FSD SYNC Relocation to Bumper: VOIDS WARRANTY! Do it anyway.

[Stratosurfer]

All,
At risk of censure, I am pasting in an e-mail from a 6.5 vendor sent to me denying warranty coverage on an FSD SYNC of his that failed in 13th month of purchase, 10th month installed. This was uncomfortable (read expensive) for me personally, however the content of the e-mail should be read to understand this vendors ignorance of the FSD problem, and judgement passed if this vendor knows much about the 6.5 TD practically.
I have the 98 Suburban that I mounted the FSD SYNC/PMD combo on the intake manifold as instructed and it has failed in it's 10th month. On my Tahoe I mounted it on the backside of the bumper centerline about the same time and no problems whatsoever. I asked for warranty service and this is the vendors e-mail replay.
================================================== =====================
-----Original Message-----
From: SSDiesel Supply [mailto:sales@ssdieselsupply.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2007 5:15 PM
To: mageeseven@earthlink.net
Subject: response from Walt

[dragonriot]

Ok, so let's look at the PMD as a computer processor... what the guy says is actually spot on, and you will fry the PMD if there is not a contant flow of cool air going through the fins...

In the days of the 486 processors, a heatsink was all that was needed to keep the core cool... you could have a seriously quiet machine and never worry about heat problems unless all the vent holes got plugged with dust. Nowadays, with Core 2 Duo and Turion X2 processors (giving both major companies their due) you will literally fry your processor in a matter of seconds if you remove the fan and in milliseconds if you just yank the whole heatsink/fan combo.

He also mentions the compound needing to be replaced if you remove the PMD from the heatsink, which is absolutely true... what he didn't mention was that there are different grades of heat transfer compound, and some are much better than others. Like mortar between bricks or glue between two pieces of lumber, the thinner the adhesive (or compound in this case) the better the pieces will "stick" to each other and transfer heat properly. If you do remove your PMD from the heatsink, and find yourself at an auto supply house looking for new compound, turn around, and drive to your nearest computer supply shop. Ask one of the guys there for a tube of "Arctic Silver"... you will likely pay an arm and a leg (relatively speaking for the amount you get compared to what you would have gotten from the auto supply house) for it, but it is well worth every dime to get the best possible heat transfer from the PMD to the heatsink.

Finally, computer processor fans blow air away from the processor, not into the fins... if they did this, it would blow up the processor... not as fast as taking the fan and heatsink off, but the general idea behind the fins is to create a cross current and then "suck" the heat out of them. Mounting a fan on top of your heatsink (a 6" diameter fan hooked up to your accessory switch would run whenever the key is on, and be perfect for this application) and making sure it blows air away from the PMD would be more effective than mounting it on the bumper. As dude says in his e-mail, when you are at a stop, there is no air flowing across the fins, and that means quick heat buildup. Where the PMD is mounted stock on the Injection Pump gets a constant flow of cold air from the intake, and the Injection Pump is one big heatpipe...

Wait... what's a heatpipe? Well, with the advent of these new uber processors that are designed to be overclocked to 133-150% of their original speed, something new and different had to be designed to transfer the amount of heat generated by the processor because the standard heatsink and fan combos just weren't pulling enough heat away from the core, and overheating was not only possible, but likely. Some dude came up with an idea to make a copper heatplate (transfers heat better than aluminum, but it oxidizes), solder on some copper pipes, fill them with coolant, a la freon, and then solder a heatsink and fan to the opposite ends of the pipes. In this way, fluid dynamics plays a huge roll in dissipating the heat generated by the processor, keeping it close to room temperature by heat transfer. Heat rises, so it's important to make sure the heat pipes are routed so the heat can travel upwards, then be "sucked" off the heatsink by the fan. The "cool" thing is, if you have enough heatpipes and enough fins, you don't need a fan...

The best way to cool anything is with liquid, and heatpipe technology is one step shy of pure water cooling... The absolute ultimate way to cool something is to spray it with water... well, we don't want to get anything under the hood wet, but there is nothing wrong with running some copper pipe through the fins of your cooler, and routing a line from your radiator to pass water through the pipe and back into the system... While radiator water may be a bit on the "warm" side, it would be better than the air in the engine compartment, and a vast improvement over the bumper mount idea... I'll bet a "bolt-on" system that routed A/C refrigerant through the fins would make a guy a boatload of money... and not just for our 6.5L motorheads...

So with that, if someone wants to send me a couple PMDs for testing - even a broken one will do for the fitment test - I would be happy to design a better, longer lasting, more efficient, failsafe (heatwise) PMD cooling system.

Being a "computer nerd", I know the best ways to transfer heat away from electronics, because heat kills computers... I see so many people bring their machines to me wondering why their box is so slow... "Do I have a virus??" "Do I have spyware?" Well, if dust bunnies are spyware and no airflow is a virus, then yes, my friend, you do... Keep your airflow high, and keep everything clean, and your PMD should never have any problems...

Before anyone gets a wild hair to go and create something like either of my ideas... I'm patenting them both... =) Just need to come up with a solid design... hehe... Of course, I am just a computer guy, so everything I just said could be total BS... Can't hurt to keep it cooler though...

[More Power]

First, a public forum isn't the best place to complain about a vendor unless there is advertising deception or something similarly bad. Even then I get a little uneasy about it.

I'd prefer the two parties worked together to reach an agreement. Two reasonable people can usually find a solution. If the vendor is one who advertises here, I can talk to both parties and offer a suggestion.

Otherewise, the warranty has apparently expired for the PMD. If his warranty is posted on his web site, and you received a copy of that warranty with the product, where's the beef?

Second, concerning the vendor claims of best mounting location. I tested remote mount FSD/PMDs and found that they would get just warm (nowhere near approaching hot) with the engine idling.

Think of the two power transistors in the FSD as a high power audio amplifier for a booming base speaker set. Crank the volume up (i.e. use full throttle) and they consume lots of wattage. Turn the volume way down (i.e. idle the engine) and they consume a lot less wattage. So, idling in traffic is not a problem concerning heat dissipation of the FSD, no matter whether the cooler might be located behind the bumper or on the engine. Now, pulling a long steep grade with a heavy trailer is another story. Absolutely, the PMD should be getting lots of airflow to keep it cool, cuz you've got the volume cranked.

Jim

[Stratosurfer]

Second, concerning the vendor claims of best mounting location. I tested remote mount FSD/PMDs and found that they would get just warm (nowhere near approaching hot) with the engine idling.
Think of the two power transistors in the FSD as a high power audio amplifier for a booming base speaker set. Crank the volume up (i.e. use full throttle) and they consume lots of wattage. Turn the volume way down (i.e. idle the engine) and they consume a lot less wattage. So, idling in traffic is not a problem concerning heat dissipation of the FSD, no matter whether the cooler might be located behind the bumper or on the engine. Now, pulling a long steep grade with a heavy trailer is another story. Absolutely, the PMD should be getting lots of airflow to keep it cool, cuz you've got the volume cranked.

Jim
Jim,
This vendor told me that I 'doomed' my PMD when I moved it to my bumper in the removed e-mail. The fact is it was already malfunctioning in less than 10 months after installed as prescribed by the vendor. An identical unit installed on my other 6.5TD has had no problems! Forgive my exasperation, you removed the vendors e-mail which clearly states this, it can only lead one to think either his data is bad or he sells a lot of PMD's under his current business plan.
Either way, I'm done with this vendor. I believe all would have been better off if you had pulled my entire original post and thread rather than leave it here gutted w/o the vendors response.
My beef? Why a 6 month warranty on a product Stanadyne warrants for 12 months? Has his manipulation of the unit -shortened- its life?
My conclusion: This vendors FSD Syncs fail regularly as I know first hand if mounted as prescribed. If mounted elsewhere (on the bumper) they seem to last but according to the vendor they are 'doomed' to a rapid failure and the warranty is voided.
Sorry, suppose I'm full of Beef today! We have our Goat Cookoff this weekend here in Brady TX, our population goes from 5,500 to near 30,000, maybe I'll mellow out. But I will never do business with this vendor!

[More Power]

Strato, I agree with a lot of what you say. I left enough of your original post to allow others to PM you (or otherwise take it off the board) asking for more details if they/you wish to keep it alive.

Again, I agree... 6 months is way too short a warranty and his mounting location requirement and his reasons for it aren't clear enough.

If anything, this highlights one reason why it's a good idea to do business with those vendors who support this board (http://www.thedieselpage.com/vendors/main.htm). They know me and I them. I offer to listen to both parties in any sort of disagreement, and help all sides reach a reasonable conclusion. Doesn't happen often, but I've done this 2-3 times in the past few years. In the end, everyone was satisfied. :)

Jim

[john8662]

I think the point has been made w/o the email corruspondance present.

Something about all these "coolers" that I find somewhat odd is that many people seem to be seeing higher failure rates when using new FSD modules mounted to the intake.

This clearly proves the point that there are two main places for the FSD/PMD.

1) Remote mount the module away from the engine on a good cooler with the proper torque and gasket or heat sync compound.

Examples: Bumper mount, Heath's FSD Isolator, Mounting on driver's battery tray in airflow.

2) Keep the FSD a PMD and mount it to the injection pump, they usually last more than 12 months there, but a big pain to replace.

They last longer in this location on an engine that runs 180 degree stats I suspect, as to why I never had a PMD failure.

J

[Turbine Doc]

Ergo spend a little more maybe a little less coin than some charge for one that has a 7yr no BS if it ever quits on you mount it anywhere you want OUTSIDE the engine bay

[DA BIG ONE]

I run 3 different FSD units because of the murphy factor and remote locations, overkill perhaps but downtime cause of a fsd failure is short lived...............................

[More Power]

I run 3 different FSD units because of the murphy factor and remote locations, overkill perhaps but downtime cause of a fsd failure is short lived...............................

I'm somewhat in line with you. I've been recommending for some time now that people should add a remote cooler that is mounted in a convenient location, if for no other reason than to make it easy to replace the FSD module with a spare and with minimal tools. I haven't had a flat tire while on the road since I don't remember when (decades at least), but I still carry a spare. An FSD is easier to replace than a spare tire if it's mounted to a cooler that allows replacement.

I learned a long time ago that the lifetime warranty the local auto parts store offered on their cheap rebuilt imported starters was pointless if it quit working every few weeks - possibly stranding me somewhere. I struggled through 3 such guaranteed for life starter replacements (in a period of about 6 weeks) before realizing that a factory new GM starter, even with a very short warranty and being more expensive, was the far-far better choice.

Jim

[Turbine Doc]

I'd kinda be with you Jim but it's a toss up, if GM quality was same as it once was it would be worth the money always buying OEM parts, case in point GM alternator, replaced with GM alternator, original lasted 3 years, replacement GM lasted 2, still under extended warranty coverage so not too painful except for downtime, out of warranty for alternator 2 now on me; replaced it with lifetime autozone 3 years later now it's starting to make tell tale bearing squeals, it was Mexico built as was the GM. Autozone lifetime was about $200 IIRC, GM was maybe $350-375, if this is going to be a every 2-3 year event as is the trend I'm seeing $200 once was better spent decision

Today changing original starter on my 2001 VW TDI (PITA) Bosh VW starter, German made rite; nope Mexico stamped on side, replacement again Bosh original German nope again Mexico, hows a feller to win buy factory parts and still get made elsewhere point of origin, pay mega $$$ for factory quality only to find they wanted to have them made cheap for them, do they pass cost saving to you, nope again still got to pay for that factory brand name. VW price, $400ish, online price VW dealer $250, alas no lifetime warranty Autozone starter available, hoping this starter lasts 6 years as 1st one, maybe I can have 1st rebuilt for $250 or less for a ready to use spare.

As far as PMDs go there is one choice IMO, of all polls I've seen here & elsewhere I've yet to see a single subsequent fail, not saying it hasn't happened just nobody fessed up to having the 7 year covered one fail (I still carry a spare with me at all times each 6.5 I have, it is still a Stanadyne part at the end of the day, just haven't needed to use them yet),

Mine is going on 3yrs now on my truck & 1 yr on the one I installed on my burb, never a stall sputter hiccup as result of PMD, (OPS & bad lift pump whole nuther story)

I cant say that about 1st 4 PMD/FSD on the truck 2 on IP (one of the on IP drivers only had 6 miles of powerd life, it was unplugged when I installed the DSG kit, intented to be a spare was dead when I needed it ) and 2 on DSG cooler that I had couple of places under hood as recommended by seller of cooler kit 4 fails in 7 years are pretty grimm stats, but yes off IP mounted is easier.

Scary part though is having one die in traffic while moving a fully loaded trailer, yup easy to change once you try to manouver the dead beast to side of the road and hope nobody runs you over in process of trying to get to road side.

For my peace of mind the driver that has given me the best longevity thus far, was the one to go with, so last year when I bought the burb it was an easy choice even if it cost me a little more than several "used but good glove box spares". Discretion being better part of valor also at play, the burb was/is the replacement family mover meaning the boss aka MRS TBO will be driving, I can see now, "yeah honey it's dead, oh that happens to em all the time, now just get it to the side of the road, in glove box is the new part, yeah it is hot today sorry about that" ..... but anyway "see that little L shaped thingy, it's a allen wrench, now under the bumper, no nothing to lay on the ground, I said I was sorry it died on you again like last year....."

Then let MRS TBO ever find out I have something different on the truck that does a better job, I'm brave at times but not that brave nor foolish, rest of you guys can do the used but good fleabay special but not me.

[More Power]

(I still carry a spare with me at all times each 6.5 I have, it is still a Stanadyne part at the end of the day, just haven't needed to use them yet)

What would you mount your spare module to? As I recall, Heath glues the module onto his plate cooler.

If you have another remote cooler to use with your spare module, would you recommend people buy another remote cooler? Just askin.. It is still a Stanadyne part at the end of the day, which, I might add, has proven to be one of the most problematic parts on the entire vehicle.

Jim

[Turbine Doc]

I've still got the original DSG cooler for the 1 spare (that did work bettter than IP mounted just not as long as I would have liked it to), currently it stays in the burb or I swap it to my truck if I'm going to be far away from the house with the truck, thinking of a computer heat sink to mount the other spare to or 6x12x1/2" thick aluminum plate to mount to, those would get me home if my main one left me stranded, I just don't trust them for long haul as they are "used but good"
spares

Maybe a new driver mounted to a sink from day 1 out of the engine bay is a good balance of cost/reliability; but my bugaboo there is new drivers getting to be pricey with Stanadyne upping their prices, cooler sellers saying they won't honor a piddly IMO, warranty for an out of the bay mounting, when a significant amount of data shows that is the place they last the longest. then have it die again 2-3 years down the road and shell out $300+ or whatever current going rate is at time of the fail.

If my main driver dies within it's warranty period, the used but good spare should get me by until the replacement arrives.

If I'm really down & out I can grab the main driver from the other vehicle and run with it also.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

"Ok, so let's look at the PMD as a computer processor..." It's not. It's a combination of discreet semiconductors that drive the fuel solenoid in the IP. Stanadyne uses bipolar drivers; the ill-fated competitor (can't remember name) uses FETs, which will indeed run cooler, but IMHO it doesn't matter.

Please do some searches: from years of reading stuff here, I'm convinced that heat generated by the semiconductors in the FSD / PMD have NOTHING to do with the high failure rate, underhoold temps do. They are causing expansion / contraction of the physical parts of the FSD / PMD, which causes the drive transistor nuts to get loose, & in extreme cases to break their solder connection on the FSD / PMD PCB. I'm not saying this is a fact, do your own homework. :)

Blessings!

[More Power]

Good Day!

"Ok, so let's look at the PMD as a computer processor..." It's not. It's a combination of discreet semiconductors that drive the fuel solenoid in the IP. Stanadyne uses bipolar drivers; the ill-fated competitor (can't remember name) uses FETs, which will indeed run cooler, but IMHO it doesn't matter.

Please do some searches: from years of reading stuff here, I'm convinced that heat generated by the semiconductors in the FSD / PMD have NOTHING to do with the high failure rate, underhoold temps do. They are causing expansion / contraction of the physical parts of the FSD / PMD, which causes the drive transistor nuts to get loose, & in extreme cases to break their solder connection on the FSD / PMD PCB. I'm not saying this is a fact, do your own homework. :)

Blessings!

Good call!

Here's my recommendation.... You need two good FSD/PMD modules - one in use and another as a backup. The module should be easily replaced by the side of the road, even in the dark of night. The Heath cooler/module package might be the best (that uses the Stanadyne module), but you cannot replace the proven problematic Stanadyne module in an energency because it is glued on. This means that carrying a spare module would require yet another cooler package (whether homemade or commercial). A long warranty means little to someone stranded a long way from home and no way to get help. Having a backup would save the day.

By the way, there is a new re-designed FSD module (non-Stanadyne) that just appeared on the market. After reading the literature, it appears they could be using the same electronic components as the Stanadyne part, but the aluminum base and potting compound are different, supposedly solving the thermal expansion/contraction problem, which I agree with moondoggie about as being the primary issue. Other than reading the short ad, that's about all I know about it - I don't remember the manufacturer/vendor name. I'm away from my main computer right now, but will post the link once I return. This module appears to mount like the OEM part to any of the various coolers out there, even including the side of the fuel injection pump. We had high hopes for the SOL-D unit. Let's hope this one is better.

Jim

[Robyn]

First off I would regard the questionable email as proof positive that you dont want to do business with that vendor again.

Rule one, mount the little magic box where its cool and fairly dry.
Lots of cool airflow is a good thing
A heat sink on the floor or just under the lip of the dash with a computer fan on it would be great. Also you can set up your cooler to allow more than one PMD to be mounted and if one fails, swap tha plug and keep on going.

IMHO if I dealer is that anal about this, one he does not full understand the issues here
Two, he is looking to make a killing and that is that.

My opinion. Salvage the cooler and mount it with a long cable someplace cool and dont do any more business with that vendor.

Sometimes it just takes too much energy and raises ones blood pressure far too high to continue a pissing match. :eek:

Sorry for your misfortune

Robyn :)

[More Power]

Here's the link to the redesigned DTech (http://www.dtechproducts.com/Products/6_5L_DS_Pump/6_5L_DS_PMD/6_5l_ds_pmd.html) FSD/PMD module...

I' guess we'll find out sooner or later whether it's any good....

The only questionable issue I have with it is that they "borrowed" Christer Lindstom's (BETA FSD Cooler manufacturer) temperature data.... :( They should have produced their own data.... IMO

Jim

[gmctd]

I've sorta had it in the back of my mind, upon seeing this, that it may be Christer's design come to fruition - only lacking item was a suitable connector, unavailable without buying the expensive original connector\case assembly

Should be interesting to do some hands-on testing of the new offering.

[More Power]

Yes, that occurred to me as well, but if this was a BETA product (an if I were BETA), I'd offer the new module as part of a package with their existing FSD Cooler - and take advantage of the existing dealer network and name recognition. Christer and I communicate a couple of times a year.... He's not mentioned a redesigned module to me for some years now (which might not mean anything).

Jim

[Chuck1]

I got a heath extention a 8 inch x 8 inch heat sink drilled holes by each driver used a used driver with a mounting plate .Mounted it to the top of the skid pan never another blink .94 truck there for 4 years never a problem .used pmd $30.00 from pump rebuilding shop.I think it just needs to stay cool.Any heat sink works really easy to mount.Just get it in a cool spot.

[javadog]

Here is my latest F** go-round. With the help of a shop I use I had the F** relocated to
the passenger side frame rail using a 6 foot harness extension from Texas. The vehicle would
not accelerate or run right, and going uphill would only go about 40 MPH. Even with a new
F** known to be good, the vehicle would not run with that long harness, even after I took out the #9 resistor. So, what is by next best option? Put my driver and cooler back on the intake manifold-not an option, or shorten the harness and bring it into the cabin somehow? Where is the best place to bring the harness through the firewall? Do I need to get a fan to blow on it there or will cabin temps be low enough that it will not be necessary? Any real experience with this- fan versus no fan in the cabin? I would like to get at least a couple more years out of
this Suburban but the constant hassle is getting old.
Also, will I have any problems with the F** now that it does not have any sort of calibration resistor in it?

[gmctd]

Where is the short black ground wire that was attached to the top of the Inj Pump?

[Stratosurfer]

Here's the link to the redesigned DTech (http://www.dtechproducts.com/Products/6_5L_DS_Pump/6_5L_DS_PMD/6_5l_ds_pmd.html) FSD/PMD module...

I' guess we'll find out sooner or later whether it's any good....

The only questionable issue I have with it is that they "borrowed" Christer Lindstom's (BETA FSD Cooler manufacturer) temperature data.... :( They should have produced their own data.... IMO

Jim

Jim/All,
This unit is for sale at my home away from home: EBay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=016&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=260160027266&rd=1

Sold as a 'New Improved 6.5 Black Box Driver.' I'm starting a new thread if there's not one out there on this new creation.