Uninsulated 5th wheel and cold weather [Archive]

Philsauto

10-03-2007, 07:24

Friends,

I bought a California manufactured 5th wheel, a 32 foot Salem built by Forest River in Riverside California. It is not a four season rig. There is no insulation underneath for the water storage tanks. I plan a trip to Idaho to visit my granddaughter and get to know something about farming for the last two weeks of October. It may or may not get that cold. Should I be worried about the water tanks getting too cold? What are the consequences of a cold night in the 20's? Thanks!

chipper

10-03-2007, 18:57

What part of Idaho?

Philsauto

10-04-2007, 11:29

What part of Idaho?

Chipper,

It is south central Idaho, about 4000 feet elevation, north of Pocatello, a little town called Aberdeen. It is potato and beet growing territory. I hope to get in on the beet harvest and get to spend some time with my daughter, son-in-law, and granddaughter but staying in the 5th wheel will give us some privacy.

jsmiracle

10-04-2007, 14:12

I plan to take my 35' TT out late this fall. Coachmen Co. says it's good down to 20F (FW, grey, and blank water tanks are covered). All my FW piping(hoses) are located inside the living(heated) spaces.

A coworker has only his FW tank covered. He plans to pour non-toxic RV antifreeze down his grey and black water tanks to prevent their freezing. Seems like a good idea to me.....;)

Either way, it sounds like a good trip.......enjoy!

Jim M.

DmaxMaverick

10-04-2007, 14:37

Philsauto

10-04-2007, 16:41

My previous 5'er had the exposed bottom. Tank heaters took care of the problem many times. They can be had in AC, DC and AC/DC. The heaters look like waterbed heaters, and stick to the bottom of the tanks. If you are occupying and heating it the whole time it's freezing, you can skirt it to the ground.

Antifreeze works, but takes up a lot of tank volume if you are using the tanks at the same time. Good idea for when it's in storage.

My wife and I will be in it the whole time. I'm interested to see how the heating keeps up with the night time temps. After a long hot summer here in Hemet, CA cool nights don't sound like a bad thing, but cool quickly can become cold. I think I'll check at Camping World this Saturday for the heating blankets. The wind blows an awful lot up there so I think skirting may tend to blow away.

Mountainman

10-04-2007, 19:27

chipper

10-04-2007, 19:32

Phil,
You probably wont see temps below 25F & with the trl heated you shouldnt have any problems freezing up except your water hose. Buy a heat tape at your local hardware store in Idaho & put a foam pipe insulation over it.

Yukon6.2

10-04-2007, 22:44

Hi
Cheep easy skirting that wouln't blow away---hay bales,or straw.We used them one winter around a portable office,got to 40 below and we were still able to keep it heated with propane.Gave it to a guy with horses in the spring,recyling at it's finest:)

cowboywildbill

10-06-2007, 08:37

We used to leave our waste tanks open and let them drain if we had sewer connections. The wind can make a big difference. The guys are right on about skirting. It sounds like the guy that has done a lot of cold camping will keep you from having a problem. Don't forget to winterize after your done. Also I have replaced hot water heaters for people that turned them off on the trip home and froze them up and split them. I drain ours when we pack up if it is freezing out. Unless we are going to stop and stay in it on the way, then I leave it running. Although that can be a saftey concern. We were in Ohio at the All American Quarter Horse Congress at the Columbus fair grounds last year and we stayed in our old fifth wheel that we had traded in. For one night we were dead heading home next morning.I had pulled our other trade, a Horse trailer, back to OH. The dealer let us stay in our old unit for the night.It blew a fuse we had no heat no AC power nothing, batteries had been removed and our truck blew the 12v fuse, we had one blanket because we had moved everything out the week before. It got down to 28 f and sleeting/snowing wind was blowing 25 mph that night. Any way we had our Jack Russel dog with us, we fought over him. He was the only source of heat. We should have taken a couple of big dogs LOL. We froze our butts off. I didn't think it could get that cold in a trailer without heat. Make sure everything works and take extra balkets and three dogs"Ha Ha" for emergency heat. Good luck and stay warm and have a great time.

richp

10-06-2007, 08:50

Hi,

I live in Northern Illinois, and also regularly camp in Colorado and Utah into early November and as early as March with no problems. We have a 32' Jayco fiver, pulled by a 2001 K-2500 with 146k miles.

I sometimes wish I had the enclosed, heated tanks. But every time I think about doing the retro-fit, I can't recall a time when I really was seriously limited in what we wanted to do.

We go south in the winter, and for the day it takes to get to somewhere reliably above freezing, I leave it winterized and use water out of containers. Coming back, I winterize it the day we leave Tennessee or wherever we spend the last night, and it goes right back into storage.

I have spent the entire month of March at 4,500 feet in Utah, with no freezing problems -- temps into the mid-20's. I winterize -- or at least drain the tanks underneath -- if it is predicted to be below the mid 20's continuously. Never had a problem with that approach.

FWIW

Rich Phillips
Member #27

mark45678

10-06-2007, 17:06

Clean your black water tank , put 3 gallons of pink RV antifreeze in the black tank with the valve closed. Flush the toilet with blue windshield washer sovent that get for your car . you will have zero issue with the black water tank even if it sits all winter like this. I use my camper as a snowmobile RV camp for the winter...... The water system if its in the mid 20's at night should be ok if you leave water running lightly without heat tape. Gray water tank drain it and leave it open . If its really cold you need to drain the fresh water system and winterize it and just use bottled water...... 5 gallons of 115*f water with a small battery powered camp style shower is all you need to shower (unless your a teenage girl ) then you may need 100 gallons of 140*water !

NutNbutGMC

10-06-2007, 19:01

We used to leave our waste tanks open and let them drain if we had sewer connections. The wind can make a big difference. What does the wind do?

DmaxMaverick

10-06-2007, 19:38

What does the wind do?

It blows away the bubble of warm air that accumulates under the coach. It will increase the rate heat is carried away from the bottom of the floor area, just like a heatsink. If you can break the wind, it's amazing the good it does. Skirting really helps. Hay bails would be better, because they will also insulate. Problem is, it would take a lot of hay bails, and you can't (realistically) take them with you. If you are staying on a farm or ranch, they probably have some laying around. If there's a lot of snow around, stack/pack it up around the coach. Snow is an excellent insulator, believe it or not. I've spent many freezing nights in snow caves, and they can get too warm.

Canvas/vinyl skirts can be purchased or custom made. An excellent investment if you stay in cold country frequently. It will pay for itself in no time, with comfort and less propane used.

NutNbutGMC

10-06-2007, 20:30

That is what I was thinking. As for hay bales, can you say fire hazard? :D

I lived in a fiver for 2 winters in north-central IL. I've seen some cold weather there. After hitting -26 deg F, I took it back to TN to thaw out until spring.

I skirted for one winter but I found that the best bet was insulating the heat tape at the pipes and the holding tanks. Ambient temperatures are what they are. I was never really convinced of the warm air bubble when it gets much below 30 deg F.

Woke up one morning with my pillow frozen to the interior wall. Condensation had frozen to the pillow. I promise. :D

Just looking for opinions as such. Man I weathered some tough winters in a fiver. It was not built with a winter package. I made do myself with alternate provisions of insulation and prevention of air exchange.

One provision is to install baseboard heaters in the basement, as long as the lot fee is inclusive of the electric bill. A warm floor is worth every bit of the extra effort to install heaters in the basement. I placed 4 in a 40 footer and then placed several more on the inside of the living space/ May seem odd but once they are installed, one learns how to place furniture around the bases. Gas heating unit was just a backup or secondary use after that.

cowboywildbill

10-08-2007, 10:18

Hay or straw will work good,unless it's long term then the mice like to come in too. It seems like the hay intices them. A lot of times they get in during storage time anyway, I always felt they come in at the AC connection where the cord comes out. There is just enough room for them to squeeze in between the cord and the flap.I put a wad of steelwool around the cord inside the flap, it seems to stop them. I have seen some people use the blue builders styrofoam sheets for skirts cut to fit around the sides of the camper. They used duct tape to seem them together and a few wooden stakes to keep them in place. But don't duct tape to your trailer sides cause it will make a mess.
Good luck and have a great time.

Philsauto

10-10-2007, 07:33

Phil, I got a lot of years cold camping and I live a couple of miles from your shop.I will stop in and give you my experience with freezing (down to single digits) including batteries, water tanks, hot water heater, holding tanks, use of RV antifreeze, city water if avail., furnace etc. You serviced my Silverado a month or so ago and I like the way you folks operate. A large part of my experience came from keeping a rig up at Lake Hemet for 35 years and includes having 3 new trailers delivered up there. I will give you a call or stop in to see when is a good time for you. I'm easy cuz I been out of work goin' on 17 years.
Jim B.

Jim,
Thanks for your kind words and offer to help. I'd love to talk to you if you can stop by. I will be there till 4pm today and maybe tomorrow morning, then I'm off to Idaho. I've never left the shop for this long before but I have a good staff and I think they will keep things on an even keel while I am gone.

There are some great ideas posted here. My son-in-law raises lots of wheat so I'm guess straw bales will be available for skirting and that may be all I need.

On another subject, the administration has asked me to sponsor the Diesel Page. I'm inclined to do it but wonder if you have seen any other members from our area posting here.

Many thanks!

Craig M

10-11-2007, 11:32

I am just north of you in Riverside.

Philsauto

10-15-2007, 14:14

Well, last night was down to 31 degrees. No problems yet, and I'm inclined to think the heat from the trailer is enough to keep those tanks warm. By the way, the best I can do with this uninsulated trailer is about 30 degrees above ambient with the heater going full blast, so we are getting used to being a bit cold. So far, though, its working out fine.

richp

10-15-2007, 16:33

Hi Phil,

If you have a good 120 volt hookup (preferably 30 amps), you can run a 1500 watt cube heater and not only kick the heat level up, but also save on propane.

FWIW.

Rich Phillips
Member #27

a5150nut

10-15-2007, 20:52

sturgeon-phish

10-16-2007, 11:02

A couple of years ago I wintered in the Smokies in my 5er. I put heat tape and foam around my water hose and my pipes I could access in the basement keeping the temp sensor where it would be the coldest. I let grey tank valve open and drained black when it was above freezing. A lot of full time RVers swear by skirting, even cardboard to keep the wind out and a 100 watt light bulb will do wonders.
I too used a ceramic heater and an electric blanket. I was cozy all winter.
Jim

Philsauto

11-04-2007, 07:35

I did use the cube heater once, when we unexpectedly ran out of propane, and it did a decent job of keeping the bedroom warm.

Here's my stats on uninsulated or minimally insulated 5th wheels in cold weather: Down to 27 degrees at night, no problem with freezing the storage tanks. However, I had to remember to shut off the supply water at night because the hose on the ground would always freeze even at 31 degrees and then I would have no water pressure in the mornings. By shutting off the hose and bleeding off the water pressure, I could then use the fresh water storage tank and the pump in the mornings until the hose thawed out around noon. I did not put anything around the bottom of the coach. The wind blows across the Idaho volcanic plains like crazy, so skirting is not practical.

Speaking of the wind, the storage compartments on the windward side of the coach don't seal very well, so I worked from the inside, under the couch, and duct-taped on a big piece of household insulation. This really cut down on the draft.

Propane usage: At $2.50 a gallon for propane, it costs about $25 a week to keep the coach running. The two 8 gallon bottles last about 9 days, which seems pretty good to me given the night time temperatures were always in the low 30s or high 20s. It does warm up to 45 or 50 during the day and when the sun shines, that really warms up the house.

All in all, I was really happy with the performance of the California coach in Idaho fall weather. Now, the dead of winter, that would be a different story, probably would not work out satisfactorily.

Philsauto

11-04-2007, 07:38

Sumthin else you might want if your in there very long is a dehumidifier. Takes as much as 10 quarts of moisture out of the air in a day in my 36 footer. You would be surprised how much propane you save and no more black mold growing around the windows.:eek:

Get a good one at either Sears or Camping world for about $135.00

Where were you located when you ran the dehumidifier? My indoor, outdoor thermometer showed the humidity in the coach at around 40% at 30 degrees, which is pretty dry already. How dry would you want it? The elevation there in Idaho is 4000 feet, which I think tends to be pretty dry.

a5150nut

11-04-2007, 09:19

Where were you located when you ran the dehumidifier? My indoor, outdoor thermometer showed the humidity in the coach at around 40% at 30 degrees, which is pretty dry already. How dry would you want it? The elevation there in Idaho is 4000 feet, which I think tends to be pretty dry.

Maybe it's the Bay Area moisture I am fighting. Things do rust up here a lot sooner than they did when I lived in Riverside. When I start to see the first condensation on the windows I turn on the dehumidifier.

Sound like you enjoyed your trip! ;) That's the main thing.

Ever fish that little puddle called Shinner Lake? I worked on the dam and lakebed for that project. Many years ago........

Philsauto

11-05-2007, 16:12

Maybe it's the Bay Area moisture I am fighting. Things do rust up here a lot sooner than they did when I lived in Riverside. When I start to see the first condensation on the windows I turn on the dehumidifier.

Sound like you enjoyed your trip! ;) That's the main thing.

Ever fish that little puddle called Shinner Lake? I worked on the dam and lakebed for that project. Many years ago........

I'm guess you mean Skinner lake? Haven't been down there for many years but it used to be pretty popular with fisherman. We have a new lake much nearer now, a huge thing called Diamond Valley Reservoir. 2 miles wide and 4 miles long, 200 feet deep. I can't believe they found enough water in California to fill it. We are now on 10% voluntary water rationing. I hope it starts to rain soon.

a5150nut

11-05-2007, 20:44

I'm guess you mean Skinner lake? Haven't been down there for many years but it used to be pretty popular with fisherman. We have a new lake much nearer now, a huge thing called Diamond Valley Reservoir. 2 miles wide and 4 miles long, 200 feet deep. I can't believe they found enough water in California to fill it. We are now on 10% voluntary water rationing. I hope it starts to rain soon.

Yep Skinner would be what I meant. Diamond is the largest earth fill dam in the west IIRC. It beat out Oroville, but it took two to do it! MWD has deep pockets to be able to fill the little puddle.