Pres. Bush & His Comments On Fuel "Blends"

[DA BIG ONE]

I'm guessing when he said, allowing for blends that will bring more fuel to market he is talking about less refining, or?

I can't emagine fuel that is worse than what we are getting now here in the sub-tropics, but I also wonder what damage (IP's, pumps, valves)is being done with the new enviro blends anyway?

No matter how easy I drive the fuel milage has taken a major dump along w/major increase in price. However, halfway up the state fuel is better.....

[dstoops]

My understanding is that there are many different formulations of gasoline used in different parts of the country. The story is that is why there would be significant differences in gas prices from one city to another. The head of the EPA has suspended the requirement that certain formulations go to certain areas in order to improve distribution. The most affected areas will be the mid-United States. I have heard that one distributor here in Northern Indiana was out of diesel as of 4:00 am today. I think it's time to increase our refining capacity in spite of the PC opinions of the extreme environmentalists. I realize that wouldn't fix our immediate problem but the need for more capacity will not go away anytime soon....Just my opinion.

[DChristie]

Bigs

I didn't catch the Prez's remarks, but from what I know about enviro-fuels I wouldn't be concerned with it too much. As far as Less refining, Diesel is already a waste product from producing unleaded gasoline, not much refining anyway.

Bio diesel that has NOT been waterwashed gives more power than waterwashed, and the cost in components takes between 60k and 100k miles to manifest. The methanol or alcohol content deteriorates the rubber components in the fuel system. Removing the Methanol or Alcohol by waterwashing results in lower volatility, and reduced power. (about 12%)
I run straight vegetable oil because it has less hassle-factor. I collect it, heat it, filter it, and burn it all on board the truck. I handle it once.
Trans-esterfying it takes about a day. And requires four transfers; collection, "refining", distribution,(into the truck)and disposal of the glycerin. Part of the mix is caustic and toxic so use caution, PPE, and a well ventilated area.
Every time a transfer of waste V.O. happens, some is spilled, dribbled, drooled, slobbered, whatever you want call it. It's a mess and it stinks. So to minimize the mess, I handle it as little as possible.
The heated oil is still a lubricant and can help to preserve wearing components.
I do notice a requirment for a heavier foot on VO but for free, who cares ?

At any rate, sorry to read you are getting garbage fuel on the coast, but on the down side, now you are paying more for the same crap fuel. :mad: Katrina has done a number on prices everywhere.

[BrentN]

I didnt hear the Presidents speech, but have heard that the "blends" comment was made. Basically what is boils down to is we as a nation dont quite have a different formulation of regular unleaded (or each other flavor of gas) for each state, but it is nearly that bad. So, what happens is that the refinery cant just lock and load one formula and run the heck out of it, they have to keep shutting down and changing over to run the different geographic blends. Doesnt make sense. They need to figure out a blend for basically each time zone and keep it simple.

Kind of like the bump in price we saw out west when the refineries in California started switching over to no sulphur...

With several refineries out of commision in the huricane regions, it makes total sense to have the rest of the refineries run whatever blend of gas or diesel that makes the most sense and keep it flowing.

In the meantime everyone needs to call their rep or senator and tell them you want them to support legislation to get more refineries built. There hasnt been one built in the US since 1976. There are a lot more vehicles on the road today than in 76.

[Dimsdale]

Definitely need more refineries. Newer, bigger, cleaner, more efficient refineries, not the old ones we have now.

The current 148 refineries are running at over 90% capacity, so interruption in any one, by hurricane, fire, maintenance etc., causes artificial shortages. If we had, say, another 100 refineries, the total could run at perhaps 70% capacity, and a shutdown of any one could be easily compensated by increase production at the others. The environmentalists are primarily responsible, but the oil companies don't care, because they get a substantial windfall every time there is one of these "shortages." No incentive.

There is not shortage though, at least not here in the Northeast. Gas shot up to $2.89-2.99 last night, but only the station with the "sale" price of $2.64 had any cars at all, and the lines were only about 3-4 cars deep. The expensive stations were empty, waiting to fill you up.

We are just going to have to wait this out and hope that the prices will actually go back down after the media fueled (pun intended) hysteria.

[rjschoolcraft]

The oil companies have tried, unsuccessfully, for years to get permits to build refineries. They will make far more money over the long term by increasing capacity than they make from these short term spikes. So, your "oil companies don't care" comment is not accurate.

Prices here are $3.199 per gallon.

The oil companies are not the bad guys here. The environmentalists and the liberal politicians that empowered them are the criminals. On top of that, we the people, have to carefully consider how we vote. Let's get the focus right.

[Dvldog 8793]

Howdy
Without turning this into a pollitical blog, I agree with Roniejoe. That being said I also think that we could really change things if we were willing to pay a little more initially to fund the set-up of more bio-fuel plants(pun intended ;) ) and implementaion of a good mixture at the pumps. I think MUCH if not ALL the research has been done. The facts are out there it's just a matter of the US people being willing to cut ties with EASY OPEC oil. Once things got rolling it would not only boost the oil industry economy but the farms as well. In southern MN we have new ethanol plants going up all over the place. Really boosts morral of the farmers to SEE something happening locally with the crops.
I still can't understand why my '84 3/4 ton van(about as areodynamic as a brick) can get an average of 21mpg pulling a trailer through the east coast mountains and my wifes Ford WINDSTAR struggles to get the same with slipstream styling and no trailer!!! If my van can get that then new vehicles should be in 40s and 50s easy. OH WELL, enough ranting!
L8r
Conley

[DA BIG ONE]

Latest reports; $3.89.9 gal. on Palm Beach, $6.00 gal. near Alanta.

Common to see some bimbo complain about price of gas while she is buying 8oz of designer water for $3.00.

What a country!

[Dimsdale]

Ron,

I didn't mean to disparage the oil companies. If anything, I am on their side! I was simply (and poorly) stating that their incentive is mollified by short term windfalls like what is occurring right now.

The envirowackos have slowly degraded our oil producing/refining dominance in the world through nit picky regulations that constantly build on themselves to put a straitjacket on oil exploration and development.

There are huge oil reserves just sitting off shore from CA and FL that we can't touch because someone's view will be obstructed or there is some infinitesimal chance of an oil spill. Anyone seen any from the rigs currently in the gulf, even during this recent storm? In fact, offshore oil rigs are virtual oaises of life, acting as a reef that attracts fish and other wildlife.

If you want a really interesting read, check out Walter Williams' (a conservative columnist and economist) recent column regarding gasoline prices (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/walterwilliams/ww20050831.shtml)
He puts interesting perspectives on these prices and how they (until yesterday, anyway) are not as high as we think they are.

And I agree with Dvldog: a reasonable biodiesel blend that worked all year 'round would be the best way to offset the loss of lubricity from ultra low sulfur Diesel fuel that the EPA is going to bestow on us. I really can't see how they could have a problem with a B5 or B10 mix from any point of view.

More refineries are key though, and should be dealt with as a matter of imminent need and national security.

Maybe they could use those mostly squandered fuel tax revenues........ ;)

[jonflies]

DChristie, what kind of conversion kit did you install? I'm trying to build my own but keep running into vacuum leaks. You can always email me at jpnwh@verizon.net

In central Florida, they're talking about rationed electric because of the stopped flow of natural gas, which fuels many of the local power plants. I didn't see any lines at the gas stations around Winter Haven, but I did hear they ran out of Diesel on Rt. 27 yesterday.

Releasing the strategic reserves won't help unless we have more refineries. Did I hear that one right?

[trbankii]

I have to say that the idea of making the farmers rich through biodiesel appeals to me a heck of a lot more than making people rich who hate us and fund terrorism...

[JeepSJ]

Common to see some bimbo complain about price of gas while she is buying 8oz of designer water for $3.00.Spell Evian backwards...

[DChristie]

Big One,

Can you post a pic of the bimbo and her water? :eek: For some reason I'd like to see that. I expect it would make me laugh, I could use that right now... :D

DChristie

[NH2112]

Originally posted by Dimsdale:
[QB] Ron,

I didn't mean to disparage the oil companies. If anything, I am on their side! I was simply (and poorly) stating that their incentive is mollified by short term windfalls like what is occurring right now.100% correct, but I think the problem is the shareholders want immediate results in the form of higher stock values and bigger dividend checks. Doubling (in some cases) the price of fuel gives this instant gratification, building more refineries will have the same result but quite a way down the road.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

My poorly-informed opinion was that it is primarily speculators driving the fuel prices up so high B4 the New Orleans disaster. :mad: This disaster, of course, changes everything, especially if you lived there.

Too, short-term shareholder returns vs. long-term has always had an effect I at least partially don't like on board & management decisions. Why is Toyota, & not GM (or other big 3) selling, today, high city mpg vehicles? They look long-term. Such short-term thinking is not TOTALLY bad, but this is one of many negative consequences of such thinking. :(

Blessings!

[catmandoo]

the one drawback to ethanol plants is they use more energy then they produce.

[C.K. Piquup]

You can`t compare the cost of water or milk per gallon to that of fuel,dumb analogy.I don`t drink 60 gallons a week of either one and 1/2 the consumer products aren`t made out of them or delivered by vehicles running on them.
It`s easy for one school of thought to blame the other.I wish it was that simple.The oil companies are no angels here and all this is just an excuse.C`mon,prices up 200% because of a drop in production of what %?China`s using more,but they`re also opening refineries built with US steel.It`s a bunch of corporate flim-flam as much as anything else.

[rjschoolcraft]

Originally posted by C.K. Piquup:
You can`t compare the cost of water or milk per gallon to that of fuel,dumb analogy.I don`t drink 60 gallons a week of either one and 1/2 the consumer products aren`t made out of them or delivered by vehicles running on them.
It`s easy for one school of thought to blame the other.I wish it was that simple.The oil companies are no angels here and all this is just an excuse.C`mon,prices up 200% because of a drop in production of what %?China`s using more,but they`re also opening refineries built with US steel.It`s a bunch of corporate flim-flam as much as anything else. As long as folks continue to think this way, the problem will not get better.

[DmaxMaverick]

You guys may have missed the point.

DBO's statement about the $3 bottle of water, isn't about the water, or a comparison with it and fuel.

It's about the mentality of the individual paying that for the water, and apparently OK with that, then complaining about the price of fuel.

Big Oil has us all fooled. How many now would be happy to see $2.50 a gallon? $40 a barrel is looking pretty good now. $250 a gallon for #2 is still twice what it should be, IMO.

[rjwest]

I'm old enough to rember the last GAS crisis.

US built and sold a lot of BIG cars, did't build
refineries, stopped Nueclear power, and the Arabs
screwed us,

The same thing happened again,,,,
Everyone wanted BIG SUV's, no drilling for oil,
no new refineries ( thanks to the ENVIR Communists ) and a natural diaster occurs to triggar the fuel crisis. ( can't be to bad though, still see
zillion SUV's lined up at school, 1 suv, 1 kid..

Why this country has allowed a few ( ENVORMENTAL TRAITORS TO POTENTIALLY DESTROY THIS COUNTRY IS BEYOND MY COMPREHENSION )

Lastly: IF Future traders had to up front all there spec money, the price would drop imediatly..
Buying on Margin is anti capitolist...

MY 3 cts. (inflation)

[rjschoolcraft]

Originally posted by rjwest:
MY 3 cts. (inflation) :D :D ;)

Now that's funny! :cool:

This is not the fault of the oil companys. rjwest pretty well nailed it... Until we properly affix blame on the politicians that support facist environmental wackos and vote them out of office, things will get worse.

On the other hand, we are prosperous enough that if I want to drive a Suburban to deliver my kid to school (and I do) I should be able to without some liberal weenie looking down on me. I don't want to ride the bus, so I don't want to make my children ride the bus either.

Take away my wheels and you've taken away one source of my independence.

[GMC Hauler]

Originally posted by ronniejoe:

Take away my wheels and you've taken away one source of my independence. Not the source, my friend, just your expression of....

Your Creator gave you your independence.... and mine...

[DA BIG ONE]

Originally posted by DmaxMaverick:
You guys may have missed the point.

DBO's statement about the $3 bottle of water, isn't about the water, or a comparison with it and fuel.

It's about the mentality of the individual paying that for the water, and apparently OK with that, then complaining about the price of fuel. Yep, it's about the state of mind!

[rjschoolcraft]

Originally posted by GMC Hauler:
Your Creator gave you your independence.... and mine... Very true.

[DA BIG ONE]

Perhaps, that ole song "Back in the saddle again" may become popular again.......

[DA BIG ONE]

Originally posted by ronniejoe:
On top of that, we the people, have to carefully consider how we vote. Let's get the focus right. IMHO it is past time to eliminate the 2 party system and elect those who have read, and understand the bounds the constitution has placed upon government.

[ 09-04-2005, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: DA BIG ONE ]

[eracers999]

Diesel in MO , KC area 2.65 gal, pretty good compared to you all.

Kent

[NH2112]

Originally posted by DA BIG ONE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ronniejoe:
On top of that, we the people, have to carefully consider how we vote. Let's get the focus right. IMHO it is past time to eliminate the 2 party system and elect those who have read, and understand the bounds the constitution has placed upon government. </font>[/QUOTE]Nice ideas in theory, but for the reality all you have to do is look at the "coalition" governments like they have in Italy and several other European nations, along with Israel. Multiple parties, all far enough off ideologically from each other than it's almost impossible to get a simple majority of them to agree on anything. The result? Nothing gets done. Now I'll be the first to agree that in many cases we'd be better off if our Congress didn't do anything - I saw a cool bumper sticker once that read "The Founding Fathers should have stopped after 'Congress shall make no law'" - but those instances are few and far between. Our political parties pretty much represent the demographics of our population, or at least the ones who care enough to vote, and we can't really ask for more than that. If our representatives aren't far enough to the right or to the left for anyone, the only way to change that is to start getting like-minded people involved at lower levels of gov't, and building up a support base for higher and higher levels in time.

[DA BIG ONE]

Originally posted by NH2112:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DA BIG ONE:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ronniejoe:
On top of that, we the people, have to carefully consider how we vote. Let's get the focus right. IMHO it is past time to eliminate the 2 party system and elect those who have read, and understand the bounds the constitution has placed upon government. </font>[/QUOTE]Nice ideas in theory, but for the reality all you have to do is look at the "coalition" governments like they have in Italy and several other European nations, along with Israel. Multiple parties, all far enough off ideologically from each other than it's almost impossible to get a simple majority of them to agree on anything. The result? Nothing gets done. Now I'll be the first to agree that in many cases we'd be better off if our Congress didn't do anything - I saw a cool bumper sticker once that read "The Founding Fathers should have stopped after 'Congress shall make no law'" - but those instances are few and far between. Our political parties pretty much represent the demographics of our population, or at least the ones who care enough to vote, and we can't really ask for more than that. If our representatives aren't far enough to the right or to the left for anyone, the only way to change that is to start getting like-minded people involved at lower levels of gov't, and building up a support base for higher and higher levels in time. </font>[/QUOTE]You are right, it has to from bottom up in your AO, trying to do it from top down is like pi__en up a rope!

I saw an interesting map, like the one that shows Bush country, except it showed the country overwhelmingly not democrat, or republican. Notes with map explained that it represented all other parties along with those registered who no longer vote, even areas of non-registered types. Whole different picture indeed.

Anyway, I don't want to get too off topic here, and wish everyone a good day!

[C.K. Piquup]

There you go pointing fingers,RJ.What was the point of that statement other than showing your pomp?Like I said,nothing will be accomplished by two sides throwing stones accross the fence at one another.I was not putting the entire blame on the oil companies.But,I should have said,"oil industry"to be fair.They are not the sole culprit,just taking advantage of the situation,at least.Was it the environmentalists that caused the other gas crunches and consequential drastic price increases that never went back down.Or,the sugar,paper...,whatever shortages that coincided.Back in`73 I don`t think the environmentalists had a lobby.
As far as the $3.00 a gallon water thing goes.I got that point.The fact is,it would have to have an impact on you entire lifestyle for the cost of the water to disturb anyone the way the cost of fuel is.Besides,when you buy bottled water you are paying for peace of mind.Knowing that,at least,the water is tested regularly.My sister in New Mexico drank alot of tap water,as she was extremely health conscious.She ended up with a large amount of lead in her system and went through hell to get her health back.
I just think it`s a big picture thing here.You can`t look at it with tunnel vision and fix blame.The(extreme)environmentalists have played a part in the overall long-term situation,true.But,there are alot of ingredients in the stew we`re in.

[Dvldog 8793]

Howdy
WOW it gets "snippy" fast sometimes!!!
I think we are all sonsidered "EXTREAMIST" by somebody somewhere!
point is nobody is selling their vehicles to ride bikes(non-motorized :D )
I've thought about horses but there are so few good recipes and they are harder to catch then cows!
said it best IMHO-

Anyway, I don't want to get too off topic here, and wish everyone a good day!

AND

Your Creator gave you your independence.... and mine...

L8r
Conley

[rjschoolcraft]

Originally posted by C.K. Piquup:
There you go pointing fingers,RJ.What was the point of that statement other than showing your pomp?Not pointing fingers, just encouraging critical thinking. Pomp? Pomp and circumstance? My circumstances are bad right now...flat broke (not because of oil problems, by the way) so no pomp here. The knee-jerk reaction is to blame the oil industry when that's not where the problem lies at all.

Back in 73, the problem was with the Arabs and our lack of political foresight to be prepared for when they wanted to get rich off of us.

Liberalism looks at big companies as being the enemy. If we were smart politically, we would encourage and reward big companies to be profitable. We all benefit when our industries are profitable.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

If you hate big oil making ridiculously high profits for their shareholders, I know how to fix their wagon: become a shareholder! Move some of your retirement into oil stocks. :D

And, by the way, Kent, what's up with the completely non-political, non-controversial comments????? Come on, let's all take off the gloves! ;)

Blessings!

[rjwest]

It seems we can fix everything by good old US know how, The exception is when 1 envrio group and a
liberal judge say no...

Let's see, Build a refrinery ( 500 Million )?

OH, Lawyer costs to fight the ENVIRO ANTI'S:
another 500 million ? and 20 years in the courts?

Don't think so...
Ditto on oil stock , we should all buy oil stocks and get rich real quick, than we can afford
10 dollar fuel.?

Rember; Enviromental laws are ultimatly
a poor mans tax...

And CKP you write good. on content???

What does pomp mean ??? don't know if I should
be offended or praised..
( wife calls me a pompas a*s ) is that good ?

[C.K. Piquup]

I felt the remark made by RJ on my 2 cents comment about the oil people being no angels was pompous and arrogant,I might add.It`s as if he was putting my thinking as the cause of the problem.Since I didn`t really state what I actually feel or think one way or another,other than suggesting the blame can be spread to more than one group,I feel it was a bit assumptive.I wasn`t defending "wacko-commie" environmentalists,nor was I blaming the oil industry.Just suggesting that there may be a little more perspective involved here.And,since this is the free nation of America,I felt enabled to express my thoughts,contrary or not,without being pompously insulted and somehow held accountable for the state we`re in.I`m sure there`s alot more to this whole thing than we`ll ever know.And,I don`t think it`s a liberal/conservative thing.There are few exceptions to the fact that no one becomes a politition without big corporation`s help.As far as politics go,it takes a liberal conservative or a conservative liberal to make a difference in this country.That`s how it seems to me.

[rjschoolcraft]

CK,

I apologize for offending you. That was not my intention. Emotions are running high and written comments can be wrongly interpreted as far as tone goes. You appear to be angry with me and for that I apologize. I am not angry with you and apologize if my subsequent comments seemed as though I was.

[Dihrdbowti]

I saw a bumper sticker on a Subaru Legacy the other day. It went something like this.. Send the SUV owners to the middle east to fight... I rolled the window down and said you know you depend more on fuel from the middle east than I do as I can support my local economy as in fast food resteraunts and the farmers of America by purchasing and using BioDiesel.. So go buy a diesel..

[jspringator]

Small diesels permeate the European market. Why are there so few here? A VW Golf with a std transmission gets 49 MPG. No american automaker offers anything like that. Toyota dropped their diesel Camry years ago. Are there restrictions in some states preventing the sale of small diesels?

[Dvldog 8793]

I've always wondered the same thing. America has had a bad taste in her mouth since the 5.7 Olds. I think they are finally coming back. Jeep is offering a Diesel in the liberty and Ford has rumors of a diesel in a Windstar. People are finally waking and smelling the No.2 :D No.2 diesel that is!!!
L8r
Conley

[DmaxMaverick]

Originally posted by James Springate:
Small diesels permeate the European market. Why are there so few here? A VW Golf with a std transmission gets 49 MPG. No american automaker offers anything like that. Toyota dropped their diesel Camry years ago. Are there restrictions in some states preventing the sale of small diesels? Can't buy a new TDI in Kalifornia.

[JohnC]

Originally posted by DmaxMaverick:
Can't buy a new TDI in Kalifornia. [/QB]Or a Jeep...

Or in the people's Republik of New York or the Socialist Republik of Massashusetts...

Any one see a pattern?

;)

[jspringator]

Yes, it is an emmissions issue. I think a cleaner diesel like they have in europe would permit their sale everywhere.

[More Power]

Just when the 2007 diesel fuel is scheduled to be clean enough for all 50 states, CA decides to require a reduction in CO2 emissions, which again knocks diesels out.

Fully 1/3 of all sulfur and smog producing emissions experienced by CA arrive from Asia.

By the way, how many of you know that most (if not nearly all) of the Alaska North Slope oil goes to Asia (and China in particular)?

This is why I oppose drilling in ANWR, and will till all NS oil comes to the US for US consumption.

Jim

[grape]

i have family that works for the core of engineers(uses term loosely). There is absolutely no law in texas that keeps someone from building a new refinery in texas, as a matter of fact it's been since the late 70's he said since a permit was even applied for that was related to the refinery business.......so where's the tree huggers, they need to get to texas quick before somebody builds a refinery...... :rolleyes:

Anybody else have any reasons other than the tree huggers as to why we have no new gasoline refineries?

[NH2112]

Originally posted by DmaxMaverick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by James Springate:
Small diesels permeate the European market. Why are there so few here? A VW Golf with a std transmission gets 49 MPG. No american automaker offers anything like that. Toyota dropped their diesel Camry years ago. Are there restrictions in some states preventing the sale of small diesels? Can't buy a new TDI in Kalifornia. </font>[/QUOTE]The diesel Liberty is out of here for 2007, as its engine won't meet Tier II standards. In fact, the only diesel vehicles sold after 2007 will be light trucks.

[Herman_Bolger]

Just in case anyone's interested, In canada,regular gas $1.35/lt. Thats 1.35x3.8lt /us gal = $5.13/us gal. Diesel $1.09/lt, x 3.8lt/gl=$4.14/us gl. This is in Windsor Ont., just across the creek from Detroit Mi.

[JeepSJ]

Originally posted by grape:
i have family that works for the core of engineers(uses term loosely). There is absolutely no law in texas that keeps someone from building a new refinery in texas, as a matter of fact it's been since the late 70's he said since a permit was even applied for that was related to the refinery business.......so where's the tree huggers, they need to get to texas quick before somebody builds a refinery...... :rolleyes:

Anybody else have any reasons other than the tree huggers as to why we have no new gasoline refineries? What do you think, guys? Do we have enough collective $$ to fund a refinery? We'll produce diesel and bio-d and sell it through our own stations. Anyone know any investment groups that have several hundred million laying around?

[GMC Hauler]

Anyone know any investment groups that have several hundred million laying around? Ask the government, they'll just print more :mad:

[C.K. Piquup]

To answer the question JeepSJ asked,"yeah,the oil companies."
Ronniejoe,thanks.Not angry,just defensive.
We`re all just the "little people" in the eyes of Capital Hill and Wall Street.I`m changing my name to Ben Dover,lol.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

...I still think we could use a "Politics & Your Diesel" forum, so we could maybe keep this stuff in one place. Even if we had such a forum, I'd still recommend the restraint that is (mostly) exercised on our Forums. Heck, my dad's just left of Ted Kennedy, & I still love him. ;)

Blessings!

[TurboDiverArt]

Originally posted by NH2112:
The diesel Liberty is out of here for 2007, as its engine won't meet Tier II standards. In fact, the only diesel vehicles sold after 2007 will be light trucks. Do you (we) know for a fact that there will be no diesels sold in the US other than trucks? Are we saying VW will not be able to sell a TDI that gets 50 MPG in 2008?

I've always wondered when they do these studies if they base it purely on soot or C02 per gallon of fuel or based on soot/C02 per mile. I just don't know how it's calculated. What I'm getting at here is that if a TDI gets close to twice the mileage as a gas engine and puts out slightly more C02 per gallon, what's the problem? Over the course of 100,000 miles it might put out had the over all C02 as a gas engine since it gets twice the mileage.

Maybe this is how it's calculated but I would hope they would take into consideration the efficiency of the engine and not just the emissions per gallon if the gallon goes twice as far and cost less to produce.

Art.

[rjwest]

Turbodriver, Exectly my thoughts..

I would guess, that knowing how the 'pointy heads in EPA think, There is not consideration of total effect ( miles per polutent ).Only what it is exhausted per gallon consumed.
? can't buy a 50 mpg diesel, have to buy a 35 mpg
gas vehicle, can't see that as a plus.

? how much pollution is exhausted by the truck delivering the extra fuel, Think the pointy heads ever thought of that?

[Aryeh Levy]

check out http://www.informationliberation.com/index.php?id=1050

Internal memos of Mobil, Texaco, and Chevron:


A short quote from the internal memos:
(edit - Oligopoly/Monopoly power. Yeesh! )

-- An internal 1996 memorandum from Mobil demonstrates the oil company's successful strategies to keep smaller refiner Powerine from reopening its California refinery. The document makes it clear that much of the hardships created by California's regulations governing refineries came at the urging of the major oil companies and not the environmental organizations blamed by the industry. The other alternative plan discussed in the event Powerine did open the refinery was "....buying all their avails and marketing it ourselves" to insure the lower price fuel didn't get into the market. Read the Mobil memo at http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/fs/5105.pdf

-- An internal Chevron memo states; "A senior energy analyst at the recent API convention warned that if the US petroleum industry doesn't reduce its refining capacity it will never see any substantial increase in refinery margins." It then discussed how major refiners were closing down their refineries. Read the Chevron memo at http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/fs/5103.pdf

-- The Texaco memo disclosed how the industry believed in the mid-1990s that "the most critical factor facing the refining industry on the West Coast is the surplus of refining capacity, and the surplus gasoline production capacity. (The same situation exists for the entire U.S. refining industry.) Supply significantly exceeds demand year-round. This results in very poor refinery margins and very poor refinery financial results. Significant events need to occur to assist in reducing supplies and/or increasing the demand for gasoline. One example of a significant event would be the elimination of mandates for oxygenate addition to gasoline. Given a choice, oxygenate usage would go down, and gasoline supplies would go down accordingly. (Much effort is being exerted to see this happen in the Pacific Northwest.)" As a result of such pressure, Washington State eliminated the ethanol mandate - requiring greater quantities of refined supply to fill the gasoline volume occupied by ethanol. Read the Texaco memo at http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/energy/fs/5104.pdf

[ 09-09-2005, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Aryeh Levy ]

[NH2112]

Originally posted by TurboDiverArt:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by NH2112:
The diesel Liberty is out of here for 2007, as its engine won't meet Tier II standards. In fact, the only diesel vehicles sold after 2007 will be light trucks. Do you (we) know for a fact that there will be no diesels sold in the US other than trucks? Are we saying VW will not be able to sell a TDI that gets 50 MPG in 2008?

I've always wondered when they do these studies if they base it purely on soot or C02 per gallon of fuel or based on soot/C02 per mile. I just don't know how it's calculated. What I'm getting at here is that if a TDI gets close to twice the mileage as a gas engine and puts out slightly more C02 per gallon, what's the problem? Over the course of 100,000 miles it might put out had the over all C02 as a gas engine since it gets twice the mileage.

Maybe this is how it's calculated but I would hope they would take into consideration the efficiency of the engine and not just the emissions per gallon if the gallon goes twice as far and cost less to produce.

Art. </font>[/QUOTE]I was going by what I read in a Car & Driver article on the diesel Liberty. Maybe I shouldn't take their word as gospel, though, since in the letters to the editor they replied to a letter by saying "diesels dont necessarily last longer than gasoline engines" and also state that no diesels meet Tier II standards when I know for a fact that the new 4BTs do. Maybe they were referring to diesels in light trucks and cars.

[mklein]

Speaking from one point of view, GEP is looking at options for keeping our engine emission legal in the states for the upcoming low emission regulations. Right now the only two options appear to be urea and costly aftertreatment systems. There is no urea distrubution system in place, and the aftertreatments add thousands to a vehicles cost (in addition to the extra cost normally associated with a diesel option). That is one part of the picture.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

My information is at least a decade old (probably closer to two decades), but it