View Full Version : LBZ Hot and Loss of Power
Just got back from Colorado trip and am I disappointed and concerned with the way the truck performed. The trailer (5th wheel) grossed is about 12,000lbs. and the truck has the Edge w/att. ,cold air from the air dam, and Banks 4" cat back. The truck pulled great stock but I never knew what the EGT's were before the attitude so they could have possibly been hot???; but I never noticed any indication from the stock temp.guage that the water temp was hot. First time pulling with the Edge alone I was surprised that the EGT's were consistantly in the 1000's-1200's and the pulling power was the same as stock or slighly less but I attributed it to the fact that I had gone to the 265 tires since the last time we had towed. Never got a EGT alarm or temp alarm set at 1300 210 respectively.
Now with the cold air (and K&N in the stock box) and the Banks we are often over 1300 EGT (observed high of 1328) and water temp of 232; and towing power is decidedly down needing at least one lower gear for all tough pulls or wind problems. I set the limits higher just to avoid the constant alarms and just keep a closer eye on the attitude displays. Going to the stock setting on the Edge shows little difference; maybe just a tad hotter so I feel that the Edge is not the problem. I even put the stock filter back in for the trip home to see if maybe the possible change in flow or flow patterns was messing with the MAF (the K&N draw from the perimeter rather than the end as the stock Donaldson). The truck pulled better but we were considerably lighter so I can't for sure say that there was an improvement.
I can't imagine what is going on; to say the least I am highly perplexed and disappointed as the mods were intended to make things cooler and if power was increased, so be it. Also there is nothing like impressing the wife with the the great improvements that you have make with the substantial money outlay!!!!!!
I could sure use some help here; right now I'm considering changing back to the stock exhaust to see if that is the problem but that is a hassal especially considering the need to hook up and tow and travel several hundred miles to duplicate conditions. Really can't believe that could possibly be the problem anyway.
I'm wondering if I've possibly got an injecter (ers) problem; there is no excessive smoke. Maybe with some bad ones the rest have to work too hard??? Seems farfetched.
Heeeeelp!!!!!!
More Power
08-13-2007, 14:28
It's tough to compare before/after mods if the outside air temperature, wind direction and possibly fuel quality (likely) has changed between comparisons.
I will say that until the driver gets used to it, installing an EGT gauge can be alarming at first, especially for those who tow. Towing a big trailer on the flats at 70-mph will produce an EGT of about 1000 degrees - assuming calm winds. Add in a crosswind, headwind or a slight grade, and the EGT can climb even higher.
Having the boost pressure and EGT info will allow you to see the relationship between that info and truck performance while towing. In time, you'll begin to see how gearing (engine rpm), boost and EGT are interrelated, and that you can manage those factors to produce better performance.
Assuming equal environmental conditions and fuel quality, I'd be surprised if the EGT didn't decrease a small amount with the addition of a more free-flowing exhaust system and air filter. The oiled gause and foam air filters can contaminate the MAF sensor, if the filter was over-oiled to begin with. Might be worth a shot to clean the MAF just in case.
Perhaps Kennedy could provide some clue as to whether there might be some interaction with the EGR as a result of opening the exhaust/intake.
Jim
Mark Rinker
08-13-2007, 15:05
Since you don't have a signature block yet, I can't tell all the mods you've applied, but wondering what you have done to increase boost pressure? You don't have to see black smoke to have unburned fuel increasing EGTs as a result of too-low boost.
Boost stick time, I thinks - if there is such an animal for the LBZ. JK?
It's tough to compare before/after mods if the outside air temperature, wind direction and possibly fuel quality (likely) has changed between comparisons.
I will say that until the driver gets used to it, installing an EGT gauge can be alarming at first, especially for those who tow. Towing a big trailer on the flats at 70-mph will produce an EGT of about 1000 degrees - assuming calm winds. Add in a crosswind, headwind or a slight grade, and the EGT can climb even higher.
Having the boost pressure and EGT info will allow you to see the relationship between that info and truck performance while towing. In time, you'll begin to see how gearing (engine rpm), boost and EGT are interrelated, and that you can manage those factors to produce better performance.
Assuming equal environmental conditions and fuel quality, I'd be surprised if the EGT didn't decrease a small amount with the addition of a more free-flowing exhaust system and air filter. The oiled gause and foam air filters can contaminate the MAF sensor, if the filter was over-oiled to begin with. Might be worth a shot to clean the MAF just in case.
Perhaps Kennedy could provide some clue as to whether there might be some interaction with the EGR as a result of opening the exhaust/intake.
Jim
I'm surprised that you suspect that the EGT would rise with the addition of more air and the freer flowing exhaust but that certainly seems to be the case in spite of the advertising claims to the contrary. Ironic that my goal was primarily to lower the heat load an like a bumkin did quite the opposite and spent some good money and effort in the ill concieved pursuit of my goal. It still amazes me however that the exhaust and added air could alter the EGT temps. as well as the coolant temp. so dramaticly. I feel confident in saying that it made at least 60 degrees higher EGT and 12 degrees higher coolant temps. under the same or maybe a tad less demanding towing circumstances.
Are you confident that injectors are not in the equation?
Jim
Forgot to mention how pleased I am with the added benifit of the loss of power that the Banks and or added air has provided. Guess Banks has a special dyno to obtain their amazing results.
Since you don't have a signature block yet, I can't tell all the mods you've applied, but wondering what you have done to increase boost pressure? You don't have to see black smoke to have unburned fuel increasing EGTs as a result of too-low boost.
Boost stick time, I thinks - if there is such an animal for the LBZ. JK?
The only mods are the ones mentioned in the original post. Nothing to increase the boost other than the edge----not sure how added boost would cool things down but do see how the power would improve. Still don't see how I can be down on towing power from stock unless the mods are totally counterproductive which I now suspect.
jbarker@bankspower
08-14-2007, 15:24
Did you modify anything in the air box itself other then the filter (new ducting, vents ect.)? We have seen several of these trucks experience an over active EGR valve when a high flow air cleaner is used without relocating the MAF sensor. What can happen, on some trucks, is the signal over the MAF increases (because of the performance exhaust and high flow air filter) to the point that the EGR begins to open at throttle settings and speeds outside of it's normal opperation. Obviously the result is your truck swallowing more hot exhaust which can cuase the problems your discribing. Some will also throw a CEL as well.Cleaning the MAF is also a good idea. If you would like some more detailed info on this PM me and i can e-mail it to you.
killerbee
08-14-2007, 18:03
...cold air from the air dam, and Banks 4" cat back. ... Now with the cold air (and K&N in the stock box) and the Banks we are often over 1300 EGT (observed high of 1328) and water temp of 232; and towing power is decidedly down ... I even put the stock filter back in for the trip home to see if maybe the possible change in flow or flow patterns was messing with the MAF (the K&N draw from the perimeter rather than the end as the stock Donaldson). The truck pulled better
I am a little confused about what you have for an intake, but I will say. the airbox temperature is what you really need to focus on. Restriction in the factory element is close to nothing when compared to the other induction losses. But if you modified an intake that was designed to keep air relatively cool, and you are now, say, 40 degrees hotter at intake, you have your power loss, in the form of less dense charge. Egt goes up with this IAT increase as well
I'm surprised that you suspect that the EGT would rise with the addition of more air and the freer flowing exhaust but that certainly seems to be the case in spite of the advertising claims to the contrary. Ironic that my goal was primarily to lower the heat load an like a bumkin did quite the opposite and spent some good money and effort in the ill concieved pursuit of my goal. It still amazes me however that the exhaust and added air could alter the EGT temps. as well as the coolant temp. so dramaticly. I feel confident in saying that it made at least 60 degrees higher EGT and 12 degrees higher coolant temps.
again, same thing. But to clarify, an intake element change or intake modification does not represent "more air". The compressor is going to take what it needs, and a little more or less restriction will not change that volume. More often than not, those purchasing KN products, reduce the performance level of the motor. Intake charge density is the reason. Most assume that because it is not free, it must be an improvement. Categorically, with that company, you roll the dice. I would say, that they are the armpit of the aftermarket.
not sure how added boost would cool things down but do see how the power would improve. Still don't see how I can be down on towing power from stock unless the mods are totally counterproductive which I now suspect.
it doesn't cool things down. Added boost does just the opposite, from increased COT, to increased IAT2. It just supplies more of the warmer air product as increased density.
All in all, your performance should be better with the stock intake, with all panels intact. If you were using an oiled element, then it would be a good idea to clean the MAF sensor.
I personally don't believe that egr has any impact on your observations, as egr should be completely closed at the power settings you are referencing. But if it is stuck, then power would/could be reduced. But you should throw a code if that is the case, IIRC.
I am a little confused about what you have for an intake, but I will say. the airbox temperature is what you really need to focus on. Restriction in the factory element is close to nothing when compared to the other induction losses. But if you modified an intake that was designed to keep air relatively cool, and you are now, say, 40 degrees hotter at intake, you have your power loss, in the form of less dense charge. Egt goes up with this IAT increase as well
The intake mod was merely removing the passenger side recovery hook and fabing a plemum there. From the plemum running 3" alum. dryer vent up and thru an enlarged hole behind the headlight and into the factory air box. The only modification to the air box was removing some of the material around the deflector vane area but leaving the vanes intact so that they will still direct the original air supply to the outside of the housing. The new supplies path is more across the face of the filter rather into it so that if any water might get that high it will have to hit the airbox side rather than the filter. Then additional sealing was done on the factory attempt to futher block off hot air into the box. (I won't use the K&N any more.)
again, same thing. But to clarify, an intake element change or intake modification does not represent "more air". The compressor is going to take what it needs, and a little more or less restriction will not change that volume. More often than not, those purchasing KN products, reduce the performance level of the motor. Intake charge density is the reason. Most assume that because it is not free, it must be an improvement. Categorically, with that company, you roll the dice. I would say, that they are the armpit of the aftermarket.
it doesn't cool things down. Added boost does just the opposite, from increased COT, to increased IAT2. It just supplies more of the warmer air product as increased density.
All in all, your performance should be better with the stock intake, with all panels intact. If you were using an oiled element, then it would be a good idea to clean the MAF sensor.
I personally don't believe that egr has any impact on your observations, as egr should be completely closed at the power settings you are referencing. But if it is stuck, then power would/could be reduced. But you should throw a code if that is the case, IIRC.
Good input but I believe there is little doubt that the problem is a good bit more than that. I guess one of those things you would have to experience yourself to understand how badly the truck is pulling now in comparison to when only the Edge was installed. Since no one as even made mention of it I guess my idea of injectors is out of the equation.
Did you modify anything in the air box itself other then the filter (new ducting, vents ect.)? We have seen several of these trucks experience an over active EGR valve when a high flow air cleaner is used without relocating the MAF sensor. What can happen, on some trucks, is the signal over the MAF increases (because of the performance exhaust and high flow air filter) to the point that the EGR begins to open at throttle settings and speeds outside of it's normal opperation. Obviously the result is your truck swallowing more hot exhaust which can cuase the problems your discribing. Some will also throw a CEL as well.Cleaning the MAF is also a good idea. If you would like some more detailed info on this PM me and i can e-mail it to you.
The intake mod was merely removing the passenger side recovery hook and fabing a plemum there. From the plemum running 3" alum. dryer vent up and thru an enlarged hole behind the headlight and into the factory air box. The only modification to the air box was removing some of the material around the deflector vane area but leaving the vanes intact so that they will still direct the original air supply to the outside of the housing. The new supplies path is more across the face of the filter rather into it so that if any water might get that high it will have to hit the airbox side rather than the filter. Then additional sealing was done on the factory attempt to futher block off hot air into the box. (I won't use the K&N any more.)
Thanks for the interest as I am using the Banks exhaust.
Talked to Jeff Barker of Banks Engineering today, who offered a lot of insight on what the problem could be and I believe we could be on the right track to fixing the problem. Jeff is very knowlegable and helpful plus has the engineering staff as backup if needed. This is impressive support from a manufacturer that is obviously aware of their reputation and the value of customer relations. I have a good level of comfort now that the exhaust system is not the cause of the loss of power. There are so many things to consider when modifying a design; complications as mine can be tough and hard to understand or harder yet to know where to start to remedy. It is obvious that there needs to be more clear information out there to access before any project is started so that the pitfalls can be avoided or the possibles are incountered.
My problems sure stumped those here; Banks seems to be an excelllent place to start from what I've learned today. Honest straight forward information.
killerbee
08-16-2007, 18:34
My problems sure stumped those here; Banks seems to be an excelllent place to start from what I've learned today. Honest straight forward information.
and....:confused:
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Care to share this straight forward information...and all you have learned?
QUOTE=killerbee;219900]and....:confused:
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Care to share this straight forward information...and all you have learned?[/QUOTE]
Sorry, thought that might stir some more serious evaluation, as this has to be a rather common result of the modifications that I have done and their end result. Seems cause and effect are directly (are so it seems) related to the oft discussed EGR-----good, bad or ugly. What comes out of this as an end result might very well put an end to the debate, and ultimately provide indesputable evidence about the infamous EGR. Futher input might provide revealing in the end as it seems both sides have serious flaws.[
killerbee
08-16-2007, 20:03
I'm lost...not uncommon for me though.;)
With your air box mod does the engine have to get ALL of it's air through the tube from the tow hook, or can it get air from other areas as well?
The Edge Juice adds boost. I haven't dug in deep enough to know just how "mapped" it is or if it's a straight line fooler or what levels it does so in, but you should have an idea if there was increased boost in your setting. Added boost requires added exhaust drive psi. Added exhaust drive psi enhances EGR flow.
On the cat back exhaust, I doubt it did much more than drain yor wallet and change the look of the truck. The cat is what holds the heat.
A well tuned Dmax pulling on a grade may well peek over 1400°f for a bit. This doesn't seem to hurt them at all. I'm not concerned about EGT until it sustains over 1400°f which generally does not happen as most grades aren't sttep or long enough. The worst I see is when the cruise control gets behind and floors it causing a downshift...
Talked to Jeff Barker of Banks Engineering today, who offered a lot of insight on what the problem could be and I believe we could be on the right track to fixing the problem. Jeff is very knowlegable and helpful plus has the engineering staff as backup if needed. This is impressive support from a manufacturer that is obviously aware of their reputation and the value of customer relations. I have a good level of comfort now that the exhaust system is not the cause of the loss of power. There are so many things to consider when modifying a design; complications as mine can be tough and hard to understand or harder yet to know where to start to remedy. It is obvious that there needs to be more clear information out there to access before any project is started so that the pitfalls can be avoided or the possibles are incountered.
My problems sure stumped those here; Banks seems to be an excelllent place to start from what I've learned today. Honest straight forward information.
Whew must have been some really good sunshine...
Whew must have been some really good sunshine...
__
I actually thought it was and hopefully it gets me on the right track. It seems more pertinent than anything I've seen since starting this thread.
The basic scenario is that the EGR is staying open when the load is high; the symptoms seem to agree with that idea. That of course remains to be seen and I'm not sure how to prove it other than closing the valve and trying to duplicate the loads with the trailer. Thats not real easy because the closest tough grade is about 300 miles away. Wind load will have to be the way it is done and they come fairly cose to createing the same load and there is no great shortage of wind here in west Texas. I am thinking of making a spacer block to render the EGR valve inoperable. I understand also that relocation of the MAF can keep the valve shut, that might be a good project.
As for my air supply it draws thru the 3" supply in the recovery hook hole as well as the original holes into the fender well which by the way have been enlarged. The 3" is just an additional inlet.
I'd still value your input if anything else comes to mind.
I sometimes just get frustrated when so many seem to want to read things into what is being said or asked or skirt the crux of the issue.
killerbee
08-17-2007, 19:17
If you want to verify the idea, get a temperature logger, and put one TC probe, in the cold boost tube, and another downstream of the EGR. Any difference between them will represent your proof for or against.
Also, EFI can log EGR position IIRC. There is a position sensor as i recall. Don't get frustrated, if you speak in riddles, you get riddles back, a little poke. I for one am interested in your find, and I also find banks to be highly knowledgeable.
Destroyer
08-17-2007, 19:37
It's tough to compare before/after mods if the outside air temperature, wind direction and possibly fuel quality (likely) has changed between comparisons.
I will say that until the driver gets used to it, installing an EGT gauge can be alarming at first, especially for those who tow. Towing a big trailer on the flats at 70-mph will produce an EGT of about 1000 degrees - assuming calm winds. Add in a crosswind, headwind or a slight grade, and the EGT can climb even higher.
Having the boost pressure and EGT info will allow you to see the relationship between that info and truck performance while towing. In time, you'll begin to see how gearing (engine rpm), boost and EGT are interrelated, and that you can manage those factors to produce better performance.
Assuming equal environmental conditions and fuel quality, I'd be surprised if the EGT didn't decrease a small amount with the addition of a more free-flowing exhaust system and air filter. The oiled gause and foam air filters can contaminate the MAF sensor, if the filter was over-oiled to begin with. Might be worth a shot to clean the MAF just in case.
Perhaps Kennedy could provide some clue as to whether there might be some interaction with the EGR as a result of opening the exhaust/intake.
Jim
No one has any business towing anything at 70 mph from a pure safety stand point. Did you use the Tow haul mode on the Trans shifter? This mode helps change many things one of them being the Fan speed which helps cooling and how everything operates that has to do with the Trans and Engine.
If you want to verify the idea, get a temperature logger, and put one TC probe, in the cold boost tube, and another downstream of the EGR. Any difference between them will represent your proof for or against.
Also, EFI can log EGR position IIRC. There is a position sensor as i recall. Don't get frustrated, if you speak in riddles, you get riddles back, a little poke. I for one am interested in your find, and I also find banks to be highly knowledgeable.
I believe that the position sensor is in the motor drive itself; if so everything should look perfectly normal. I would also suspect that the spacer block will need a spring and stop to replicate the action of the actual valve.
steak2k1
08-20-2007, 20:21
Did you use the Tow haul mode on the Trans shifter? This mode helps change many things one of them being the Fan speed which helps cooling and how everything operates that has to do with the Trans and Engine.
EXACTLY. I'm surprised that it took what, 15 posts before anyone even mentioned this little puppy. TOW HAUL works like a charm..and does pretty much as noted above more or less. In tow haul as I have come to learn, the Torque converter Locks up in 2nd. That will keep / tranny temps down and also will get your engine fan going sooner...at least that's what I found....pulling a trailer.
EGR.....
uh..OK in Regards to the EGR: Block it - Finger it and forget it.!
The last thing your motor needs is hot gases, extra soot and crap going into your intake as opposed to Oxygen. (IMOP)...But is it just me or does this not seem a NO BRAINER.? yea I know and have heard all about the potential warranty issues for those under 36K...ta yadda yadda. EGR is for Emissions only - period. If you want your engine to stay healthy then one of the things you can do along with regular fluid chages and other maintenace is to block this item. A "fingerstick" (electronic device), can be added to fool the ECM into thinking the EGR valve is operating normally. Works perfect and no soot/crap into motor.
EGT's
1300F on EGT is no major deal. Given you have done some work to improve air flow and added an exhaust mod(shoulda gone turbo back IMOP though:o if it is/was possible in your area). You did not mention where your Pyro is located...?? That obviously will have an effect as to whether the information is relevant or not. I have mine Pre-Turbo at least 12-14" from the Turbo and have run 1380F on a couple of occasions, But that was on 6-8% grades going slow <20mph and fairly sharp turns...IE: Golden BC on the TransCanada.
Interesting comment on the cat keeping the heat in. Although I never thought about it, that makes perfect sense.
just my .02
Rgds,
stk
killerbee
08-20-2007, 21:11
...
(IMOP)...But is it just me or does this not seem a NO BRAINER.? ...
just my .02
This one is hard to resist, LMAO.
What does IMOP mean? (I ask with caution :) )
Whew must have been some really good sunshine...
__
I actually thought it was and hopefully it gets me on the right track. It seems more pertinent than anything I've seen since starting this thread.
The basic scenario is that the EGR is staying open when the load is high; the symptoms seem to agree with that idea. That of course remains to be seen and I'm not sure how to prove it other than closing the valve and trying to duplicate the loads with the trailer. Thats not real easy because the closest tough grade is about 300 miles away. Wind load will have to be the way it is done and they come fairly cose to createing the same load and there is no great shortage of wind here in west Texas. I am thinking of making a spacer block to render the EGR valve inoperable. I understand also that relocation of the MAF can keep the valve shut, that might be a good project.
As for my air supply it draws thru the 3" supply in the recovery hook hole as well as the original holes into the fender well which by the way have been enlarged. The 3" is just an additional inlet.
I'd still value your input if anything else comes to mind.
I sometimes just get frustrated when so many seem to want to read things into what is being said or asked or skirt the crux of the issue.
OK, no sunshine up the wazoo from me, just roll up the sleeves and dig in up to the armpits.
Question: Does your Edge increase boost at the power level being used?
Suggestion: If you can ditch the cat then do it. A cat back system is a waste of money IMHO. Increasing power with the cat still in place can definitely increase EGR flow as can increased boost.
OK, no sunshine up the wazoo from me, just roll up the sleeves and dig in up to the armpits.
Question: Does your Edge increase boost at the power level being used?
Suggestion: If you can ditch the cat then do it. A cat back system is a waste of money IMHO. Increasing power with the cat still in place can definitely increase EGR flow as can increased boost.
As for the edge increasing boost in the mileage mode which is the only one I use I would say that it does to some extent from my observation; guess but only guess it's 5lbs. ,hope thays not critical as to where you are going with this.
As for the cat I'd rather not do that; remember that my goal is to lower EGT's ......not for power, just for piece of mind when towing heavy and not having to let up just because the load is high......I really hate having to back off. I tend to agree that the cat deletion would lower somewhat but lets not go there. Also remember that I was not having the excessive heat or power loss problems before the addition of the Banks and the added air inlet. That to me is what is so strange and discouraging as it was so counterproduct to what I was trying to achieve and from what you read the opposite should be true. You can imagine my angst the first time I towed after installing what I trulely believed would keep the EGT's in the 1100 low 1200 range. The loss of power was an added benefit that I was amazed with when towing and gauls the**** out of me. Hope you don't say just go back stock and forget it. I do think there's hope from Banks suggestion that the EGR is staying open at the throttle settings that towing hard require, nut I can't imagine that there could be that much power loss from that alone. help
killerbee
08-21-2007, 19:36
I do think there's hope from Banks suggestion that the EGR is staying open at the throttle settings that towing hard require, nut I can't imagine that there could be that much power loss from that alone. help
have you created a signature yet, with all your mods IN DETAIL?
I haven't seen what Bosch is controlling EGR to yet, BUT if you increase boost you increase drive pressure and therefore could increase EGR flow.
As for the cat back system, I doubt it alters much at all. Just enough to set of a SES light for EGR flow in most cases.
killerbee
08-22-2007, 07:51
my goal is to lower EGT's ......not for power, just for piece of mind when towing heavy and not having to let up just because the load is high......I really hate having to back off.
things that increase EGT:
excess boost (drive pressure)
poor stack airflow
incorrect timing (too much retard)
exhaust stream resistance, like VVT vanes, CAT, downpipe constrictions etc
excessively hot IAT1 or IAT2
excess fuel pulse
poor fuel quality
undersized CAC plumbing (boost tubes)
hot coolant
elevation
I am sure there are more
things that increase EGT:
excess boost (drive pressure)
poor stack airflow
incorrect timing (too much retard)
exhaust stream resistance, like VVT vanes, CAT, downpipe constrictions etc
excessively hot IAT1 or IAT2
excess fuel pulse
poor fuel quality
undersized CAC plumbing (boost tubes)
hot coolant
elevation
I am sure there are more
I coulda swore you were just preaching that too much advance contributes to high engine temps. Or was it too much advance heats the coolant? But not EGT does not affect EGT? Or was that visa versa?
Now you have me confused:confused: Good thing we have guys like you to keep us in line...
OK, no sunshine up the wazoo from me, just roll up the sleeves and dig in up to the armpits.
Question: Does your Edge increase boost at the power level being used?
Suggestion: If you can ditch the cat then do it. A cat back system is a waste of money IMHO. Increasing power with the cat still in place can definitely increase EGR flow as can increased boost.
Second response to your post; my first didn't generate a lot of "rolling up the sleeves" help that gets me on the right track thou I admit I was sure hoping for that, like a revelation I guess!
Anyway I wonder what your thoughts are on the idea that the EGR staying open too much under heavy load (supposedly brought on by the cold air and Banks) has to do with my problem, if any. Can that alone account for high exhaust and coolant temps. as well as loss of power to the tune of one to two gears difference needed to pull the load?
If that is the case then I assume that your EGR block would bring back the lost pulling power and bring down the temps.?????? Looking at your site on the problems with the LLY and the possible remedies I see that the EGR block is one of them; but I'm not sure how far reaching the effect is on power, especially if it is to the extent that mine is. Also I find it interesting that I have seen no other posts on the LBZ that are like mine; I'm just lucky I suppose. Also I find it interesting that the people that have block the EGR don't really claim any real power gains or heat declines but they may not tow real heavy which might account for that.
I see that you did not comment on my idea of leaving the EGR motor drive operational and just spacing it away from the valve so that the valve did not open so I suppose that idea is not feasible???? In reading on your site I got the impression that the MAF reading might be the falacy of the idea, not sure, is that the problem or are there other contribitors?
Banks engineers told me that relocating the MAF to a position two inches upstream of the Turbo inlet housing would in effect keep the EGR valve closed in all situations; what is your take on that?
Think I'll go ahead and order your EGR kit in anticipation of a thumbs up on it fixing the problems------Yeah Yeah Yeah-----I think the Beatles said something to that effect.
cabletech
08-25-2007, 16:34
I have my EGR blocked & Fingered. I don't notice any engine temp difference in the summer (empty or pulling a 10k 5er). In the winter it takes longer for my truck to warm up. So the EGR being blocked must have some affect on engine temp. It also makes the oil a lot cleaner.
Jay
killerbee
08-25-2007, 16:35
you are chasing a problem that has not been demonstrated to exist...a ghost.
If the EGR was malfunctioning, your loss of power would be accompanied by a decrease in EGT. That is what happens when fresh oxygen is displaced by oxygen deficient exhaust, less combustion, less combustion heat.
Your description from the outset describes what many people get when they don a KN intake.
I don't have a K&N intake.
I have my EGR blocked & Fingered. I don't notice any engine temp difference in the summer (empty or pulling a 10k 5er). In the winter it takes longer for my truck to warm up. So the EGR being blocked must have some affect on engine temp. It also makes the oil a lot cleaner.
Jay
I agree that blocking in and of itself should not have much effect on temps.
My hope is that with my exhaust and intake air mod that the EGR is constantly staying open under heavy load as is Banks idea on the matter. I think in that scenario heat would build contributing to a loss of power. Could this lead to the rather substantial loss of power as is the case with mine---I don't know and it seems no one else does either. It does seem feasible that with the two factors compounding eachs adverse effect that the block might be the solution; I wish I knew.
It may well be that I have to go back to bone stock to bring the truck back to where it towed so well. If that is the case it really doesn't say much for all the hype on the merits of mods; that is, if you want to maintain the towing prowess of the original design.
killerbee
08-26-2007, 11:26
If you can find someone with EFILive, the best thing to do, is log a tow run for a minute or 2. Then go back to stock and repeat. You will need to be sure all the performance PID's are logged. Fuel pulse, actual and desired pressure, MAF, actual and commanded boost, actual and commanded vane position, main timing, speed, throttle position, rpm...that covers most of them.
OK, no sunshine up the wazoo from me, just roll up the sleeves and dig in up to the armpits.
Question: Does your Edge increase boost at the power level being used?
Suggestion: If you can ditch the cat then do it. A cat back system is a waste of money IMHO. Increasing power with the cat still in place can definitely increase EGR flow as can increased boost.
Second response to your post; my first didn't generate a lot of "rolling up the sleeves" help that gets me on the right track thou I admit I was sure hoping for that, like a revelation I guess!
Anyway I wonder what your thoughts are on the idea that the EGR staying open too much under heavy load (supposedly brought on by the cold air and Banks) has to do with my problem, if any. Can that alone account for high exhaust and coolant temps. as well as loss of power to the tune of one to two gears difference needed to pull the load?
If that is the case then I assume that your EGR block would bring back the lost pulling power and bring down the temps.?????? Looking at your site on the problems with the LLY and the possible remedies I see that the EGR block is one of them; but I'm not sure how far reaching the effect is on power, especially if it is to the extent that mine is. Also I find it interesting that I have seen no other posts on the LBZ that are like mine; I'm just lucky I suppose. Also I find it interesting that the people that have block the EGR don't really claim any real power gains or heat declines but they may not tow real heavy which might account for that.
I see that you did not comment on my idea of leaving the EGR motor drive operational and just spacing it away from the valve so that the valve did not open so I suppose that idea is not feasible???? In reading on your site I got the impression that the MAF reading might be the falacy of the idea, not sure, is that the problem or are there other contribitors?
Banks engineers told me that relocating the MAF to a position two inches upstream of the Turbo inlet housing would in effect keep the EGR valve closed in all situations; what is your take on that?
Think I'll go ahead and order your EGR kit in anticipation of a thumbs up on it fixing the problems------Yeah Yeah Yeah-----I think the Beatles said something to that effect.
You did not answer my question. I haven't looked too hard at what the Edge does or doesn't modify boost on that tune. If there is boost added this could enhance EGR flow.
As for the intake, I'd suggest putting the stock intake on with teh MAF sensor located where it is supposed to be. Relocating the MAF sensor can mess with the airflow patterns across it which will affect calibration.
I think I already said thisI haven't seen which criteria Bosch is using to drive the EGR commands, but I seriously doubt that relocating the MAF sensor will cease it's operation.
Our blocker package is an inexpensive way to take care of EGR issues, but myself I prefer to take care of this in the tuning. No need to molest the wires then...
You did not answer my question. I haven't looked too hard at what the Edge does or doesn't modify boost on that tune. If there is boost added this could enhance EGR flow.
As for the intake, I'd suggest putting the stock intake on with teh MAF sensor located where it is supposed to be. Relocating the MAF sensor can mess with the airflow patterns across it which will affect calibration.
I think I already said thisI haven't seen which criteria Bosch is using to drive the EGR commands, but I seriously doubt that relocating the MAF sensor will cease it's operation.
Our blocker package is an inexpensive way to take care of EGR issues, but myself I prefer to take care of this in the tuning. No need to molest the wires then...
I tried to answer it to the best of my limited knowledge:
"As for the edge increasing boost in the mileage mode which is the only one I use I would say that it does to some extent from my observation; guess but only guess it's 5lbs. ,hope thays not critical as to where you are going with this."
Sorry that was the best I could do but I think 5 lbs is pretty close.
As I have explained before the 'intake is stock' with the one exception of an additional three inch supply that feeds from the recovery hook hole, the MAF is also in its stock position. Banks suggested relocating, but I have not done that as of yet.
The answer I was most hoping to get from you; but didn't, was if the EGR staying open under high load would or could account for the high temps. and loss of power.
I'm at a real loss as to why everyone seems to avoid this one! I can see why there might not be any data on this but you would thing it would be something that would at least generate some educated speculation.
There is another thought that came to mind after reading 'Killere Bee's' last post. I remember checking the load percentage when towing the first time with only the Edge installed. As I recall it averaged in the mid seventys to mid eighty's and I think the highest I saw was about 92 percent. Now with the air and exhaust the average is in the 90 percent range and it is common to see it 98 to 100 percent. This should be a good indecation of the loss of power as the readings were from the same highways at about the same conditions; maybe a bit hotter ambients with the Edge alone.
From 'some' of the responses if have gotten I get the impression that the questions are looked on as if I were a pest. I assure you my quest for a solution is entirely honest; I just want my truck to be able to tow again as it did before.
If you can find someone with EFILive, the best thing to do, is log a tow run for a minute or 2. Then go back to stock and repeat. You will need to be sure all the performance PID's are logged. Fuel pulse, actual and desired pressure, MAF, actual and commanded boost, actual and commanded vane position, main timing, speed, throttle position, rpm...that covers most of them.
At this point thats more of a chore than I care to get into not to mention don't have that much time; remember 300 to 400 miles to a good grade test, and then you've got to come back.
From 'some' of the responses if have gotten I get the impression that the questions are looked on as if I were a pest. I assure you my quest for a solution is entirely honest; I just want my truck to be able to tow again as it did before.
If this in any way refers to me please come right out and say it.
I tried to answer it to the best of my limited knowledge:
"As for the edge increasing boost in the mileage mode which is the only one I use I would say that it does to some extent from my observation; guess but only guess it's 5lbs. ,hope thays not critical as to where you are going with this."
Sorry that was the best I could do but I think 5 lbs is pretty close.
As I have explained before the 'intake is stock' with the one exception of an additional three inch supply that feeds from the recovery hook hole, the MAF is also in its stock position. Banks suggested relocating, but I have not done that as of yet.
The answer I was most hoping to get from you; but didn't, was if the EGR staying open under high load would or could account for the high temps. and loss of power.
I'm at a real loss as to why everyone seems to avoid this one! I can see why there might not be any data on this but you would thing it would be something that would at least generate some educated speculation.
There is another thought that came to mind after reading 'Killere Bee's' last post. I remember checking the load percentage when towing the first time with only the Edge installed. As I recall it averaged in the mid seventys to mid eighty's and I think the highest I saw was about 92 percent. Now with the air and exhaust the average is in the 90 percent range and it is common to see it 98 to 100 percent. This should be a good indecation of the loss of power as the readings were from the same highways at about the same conditions; maybe a bit hotter ambients with the Edge alone.
From 'some' of the responses if have gotten I get the impression that the questions are looked on as if I were a pest. I assure you my quest for a solution is entirely honest; I just want my truck to be able to tow again as it did before.
EGR typically operates at a very low percentage of opening. Much as I hate the EGR system I doubt it is responsible for what you are seeing especially if you are not rolling black smoke. That said contrary to 'other' posts, I believe that increased EGR flow under load would likely INCREASE your EGT somewhat as it approaches an over-rich condition without enough air to burn clean. This can be tricky though as different levels of rich/lean can push EGT in different directions.
My 2007 runs a tune with stock exhaust, stock intake, etc. I haven't been out in nasty conditions of the west, but I've had customers out (many have other mods) with excellent results...
If this in any way refers to me please come right out and say it.
Yeah, I suppose to some small extent it does; but at least you do respond. I love my truck and just want to know in what direction to go to get it fixed. I just haven't seen any advice that would be even a start. What the edge tech advised seem to be in your opinion the wrong thing so I'm really grasping for straws here. I can't believe someone can't come up with an idea of how you can loose that much pulling power. I'd still like to hear your take on the effects of an open EGR valve on power (if that is the case with mine).
EGR typically operates at a very low percentage of opening. Much as I hate the EGR system I doubt it is responsible for what you are seeing especially if you are not rolling black smoke. That said contrary to 'other' posts, I believe that increased EGR flow under load would likely INCREASE your EGT somewhat as it approaches an over-rich condition without enough air to burn clean. This can be tricky though as different levels of rich/lean can push EGT in different directions.
My 2007 runs a tune with stock exhaust, stock intake, etc. I haven't been out in nasty conditions of the west, but I've had customers out (many have other mods) with excellent results...
My wife just handed me your blocker kit-----now I don't get the feeling that it will make any difference.
This may seem off subject but could be revelent:
If you were to (lets say theoraticly) increase the flow crossing the MAF, what effects would it have on injector output, boost, EGR position, timing etc.?
I'll also post as a new thread in hopes of getting input.
The only MAF flow pattern altering that I've had experience with was reduction of flow being read. This resluted in reduction of power and response.
This seems like a good place to get the correct input about a Duromax problem. In most cases it may be. I had the same problem you are having, only I pull for a living. I have 207,000 miles on my 2006, half pulling trailers. I have a Hypertech installed, but everything else is stock. My problem, decreased power and smoke and a code of low fuel pressure, was diagnosed to be any of 5 items. The shop I took it to didn't believe any of them, and found 2 bad injectors and a bad sensor on the fuel rail. $2600 later and it is going over Donner Pass at 65 again (with 34 ft 5th wheel rv). So good luck.:confused:
This seems like a good place to get the correct input about a Duromax problem. In most cases it may be. I had the same problem you are having, only I pull for a living. I have 207,000 miles on my 2006, half pulling trailers. I have a Hypertech installed, but everything else is stock. My problem, decreased power and smoke and a code of low fuel pressure, was diagnosed to be any of 5 items. The shop I took it to didn't believe any of them, and found 2 bad injectors and a bad sensor on the fuel rail. $2600 later and it is going over Donner Pass at 65 again (with 34 ft 5th wheel rv). So good luck.:confused:
Yeah; I have suspected injectors too, but no one on this board seems to give any credence to that??? I have today however moved the MAF per the Banks suggestion---see the results on another thread here MAF flow effects.
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