monster and drag hevy stuff all over creation with it and it will live forever. Now try and wind the RPM's to the moon and the 2 bolt unit will fail as in the bottom end will let go. Hence the use of 4 bolt mains.

The 6.5 does not generate enough force to drive the rotating mass out the the bottom. Having the 3 center mains with only 2 bolts in an engine that spins 3500 max RPM's is plenty to keep it together and happy.

The block of a 6.5 does not have a deep skirt and hence has very little structural resistance to twisiting.

The issue of twisitng though may very well be the issue that has plagued these engines but has yet to be proven.

The way that cracks propagate through the outer bolt holes and into the web does suggest this as a very good likelyhood.

If the new (2 Bolt) block has good beefy webs the deletion of the outer bolts will actually strengthen the area to a great degree and further will eliminate the stress risers that are the result of the drilling and tapping in an already weak web (stock block).

Had this engine been designed as a deep skirted block (Like the old Ford FE engines 352-428 series) with the main caps below the pain rail and the caps of the center 3 cross bolted with fitted spacers the issue that we see with the 6.5 would most likely have never occured.

The 6.2/6.5 engine simply has no structural rigidity in the bottom end and adding bolts is not going to give it any either.

The idea that the cap "Needs to move" is a tad flawed too as the cap is set into a register fit in the block so any and all possible movement of the cap on the block (side to side) is not going to happen.
Any twisting moment is totally tansfered to the block proper and if the block reaches a point of fatigue it will break.

The one thing that comes to mind is that without knowing exactly what the stress issues are in these blocks and when it is occuring we cant really ever solve the problem.

In building an item that is going to be under stress the stress must be allowed an avenue to escape. If the stress is bottled up with no place to go (Somethings moving) then eventually the item will fail.

By following a common practice of adding material, bolts ect to an area that is failing, many times the stress that was causing a particular point to fail will simply be vectored to another place and will cause a failure there.

I have seen this is Heavy truck trailers (Dump truck stuff) in that a frame will crack right at a gussett. The DOT boys insist that the crack be welded up and plates put on it to stop the crack.

The issue was not that it broke but why?? The frame needed to move and couldn't so it cracked to relieve the stress. After the fishplates and welding the original spot can no longer move bu the applied stress is still there. Now the stress vectors to another point an may cause a catastrophic failure.

So many trailer builders have gone to bolting the frames and stuff together as opposed to welding.

The 6.5 engine is no different, it has issues we know, but to date no body has come up with proof positive as to waht exactly is happening and why.

I still maintain that the 2 bolt block just may live longer simply because there is more material in the critical area that normally breaks.
The problem has not been eliminated but the weak spot (fuse) may have been removed so that the outlet for the stress is not there any more and the block can continue to flex as it needs to.

Again this post is not simply to argue any personal points of view but more to further the view into what is really happening.

Now I know that someone is going to take a shot at me on this one so go ahead and have at it.

Until we can get some good irrefutable proof as to what exactly is going on in these engines under operating conditions there is only speculation and theory.

best to all

Robyn

JohnC

12-04-2007, 09:31

As Louis Rukeyser was wont to say "At least one of you is wrong..."

;)

If you strengthen ALL the parts until the movement of each one is less than it's elastic limit, nothing will break. On the other hand, if you make the whole thing out of rubber, nothing will break either...

(Or maybe it should be "at least one of you is right?)

Robyn

12-04-2007, 09:52

:D
I will have to agree with that 100%
If and therein lies the big issue, If we knew where the destructive forces are coming from and from what direction they can be stopped or at least countered and vectored off harmlessly.
Until someone can get good data to support a theory then its all just speculation. :)

I personally dont think AMG/GEP could even tell you (if they even would) that they figured out what the issue is/was
Its a very complicated and evasive problem for sure.

The only way to solve such issues many times requires "stepping outside the box" and most mainstream engineers wont or are not aloowed to do that.

Great thread guys, maybe sooner or later the gremlin will be figured out.

Robyn

rustyk

12-04-2007, 21:30

Well I see my name mentioned :eek:
subject a lot.

IMHO AMG should be making the new blocks available to the marketplace so the owners of previously built GM trucks and Hummers can update their equpment.
Offering only complete engines is simply greed and nothing more.

Robyn

Missy Goodwrench: Here I depart from agreeing wth you. AMG did what needed to be done to strengthen the stock 6.5L block, which GM never did. IMHO, AMG has NO obligation to anyone to sell bare blocks to anyone. Now, I do have an AMG engine in my motorhome, and it's one helluva piece, but I wouldn't in any way object if AMG sold bare blocks to folks.

Frankly, it ain't greed - it's AMG's decision (at this moment in time). Greed would be if they offered their blocks at $5K. Again, IMHO.

And bare blocks would assume that AMG could make enough to satisfy its obligations for complete engines and short/long blocks and have some left over. But AMG doesn't cast those blocks...

Robyn

12-05-2007, 09:20

Rusty

I agree with some of what you say. ( the contract stuff)
The issue I take is that everytime we turn around the big boys sell us something that we end up having to go to the aftermarket or our own little shop to fix and get working right.
Then to add insult to injury when we need parts we take it in the shorts again and again and again.

I agree that AMG GEP does not have any obligation at this point to come along and diaper the mess that GM left behind.

The whole point is that it would be great business and outstanding PR to offer these blocks either through the GM parts or another outlet.

The sad thing here is that the idea of PR is so far from the minds of big business anymore.
The American way has changed from "Can do to Can screw"

Build a POS then phase it out in a few years and move on to another mess.

And the big boys wonder why their companies are bleeding out Billions.

I fully understand that these companies are trying to make a profit and today this can be hard to do but when the PR part of the equation is in place and the customer is placed at the top of the heap the rest will fall right into place. Then watch the $$$$$$$$$$ roll in.

I will most likely never own a new GEP engine especially at the prices they want.

And then folks wonder why the aftermarket is so eager to nibble around the edges and farm stuff off to a Chinese foundary and slip the stuff into the marketplace.

I personally take great pride in what we can do and can build in this country, the thing that pisses me off though is that the espree de corps is seemingly gone now and its all about $$$ and there does not seem to be much of that either.

They can call it contracts, obligations, or whatever they want, the issue is that if they wanted to make the "Good product " available they could do so easily.
This is the greatest country on the face of this earth and I believe that these companies could turn this stuff out by the metric buttload if they wanted to.
They could make enough 6.5 blocks to give one to every man woman and child for christmas and still keep up with the MIL demand.

I am being a little dramatic here as usual, but the idea is that "they dont want to" because they simply dont care about the little people market.

Bottom line here is that the behind the scenes folks here in this country that are bringing in these Chinese blocks are going to make a killing.

NOW "IF" and this is a biggy, IF the marketers take care of their customer base and the product is as good as it looks the market is theirs for the taking.

I dont think AMG/GEP cares and or will do anything to stop it either.
The quickest way to stop this would be to offer their product at a reasonable (Profitable) price and watch them fly out the door.

It will all settle out as time goes by for sure.

Being in business has taught me several things.
1-- Take care of your customers
2-- Make a good product
3-- Sell it at a good price that you can profit at but still affordable

Once you turn your back on the customer all bets are off.
I have managed to get more customers over they years by taking good care of them than any other means.

If the product sucks then no manner of service will ever save it.

GM never learned that (Ford, Mopar ect)
The boondoggles go one forever it seems.

There will always be goofs but most of the crap we see out there was not a goof but a calculated plan to make $$$$$$ and then move on.

Can we get this thing out the door and make money on it?
How big is the warranty loss going to be?
Can we make a good bottom line even after out projected losses?
How soon will we have to phase it out before the sales totally go away?

What a poor way to do business.:(

How about
Can we make a good product that will sell and make us money and keep our customers happy and coming back to buy more?
Can we keep our warranty losses to a very small percentage?
What can we do so our product will beat out the competition and pull their loyal followers into our camp?
What can we do to pollish our image and make our product stand head and shoulders above the competition.?

Now that we are making our stockholders a very good return on their investment can we possibly reduce the price of our product some while still maintaining an excellent quality product? :)

Its all about poor thinking and even poorer planning.
GM is loosing Billions as is Ford and Mopar

So many, may companies are literally sliding down the spiral.

Its just about planning is all.

Best stirring comments :)

Robyn

moondoggie

12-06-2007, 12:07

Good Day!

I read a book that at least partially explains what's wrong with American business. It's "What Is Total Quality Control The Japanese Way" by Kaoru Ishikawa (translated by David J. Lu). After WWII, Demming & others went to Japan. Unlike America (Detroit in particular), they actually listed to what he taught them; Ishikawa was a big player in the Total Quality Control movement in Japan. They have refined those lessons beyond this beginning point. This book is mostly as dry as a popcorn fart, & contains charts that I can't make myself understand.

If you can somehow survive until table IX-1, chapter IX "Quality Control for Subcontracting & Purchasing", you'll get the jist of it. Boiled down, it's this: Japanese manufacturers have been in close relationship with their vendors for decades. The variables that we see when we make stuff simply don't exist anymore for them. They don't inspect very much of anything because it's a waste of time.

How does this work? A hypothetical example: Toyota orders 300,000 fuel pumps for a series of engines. The machinist at the fuel pump company needs to turn a diameter in the casting. He occasionally checks a part, but not very often. Why? They've worked with the foundry for a couple decades, & whenever there's been a problem with the material, they fix it. They now simply don't have material problems anymore - they've been through them all & eliminated them. This makes the castings uniform to a degree an American cannot believe. Further, the same is true of the tool he / she's using to cut the diameter - after a couple decades getting their tools from the same outfit, the variables in the tools are all gone too. What does this add up to? It's pointless to spend time & $ inspecting these parts, beyond what the machinist does while he / she is standing there waiting for the next part to run - they know to a high degree exactly what their tool wear rate is, & how long it will last, because all the variables have been almost completely eliminated.

Japan almost never has engine troubles like the 6.2 / 6.5 (& a long list each of us can come up with, from various manufacturers). In America, it's a coincidence when all the engineering comes out right & we get a series of engines that last a long time (really, they should all outlast the vehicle they're in). Don't waste my time telling me about Japanese fiascos - I remember when Mazda sold only rotaries in their cars, & had to replace them all with 4 cylinders (which BTW is a clear example of superior customer service not often seen from American manufacturers).

Our little company is searching for, & finding a few, American manufacturers that can supply us this relationship & high level of quality. Can it happen here? I sure hope so, or my kids & their kids will be the servants of Asia.

BTW, I have owned 1 non-NAO vehicle, a 1978 Honda Accord. Other than this & a Horizon, ALL my vehicles have been GM. IMHO Japan doesn't play fair when it comes to trade, so I won't trade with them. But I'm not foolish enough to not learn the lessons that we can learn from them. It's indisputable: Toyota makes the best vehicles on earth, bar none. I won't own one, but I fully intend to take advantage of how they're doing what they're doing & help my company win.

Blessings!

More Power

12-06-2007, 13:08

It is so ethically and morally wrong to illegally copy a licensed and protected manufacturer's product and then sell it at a discount.... Whether or not AMG cares about the importation of counterfeit 6.5 engine components (I'm absolutely certain they do) is not a consideration here. Whether or not they care about the 6.5 civilian market (I'm absolutely certain they do) is also not a consideration. It's a matter of right and wrong.

AMG is entitled to profit from its investment. The 6.5 counterfeits should not be allowed into this country. It's no different than a competitor stealing your customer list, then using that list to undercut your business.

To fight the illegal counterfeits, it would take huge money, huge time and wading through an endless morass of international bureaucrats to stop, and it would never end. The counterfeiters would just change their name, find new shipping routes and locate new vendors willing to do their bidding.

Without consumers for counterfeited goods, there would be no counterfeiting. ;)

Jim

micky_blue

12-11-2007, 10:25

Jim -

I am going to argue with you for posterities sake. If AMG did care about their potential consumer like you theorize, they would supply the product a good number of people want. Since AMG refuses this service, the public is forced to look elsewhere, and that elsewhere is China. Consumers want a better casting for their diesels, and AMG has that. AMG also chooses not to offer that solution. I feel that as a consumer we have the right to want/demand items, and since AMG will not supply those items we have the right to look elsewhere because we are forced to do so.

The reason there is such a large counterfeit market for these parts is because AMG made it possible. If we could buy American made parts for a slightly higher price, i believe they would sell very well. There will always be counterfeit parts, but because of AMG's refusal to sell their parts they have created the boom in these counterfeit parts.

My father told me more than once, "Boy, if you want to be a millionaire, make people happy". Thats it. Windows operating system which is probably what most of us are using while we read this does just that. It can be twitchy, a pain, but for the most part it works very well and makes using a computer much simpler. Look what making people happy did for them. Starbucks is to expensive and it gets bashed regularly about their business practices, but people like the coffee and are willing to pay the premium because they can get the same cup of joe in Portland Maine or San Diego California. AMG could be making this market happy. They have the ability to do so, they choose not to so this is their problem.

just my $.02
micky

More Power

12-11-2007, 10:41

Everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. ;)

Jim

rustyk

12-11-2007, 18:10

If one wants an AMG engine, Peninsular Diesel can supply one. I priced a Jasper short block rebuild (which would have been of unknown heritage and "We only install splayed mains if it's necessary" and 20.5:1 compression) at $5K on the pallet.

The Peninsular Diesel AMG 6.5L came with 18:1 compression; I added the bigger turbo, new IP, hi-pop injectors, and the Phazer gearset. That engine delivered was around $9K. The performance improvement over the original early (599 Block) is spectacular, and the 15-20% better fuel economy (pushing 16K Lbs. of motorhome) was a welcome extra.

Since I'm not flitting around in a 4-5K lb pickup or 'Burb (I'd have had no problem going with the Jasper with the engine pulling that little weight), and since my motorhome gets used around 12-15K miles/year, the AMG was a no-brainer.

So AMG short blocks are available. I suspect there are three reasons AMG doesn't want to sell bare blocks:

The first is that they don't cast them inhouse; they buy them, but they do have all rights to the original design and their improvements. After the current production runs of HumVees ends, I still don't see them offering the bare blocks, for the second reason below.

Second, AMG would have no control over how the engines were assembled from bare blocks, and there would be little upside and plenty of downside if users started complaining - or suing due to failures.

Third, AMG bought the 6.5L rights and did the work necessary to make the engines right for the HumVees. They aren't a consumer-oriented company, because they never have viewed the Little Guy as the marketplace. Neither does General Dynamics (builder of the Abrams tank), nor Newport News Shipbuilding and Drydock concern itself with the average consumer.

As to the Chinese blocks, they're most assuredly in violation of patents and copyrights. I suspect most buyers will have cause to regret using them before too long. GM had problems getting them right; I can't conceive that the Chinese foundries will do any better.

Robyn

12-11-2007, 18:32

Well now I am going to play the devils advocate here and chase both sides against the middle.
There is a lot of good ideas here from many angles and no one person is wrong in my opinion (for whatever thats worth) :eek:

The big boys are going to go where the $$$$$$$$ are and right now that is the contracts from the military for Hummers and such.

The demand for blocks from the private sector is small and they dont care about small.

Now I will say this, the folks that are behind these blocks in my estimation are not the Chinese but some instead some smart little American good old boy that smells $$$$$$

IMHO the trail that leads from these cloned 6.5s is a torturous one that if it could be followed leads right back to the USA.

Now as has been said the $$$$ that it would take to sniff out and stop this supply of clones would be great and I am not sure that AMG GEP really gives much of a hoot as this is not stealing any of their bread and butter as it stands now.

Now lets just say that Toyota was to get a contract from our military for a superior off road vehicle that replaced the Hummer??????

Now I would bet the tables would be turned and AMG/GEP would take great interest in the civilian market if this would happen.

The Military already buys their sidearms (M92 Berretta) from other than US sources so a contract with Toyota could happen.

The marketplace is full of Cloned GM Rat motors and Mouse motors and Hemi's and heads and pistons and all sorts of other stuff to fix what the factories either could not or did not want to do. Or it was done to make it better or go faster.

I hate seeing what should be done here going over seas but when it can be had here, why not.

I see this whole thing as one that is self limiting and if AMG/GEP wants it stopped all they have to do is fill the void and the issue will disolve and go away.

Nobody here is way out in left field for sure. I see everyones point and they are all good ones BUTTTTTTTTTTTT the big boys have made their nest, now they are going to have to sleep in it.

The little people are going to nibble around the edges and get the crumbs.

As far as the stuff being good quality, Hmmmm Im betting that the new stuff coming in is no worse than we have had and probably a lot better.

later troops ****** ducks the incoming flak********* :D

Robyn

Hubert

12-11-2007, 19:54

I'd like to see your final product build up as I believe you are concocting an ambitious girdle assembly.
Good luck.

I uhhh am not sure there is any patent infringement here. The "art" and knowledge of the combustion engine technology is well saturated in public domain. Yes, copyright and trademark protection still applies to GEP/AMG and GM. I think you can reverse engineer most any engine and market it as competition but NO you can't claim ANY connection to the original company. In US a patent is only issued if no prior art can be claimed. And different countries the patent laws differ. I believe Japan for example will award a Patent to first applicant wether or not they invented it. US you have to document original conception of art. Chinese language probably doesn't even have a symbol for the word Patent. :-) China is kind of a bastard communist state it seems. Communism implies the govt owns all the Patents anyway doesn't it?

Patents are not meant to guarantee someone indefinate monopoly on a product. Aren't they only good for 7 or is it 15 years? After which you have to reapply with new improved art. The 6.2/6.5 is well over that age and or did not get any real art of improvment. Patents are suppose to provide someone protection to profit from development with out competion for a time but eventually do allow competion and ensure a free market. Nothing fuels improvements/economy/competition like a free market. Copyright are good as long as you can afford to beat back the copy cats with lawyers. Trademarks I think you have to every so often prove you are still using it and want it protected hence actively market the trademark. But if you ever drop I think protection can be lost.

Anyone want to venture the investiment to make the 6.5 block in quantities in the US and forcast the return on your money. I'll bet a nickle you are much better off in a 0.5% interest passbook saving account and a whole lot less liability and headache. Like metioned earlier it probably just isn't profitable for AMG/GEP to market the bare block with headache and liability of misassembly. GEP/AMG has the overhead to assemble these engines built into thier bottom line wether or not they do. So they choose to go ahead and assemble them for market. Although it doesn't seem fair its just business sense.

Robyn

12-12-2007, 09:48

Hubert

You are very close to the mark on patents and such.

The bridge too far would be if whoever is marketing these cloned blocks was using GM, AMG,GEP or Navistar logos and markings or such.

The use of trademarks is much easier to protect and enforce.

A cylinder block is pretty basic as you pointed out and there has been no real changes of substance in the art work of a V8 cylinder block in a whole lot of years..

Now AMG/GEP could easily market the 6500 Block as a bare unit and sidestep all the issues that would arise from the myriad mechanics out there that may have less than optimimal skills.

The unit could be sold with a Workmanship and materials warranty and no particular specific warranty, just like racing parts.
If you buy a High perf Merlin, Rodec or other piece there is little warranty waiting after you bolt this thing into your mudd buggy and scatter it all over the bog.

Now if upon tearing it down there apears a nasty flaw in the casting that let go, most manufactures honor this as a workmanship or materials issue and poof your set.

The 6500 blocks could easily be marketed this way with no sweat.
Sell it as a high performance part and there are really no issues.

I really dont have any real Knowledge of why the big companies do what they do other than the debacles and trail of broken parts they leave in their wake as they move on to new ideas and more sour notes for us to chew.

The track records speak for themselves and do so loudly.

There was mentioned the idea of Morality and Ethics as far as copying another companies products.

I respect each and everyones ideas here but let me say this,
With all the Jobs that have been taken away from hard working US workers and sent over seas so the big boys can try to make more $$$$$
where is the ethics and the morality.

Seems we have to fight fire with fire. Maybe two wrongs dont make a right but at least it puts parts in the warehouse that the little people like you and I can afford to buy and use.

I will go out on a limb here and speculate that maybe one day the big companies in this country will finally figure out that how they are doing business is why they are in many cases going broke.

If you or I were to start making cloned 6.5 blocks here in our backyard foundary ( Hmmm the EPA might notice, Ya think) :eek:

There is a good bet that it would not be long until a metric buttload of lawyers would be on us like a bad smell.

So we simply put together all our good ideas how to make our little cloned engine block better than the original, fly to China and set up a deal with an exisitng foundary or better yet we set up a small production line and train the locals to do our work for us.
We shuttle all the finished product through a wild and wierd routing of off shore distribution channels that ends up in the US in a sales warehouse that we can keep an eye on.

This is done all the time with thousands of products.

We just have to be sure that the blocks dont come with lead based paint on them and all will be well. :rolleyes:

We can even go one better, we can do all the finish machining here in the States to keep the quality where we want it.

This is probably how this is happening.

The story I got from one of the cylinder head vendors is that they import the raw castings and then do all the machining here and outfit the finished products with good remanufactured (used) valves, springs and such.

This keeps the machining tolerances where they want and the cost for the incidental parts cheap. You buy their heads and they pay the freight back to their plant on your old heads. The old ones are stripped and the castings sold for scrap and wow, what a lucrative buisness this turns into.

Good simple keep em happy and make money venture.
( I have heard that FedEx is using one of these suppliers but I cant confirm it)

I dont know if we can really fault any of this stuff as it is following the natural and logical series of events that will happen when there is a demand for a product.

A vacuum can not exist in our market place and if one forms it will not exist for long before someone fills it.

This scenario is very little different than the AR-15 rifle market. Colt held the patent for many years and monopolized the market. Finally the patents ran out and the natural flow of things saw many many companies making clones.
Colt tried in vain to stop this with law suits and they were for the most part tossed out of court. The only things they were allowed to protect was Logo's and trademark names and such.

The term AR-15 is a Colt property. Now my company makes and markets a clone of the AR-15 in a hybrid 50 caliber that I designed.
The rifle is basically the same old retread as all the myriad other clones with a few exceptions.
I market the rifle as a model CM-1500 and the Sub model is the 502 Thunder Sabre.

There have been many try and copy the little 50 caliber rifle but few have succeeded. Most burned up investors $$$$ and left a dirty trail behind with unhappy customers and poor service.

I will say this, our production numbers are not setting the world on fire but the customers are all happy campers and there is no trail of dirty deals or unhappy investors.

I wonder how the chinese 6.5 blocks compares to this scenario.
Dirty deals, unhappy investors, unhappy customers or did they do it right and have a plan to market a fairly good product that they are willing to stand behind. (Workmanship and materials is all I expect)

If the stuff would come with a 2-3 year 100000 mile warranty against defects in workmanship and materials I dont think anyone would bitch too much.
If they will last that long they will probably run a lot longer. :)

Best to all as this saga rolls on.

Robyn

TAG

12-12-2007, 18:09

OK Robyn, I cant take it any longer. You are obviously a woman, you seem to be a country girl, you are very well versed in 6.5 tech, you own a big rig with a 500 cat, you have raced drag boats and God knows what else, now I find out you design 50 cal rifles? Are you married?

DmaxMaverick

12-12-2007, 18:45

Hey!! Take a number!

JohnC

12-13-2007, 13:07

But she's a Ludite...

More Power

12-13-2007, 13:12

I suppose I'm a little closer to (or rather affected by) the problem of copying protected works than most people, which explains the position I have....

As far as I know, the Chinese 6.5 castings are not being marketed as Chinese copies of AMG's castings. They are being marketed as 6.5 heads or 6.5 blocks. The companies selling them don't indicate that fact in their ads. If they were being marketed as Merlin "Heavy-Duty" 6500 castings (or some such) and clearly stated that they were aftermarket parts made in China, I wouldn't have as big a problem with them. But, that's not what's happening. Except for those who have read about them here, people believe they are getting AMG parts.

If these castings begin failing, the uninformed owners will blame the 6.5, and they will blame AMG. At some point, we'll see another question being asked in bulletin boards when someone reports a head or block failure... "Is this a Chinese casting?" The people reporting the failure will likely say, "I dunno, I thought this was an AMG part."

Look at it from a marketing angle.... If I were to redesign the 6.5 block, I would have added a deep skirt and cross-bolted mains, and I would induction harden the cyl walls (like the Duramax). Then, I would rename the casting, and advertise the performance and durability advantage (after proof testing). I would own the civilian market for 6.5 blocks - whatever that might be.

Jim

Hubert

12-14-2007, 05:42

I was going to say something similar Jim after Robyn's post. AMG/GEP can only really market the more expensive long blocks as hi quality dependable replacements as long as their reputation is outstanding. Have a few failures of bare blocks for what ever reason and confidence will faulter and business will change is my guess. Its hard to say what overhead and profit margin is for AMG/GEP. You can't always break it down to individual parts and have an apples to apples comparison.

I'd defend the the China blocks more if they did have another name and unique trademarked casting logo's. And am not condoning selling them as "New style 6.5 AMG/GEP blocks". I believe everyone in racing understands and doesn't blame GM for Merlin, World, and other mfg'ed block failures.

I have worked in tooling and had competitors copy tools to the point of using the same part number except adding a digit. I have also reverse engineered a few pieces for big accounts and customers asking specifically for it. Its one thing to reverse engineer its another thing to copy. Since most dimensional tolerances on the block are published so mechanics can inspect for repair it gives an unfair advantage to knock off companies. Usually reverse engineering you don't know corresponding tolerances so it can be more difficult and you get what you pay for. The rest is up to service and quality.

Some customers will always go with the low cost items but most will follow the economy of quality/cost/service balance.

Robyn

12-14-2007, 11:18

OK I will weigh in again

I agree with Jim that if folks dont understand what they are buying that they may look to blame GEP/AMG or GM if one of these aftermarket blocks goes sour.

One needs to be informed before plunking down the bucko's $$$$$$$

The companies that are marketing the aftermarket stuff could easily make it known that they are selling clones but obviously choose not to for whatever reason.

My products have my company name on them, city and state of origin and a unique model and serial number.

The market is what the market does and we are not going to change it at all.
I for one will try different items that come up for sale. If I find it to be of good quality and worth looking at I will say so. If it is or apears to be junk, also I will say so.

My distaste and distrust of large companies has kept me always looking for a better solution to many problems.

Back in 1976 I bought a new Ford F250 4x4 and within a week I had the infamous 360 out on the floor and a 427 cammer stuffed in its place.
This should show beyond a shadow how I feel about warranty or whatever.

If its not right, we can make it right.

My view has always been, someone built it, I can fix it and maybe make it better. :D

The bottom line here is that the clones should probably be sold as such to protect the unwarry.
For sure after a few years the clones will be such that most folks looking at a used block wont be able to tell what they were or where they came from due to the markings.

As far as I go, I am what I am and thats that.

I do have a ring on my finger, but am flattered that anyone would ask :D

I was the only child of hard working parents that had little and scratched out a living on the farm and my dad was a tool and die maker/machinist welder fabricator and genuine jack of all trades.

Mom hated "little bitches" and dad knew nothing of girls so I grew up on go carts, guns tools and such.
As I grew older what we did seemed perfectly normal and that was life. :D:D

Just a tough rugged country girl.. My feminine emosions have been tempered in the fire and are kept hidden most of the time but when they do get loose, GAWD what a nasty event that is.

I do know how to look nice and actually can fake being a lady for a short time when I have to. Much more at home in the shop or out in the big rig.

Thanks for everything guys.

Best
Missy Robyn

Robyn

12-14-2007, 14:21

Reference was made to the term Ludite (Luddite)

One who dislikes, resists or does not understand technology.

I am well versed on much of the state of the art technology out there and get involved in a lot of it.
I build my own computers and do a lot of engineering and design work on stuff such as the little AR clone (502)

I despise stuff that is not reliable and shoved off on the consumer to deal with.
Technology that works well and is reliable is cool.

I still carry a cell phone that is used for talking and does not take pictures or surf the net. Simple is at times better.

My life is far more simple than it could be and this is by choice.

With an IQ of near 200 (yes that number is correct) there are many things in life I could do other than drive a truck and wrench on greasy old 6.5 engines. I choose to keep my life a little less complicated and cruise along and enjoy that which makes me happy. :)

I am a very much confirmed class "A" uptight and when I lose it, its not pretty.:eek:

This little insight into me personally may give a view to why I am the way I am and post as I do.

Best to all

Missy Robyn :D

micky_blue

12-17-2007, 09:26

I understand why people should know where these blocks come from, but the foundry in China that is doing these castings is not selling the blocks in the United States. If people are looking for a place to vent frustration, it should be at the retailers not properly advertising what they are selling. It is the retailer who should be on the hot seat here, not the manufacturer. Ever wonder why retailers are so tight lipped about where these blocks come from?

micky

Robyn

12-17-2007, 09:42

BINGO

My feeling here is that the sellers here most likely have had a hand in the program from the gitgo.

I just dont see the Chinese setting upa foundary line to make 6.5 blocks just because they can.

Someone else is involved that wants to cut a fat hog me thinks.
I may be wrong but I think someone smells money.

Robyn

MaxPF

12-17-2007, 21:40

First of all, the cause of block cracking isn't a real mystery... but then I have the advantage of some FEA insight :D

As far as the Chinese stuff goes... well, here's the deal. I just received a set of aftermarket cylinder heads from one of the popular vendors. Numerous folks here and on other sites have recommended them, so I figured I would order a pair and see for myself. I shoudn't have bothered...

At first glance they didn't look too bad. I set one on the workbench, got out my trusty Surefire, and started examining it closely. The casting is a bit rougher than my GM heads, but not too bad. There was definitely some core shift, but the ports looked OK. There didn't appear to be any extra material in any critical areas, but granted I can only see immediately inside the coolant passages. The machining looked OK, and the deck was actually quite smooth. However, I was told by the company's rep that these heads had hardened exhaust seat inserts. I was dismayed to see that they did not. There was tell-tale rainbowing around all the ports, which indicates induction hardening, but definitely no exhaust insert.

Next I examined the precups. Here's where the real trouble lies :mad: The first thing I noticed was that the port looked pretty rough. I drove it out with a brass rod and examined it more closely. It was definitely a pretty rough casting with nowhere near the quality of my old GM precups. Then, just out of suspicion, I put a magnet to it. The magnet stuck to it... HARD. Now, for those who don't know, the "stainless steel" that the originals are made of is either an austentic stainless of some kind, or a refractory nickel-based alloy like Nimonic. Stock cups are totally nonmagnetic, and the material is quite hard and tough. Not only were the cups in this head very magnetic, but when I tapped it back in the brass rod actually brinneled the surface! I don't know what material these cups are made of, but it isn't the same as the GM cups, and the metallurgy of the precups is critical for good life and reliability. Just ask some of the Toyota IDI diesel guys - they will tell you stories about precups breaking and a piece falling into the cylinder :eek:

Now, I didn't mention this yet, but the head had metal dust residue from the machining in the coolant passages, ports, etc. When I drove out the precups there was also some in the prechamber, including the seat that the precup sits on. When I drove the precup back in one side sat a few thousandths BELOW the deck surface! Apparently, the cup seated on some debris when it was installed and the deck cut. When I drove it out I must've dislodges some of this machining debris from one side of the precup seat, and as a result the cup now sits low on that side. Such lack of any care in machining or assembly speaks volumes about the overall quality one can expect from these imported products.:mad: :mad: :mad:

Needless to say I am sending them back, and if they try to stick me with a restocking fee I will file a dispute with my credit card company. We will see how it goes when I talk to the cylinder head distributor tomorrow.

In the meantime, I don't want to spend the money for a set of fully assembled AMG heads when I already have better valves and springs than they do, and much like the blocks you apparently cannot get a set of unassembled AMG heads :rolleyes: That leaves me right back where I started, and doing what I should have done in the first place: Lock'n'stitch the one small non-leaking crack that one of my original heads has, and install hardened exhaust seats to prevent future cracks (the reasons for head cracks are another misunderstood aspect of the 6.2/6.5). Oh well, live and learn I suppose...