New 6.5 article... Water injection

[More Power]

Some of you know that we've had a 6.5 water injection (http://www.thedieselpage.com/reviews/waterinjection.htm) article on the back burner for way too long. Have a look.... smile.gif

MP

[rjschoolcraft]

Wow, that half ton truck didn't like all that tounge weight! :eek: That looks potentially dangerous.

[JoeyD]

MP, I have Bill H water kit installed and drilled and tapped the compresor housing. Why inject in the intake tube or does it matter?

[autocrosser]

Does anyone have any info on what it does to the actual engine temps when pulling a heavy load up a incline where the temp usually will go up to 220 or more. The stock cooling setups usually can't handle pushing it pulling 8k or more in hot weather. I know adding a bigger fan and having the dual themmostats and HO water pump helps but how much engine cooling is gained from the water injection on a engine with a intercooler.

[More Power]

Bill has changed some of the components he's using now. In my most recent conversation with Bill, he mentioned that he's now using a water injection pump to pump into the pressurized side of the turbo.

Water injection and an IC combined do not produce twice the benefit. The higher the temperature differential, the bigger the effect. If the boosted air is at 300, either water or an IC can take 175-200 off that, depending on ambient.

However, running the two together only makes a minute improvement over what one of them alone can do. Has to do with temperature differential.

MP

[nvmtnlion]

Nice article MP. The water injection intrigues me and appears to be no better or worse solution than an intercooler IMHO. I am sure there are pros and cons to each. Anyone care to elaborate?

[Billman]

'Anyone care to elaborate?' you ask?

You must be new here.

The main cast of characters will be waking up shortly.

Hold on...


For the record, I have both. If I had to choose, it would be the Air-to-Air Intercooler.

[Spindrift]

Billy...you 'ole scoundrel, you. New York boys; always tryin' to pick a fight, but I'll bite on this one...just a little bit.

I'll say this:

IMHO, there probably isn't another performance mod available for our trucks, the effectiveness of which, is so entirely dependent upon what it is we intend to do with the truck; daily driver, highway driving, long/short towing, heavy/light towing, four wheelin', etc., etc.

Both types of charge air cooling methods do a good job of decreasing IAT. You'll probably see more argument about how the two methods achieve the goal of lower IAT; whether it's cost, equipment placement and location, convenience of use, dangers associated with the use of chemicals, etc.

Good luck deciding.

[More Power]

The best argument for water usually revolves around cost. Personally, I'm a committed IC guy. Always there - always providing a benefit, once installed correctly, you can forget it.

But, water does have some intriguing aspects that deserve some attention.

Bill Heath told me several years ago that he once traveled with a high concentration of alcohol in his supply tank, and used it more or less continually on a long highway trip. He reported over 30-mpg on that leg of the journey.

We report, you decide.... smile.gif

Trivia: In the article I mentioned that the F4U used a supercharger and water injection. The P-38 Lightning used turbochargers and intercoolers.....

MP

[rjschoolcraft]

The engines in the P38 Lightning were/are Allison V-1710's built in the plant in Indianapolis where I worked for fifteen years. Several of those engines were still around as museum pieces when I was there. Great engine.

I assume that I am in the "usual cast of characters." Do a search and see the discussion that has gone before. I, too, am committed to heat exchanger type intercooling.

I've been reluctant to point this out on the forum, but I think Buffalo Guy found out that current schemes are not metered precisely enough with enough metering variability to be completely safe. In his case, the problem seems to have come when he switched from plain water to water/alcohol (washer fluid) mix... It appears to have been metered too richly (too much volume flow of water/alchohol for the operating conditions) and caused a wrist pin failure.

My two cents.

[dieseldummy]

MP, great article and if you ever need any more insight into watermist on the 6.5 on more of the performance end of the spectrum let me know. I've been around both systems quite a bit. Both a friend and I both have 6.5's and during the summer we more or less tow together or take turns towing tractors to tractor pulls. A good average GCVW is around 30,000. Both systems are effective, both systems work as they should to keep temps in check, not only IAT and EGT, but also ECT. It is amazing the difference it makes running an EGT of 1000 compared to 1200 in water temp. If I had a choice I would choose an Air to Air cooler over the water mist just for the fact that to get effective cooling with them you have to burn so much water that long distances just become a pain as a result of having to stop and fill up with water. If a person is inginuitive enough to build an Air to Air, or has the $1400 laying around to buy one then I say go with that route, but if you are on a limited budget and don't feel up to that task of building a setup then go with the water mist. Best bang for the perverbial buck at hand IMHO.

Justin

[radrecon69]

I have read the arguments on both sides and I haven't decided on which way to go on my dually. The WMI system is relatively cheap but has a huge draw back as that you have to carry enough water so where do you carry it, the bed is the most logical place but you are then taking up space in your bed and then you are limited as to what you can carry in it i.e. no load of mulch or manure (my wife is big into gardening) but the cost of an IC is way out of my league right now at 1400 smackers that is whole lot of money and then to have somebody install it you are talking another couple of 100 smackers. I will most likely buy the WMI system and I was thinking of putting the WMI tank underneath the back seat but I don't what kind of mess it would be to fill. Unless somebody can give me a better place to put it and also how big a tank a person would need to go between fill ups?

Rick

[radrecon69]

I forgot to add how much boost is need to run the WMI system and can you get that mush boost out of a stock 93 turbo system GM 4 or to you need to upgrade to a bigger turbo such as the
GM 8?

Rick

[LanduytG]

The best performance improvement came by added the large IC. I never see more than 125* IAT. Have played with water but it was to much of a hassle for me.

Greg

[Spindrift]

This is how I manage water.

Water tank (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=2134139822)

Vaporization of the water in the intake manifold is necessary in order to gain the maximum benefits of WMI. My Hobbs pressure switch is calibrated to begin injection at 10 psi.

[ 12-13-2004, 05:04 AM: Message edited by: Spindrift ]

[Billman]

radrecon69

The tank was the hardest decision for me to make. Like you, I didn't want to mount it in the bed. I thought about buying a toolbox that mounts in the bed, and then put the tank in there.

Finally came up with an idea and fabricated an all aluminum tank that is mounted behind the rear seat in my Crew Cab. Complete with baffle, sight glass, and filler neck on driver's side.

Pretty neat, actually.

Still waitin' on a digital camera...

[radrecon69]

Spindrift

I like where you put yours did you make the tank yourself or did you buy it? I still need to know whether I can get that GM 4 Turbo to produce the 10-12 lbs of boost needed for it to properly mist? If I can get it to produce that amount can you get a switch that would automatically turn on the WMI system when it hits 10 lbs of boost or is it better to have hands on control of the boost?

Thanks

Rick

[farmerherb]

There was a fellow who was building intercoolers that had a sprayer mounted to spray liquid CO2 across the fins. I can't remember where I saw it but I'm wondering how cold it got the air(liquid CO2 is -108). What do you think that would do for increasing power?

[computer monkey]

I know this may not be the right thing for everyone. This is only my experience with water injection. I hope this information will help someone. The water tanks on the trailer was used.

From the start; I have a 98 Suburban 1500 4X4 (eight bolt wheels, 14 bolt rear-end, 4L80E trans, rated 8050lbs 3:42 gears, L65 engine). I have a AM General 6500 Optimizer engine, Phear Gear set timed at -1.5, Kennedy 3.5 exhaust, Heath Diesel reflash program version 2, stock fan clutch, Duramax fan, Heath Diesel transmission controller (pressure), Heath Diesel water injection set at 32oz a minute, Heath Diesel towing mirrors, stock oil cooler, stock trans cooler with another add behind bumper with thermostat fan set to 180 degrees f, triple gauge mount, NAPA 190 degree thermostats. Forgot to add Heath Diesel Turbo Master and Racor 445 fuel filter added between tank and lift pump.

Water pump mounted on driver side frame rail just behind transfer case cross member. Water was taken from the trailer tanks (trailer has two 50 gallon fresh water tanks).

Went to NC last week by the way of I-40. Air temp was around 80 to 89 degrees f. Got about 8 to 10 miles per gallon. Tranny temp 140 to 180 degrees f average. Engine temp 191 to 197 degrees f average. EGT pre-turbo 800 to 900 degrees f pre-turbo average. Boost 13 to 15 plus pounds. This is with water injection set to come on at 10.5 pounds. Average high way speed was 70mph. Climbing one hill, about two miles long, slowed down to 45mph, engine temps went to 215, EGT went to 1050 and trans went to 190. I did try it once on the flats with the water injection turned off. Engine temps went to 215 then the fan kicked in, EGT went to 1100 and could not hold 70mph till I turned water back on.

When I first started towing this trailer with our Suburban I was very disappointed, 55 to 65mph in third only was all I was able to do. High engine temp (240) and EGT (1000 to 1300) all the time. After engine mods was done and the pull to NC, I can safety say that I am very happy with the set up. 70mph was the target speed that I wanted on the flats. Temperatures across the board are very good and well with in the safe limits for longevity.

I try to put more picture up when I get more time. Just to let you know this is my home web server and its not on all of the time.

I have pictures at: Picture of Rig and WI (http://www.n2outdrs.com/gmcwi/)

Trailer is a Jayco Talon ZX 28' toy hauler, dry weight 7000lbs, 11.5' tall.

[Spindrift]

Computer Monkey...where did you find those quick disconnects?

I have a 20 gallon tank that I purchased from these folks:

Ronco Plastics (http://www.ronco-plastics.com/)

You haven't told us whether you plan to chip your truck. I don't know anything about the GM 4, but even the GM 8s don't have the ability to sustain higher (8 psi and above) boost without reprogramming.

One of the disadvantages of the bargain basement WMI system (mine) is my inability to "tune" the system for various driving conditions. Once the system is energized and I reach 10psi, the pump starts pumpin' at a preset flow, regardless of whether or not I'm running at 10 psi or 15 psi. I have absolutely no flexibility in adjusting water flow and injection timing from the cab.

There are more sophisticated systems out there, but then you need more coin. I have less than $400 invested in my system and it does a good job. Maybe there will be a big Spearco under the tree this year.

[Billman]

You guys with the Heath WMI use a ridiculous amount of water.

Have any of you monitored IAT's while spraying that much?

Theoretically speaking, if you were climbing a steep grade with the system engaged for 4 minutes, you would pump 1 gallon of water.

That's a lot of liquid.

[Billman]

SD

I told you about those fittings.

Legris is one...

[rjschoolcraft]

Originally posted by radrecon69:
I still need to know whether I can get that GM 4 Turbo to produce the 10-12 lbs of boost needed for it to properly mist? rad,

I run up to 18 psi boost with the GM-4. That is getting out to end of its efficiency range, but I've had good experience at those levels. Sustained boost when towing runs between 14 and 18 psi depending on conditions.

To get there, I use a KD chip and boost controller.

[computer monkey]

Spindrift the quarter inch quick connects I got from Heath Diesel, the three eights I go from a local fitting shop for air brake tubing.

My year of vehicle does not use a chip. I do have a reflash program from Heath Diesel version 2.

Billman, the amount of water that I have listed is 32oz of water free flow. Under boost I would say it is around 20oz plus. My trailer comes with 100 gallon water tank. I can pull better with the weight of 100 gallons and the WI then I can without the weight and not using the WI.

[Spindrift]

Originally posted by Billman:
That's a lot of liquid. No doubt about it. But it works. I've seen IAT as low as 108*.

I'm still playing with the flow vs. water/meth concentration in order to get more miles out of my water tank. Next big trip where I'll be able to perform continuous testing will be in March...headed to Universal and Sea World. Can't wait.

[gwaidman]

Well, I was thinking about the WI setup for a while now. It would really help me get the most out of my truck. Now Im sold. Looks like a call to Bill this week. And my wife said Santa wasn't coming for me this year... heheh

[radrecon69]

OK here is the problem I can't reflash, rechip I have a 93 dually pre any computer I do have the Heath Torqmaster boost controller. Without being able to reflash rechip is it possible to sustain 10-12ilbs boost? Or even attain 10-12 of boost needed to run this system?

Again Thanks

Rick

[rjschoolcraft]

Others have, so I assume you can just tighten the nut on the spring. Tbogemirep is one example.

[jjbouwens]

Well there is one aspect that has not been addressed yet. If you inject 20 to 30 OZ/min.(0.6 to 0.95 l/min) of water I would have drained my entire water tank of my motorhome easily on one day of driving.Or is this figure too high? With that amount of water you also inject a lot of dissolved chemicals like calcium into the combustion chamber and cylinders . Is nobody concerned about scale deposits on walls and long term effects (maybe exhaust corrosion-chlorides?). This is the reason why in gasturbines you must inject demineralised water (I realize that there is an enormous difference in size and up to a point also in technology but chemistry is about the same I would think). If I drive 100 km ( 62 miles)in one hour I have injected about 20 l (5.3 gallons)of fuel plus about 40 (10.6 gallon)to almost 60 l(15.9 gallon) of (untreated) water with unknown chemical properties. You put more water than fuel in your engine.Drinking water in some areas can can have about 100 to 200 mg/l -5.8 to 11.6 grain/gallon-(of calcium and the like) and all that stuff gets into your engine without knowing what effect it has. Am I too concerned?
Other than that water is a perfect means to augment power, cooldown the air inlet temp, and reduce NOX in the exhaust by lowering the combustion temp.----all goodies.
------------------
96/P32/home made and relocated FSD heatsink/Racor prefilter/modified el. pump control/ K&N airfilter/carcode2.

[rjschoolcraft]

You are right, as in my gas turbine experience with water/alcohol injection, we used distilled water.

I am also concerned about the deposits that you mentioned.

[cruzer]

Rick, I don't know about the GM4, but my GM1 is set at 14-15psi boost w/a TM, and will sustain the boost until I let off the skinny pedal.

[BuffaloGuy]

Hey guys, Buffalo Guy here. The jury is still out on why my wrist pins died. It seems the motor may not have been up to specs in several other places so it may have nothing to do with water injection. We're still researching this one.

The injection folks say when you use methanol or alcohol you should inject MORE than with straight water. I don't. I use the same nozzle.

While a home brew system with a simple Hobbs switch may not optimize the water injection I doubt that spending the added money to vary the injection amount would be justified in performance gains.

If a simple air to air intercooler cost $500 I'd go for it. However, it would still makes me nervous having it in front of my skid plate that is very dinged and scraped up. Better yet if GM would have designed these trucks to have one and in the PROPER location we'd all be a lot happier.

In my mind the fluid should only be injected post turbo.

[Spindrift]

Originally posted by jjbouwens:
If I drive 100 km ( 62 miles)in one hour I have injected about 20 l (5.3 gallons)of fuel plus about 40 (10.6 gallon)to almost 60 l(15.9 gallon) of (untreated) water with unknown chemical properties. You put more water than fuel in your engine. jjb,

My target fuel/water delivery ratio is 1:1. It would appear from your calculations that you're injecting water 100% of the time. In reality, I may be at the injection point only 50% of the time while towing. This "point" will vary tremendously from driver to driver because of load, terrain, etc., etc.

I have heard of an engine (have not seen it with my own eyes) that was torn down after 270,000 miles. Water injection had been used since it was a baby. The engine was as clean as a whistle.
Spray away! :D

[cruzer]

A question. In past posts i remember it being mentioned that an air to air cooler is most beneficial at boosts over 10-12psi plus. What about boosts of under 10 psi, like 5psi. The air coming out of the turbo is still hot, isn't?
Or is all the heat buildup related to PSI only? Won't it still cool a low psi charge and give benefit to power too?

Water is only sprayed above a certain PSI and not below?

I would think an IC would be effective regardless of boost pressures.

[BuffaloGuy]

I have an intake temp gauge installed. Boost below 8-10 psi only creates intake temps of 130-150 max. The only time intake temps really become an issue is when your pulling hard and then the boost jumps right up and the water comes on.

I can pull a load against the wind all day with almost continuous injection and I will only use about 12-15 gallons of water per 2 tanks of fuel.

[Spindrift]

Originally posted by The Buffalo Guy:
I can pull a load against the wind all day with almost continuous injection and I will only use about 12-15 gallons of water per 2 tanks of fuel. BG,

That's amazin'! Maybe if you were spraying more water that wrist pin would be alive and well. Excuse me, more of that infamous Joisy humor.

This is a serious question for those of you with an IC. I've often heard that an advantage of an IC is that it is "on" 100% of the time. If you're not towing, and therefore you're not experiencing ridiculously high IATs, where's the advantage? If I'm running at low boost, that tells me I don't need to take full advantage of the power that the 6.5 is capable of producing, which after all, is the main benefit of charge air cooling. In other words, what benefit(s) is/are provided by an IC at low boost?

[computer monkey]

What about speed???? I know when I pulling in the mountains in NC, my speed was around 45mph. It would be hard for me to believe that a IC would be more benifical to me then WI pulling the load I pull and the length of time I pulled it.

[rjschoolcraft]

As I suggested in this thread (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005059), I would like to see a long distance towing demonstration to compare the two approaches. Here's what I wrote in the referenced thread:


Originally posted by ronniejoe:
Set up a long distance, cross country towing demonstration between an intercooled 6.5 and one with water injection. Mountain towing and desert towing must be included in the western United States. We can argue all day long about opinions... the proof is in the pudding.I would be willing to participate. I also asked:


Originally posted by ronniejoe:
Furthermore, has anyone ever run the hill in the Pull-Off competition with a water injected 6.5? It's clear from the photo in the article that Bill Heath was hooked to the trailer and probably ran the hill, but no times or speeds were ever reported and it was not mentioned in the 2003 write-up. I'd like to know how he did... for comparison, of course.

As for intercoolers at low boost... My egt is significantly lower all across the board. Cruise solo at 75 mph and about 5 psi boost, egt is between 350 and 400F. Before the intercooler but with the chip and cruising under the same conditions, egt was between 600 and 650F. That significantly reduces the underhood temperatures... I'll leave it to you all to figure out how that can be beneficial.

[computer monkey]

I was talking about Hi boost hi thottle and low vehicle speed.

[rjschoolcraft]

Even at 45 mph, the airflow through the intercooler is significant so that the intercooler is effective.

[dieseldummy]

I once read that 10 mph worth of airflow brought an intercooler into the "effective" range...

[Billman]

The added benefits are just as RJ says.

Less EGT all-around and your working the engine less = Longer life.

Another benefit which I believe, and has been mentioned by JK on a number of occasions, longer PMD life when pump-mounted. Not proven - I don't think - but I agree.

[nvmtnlion]

So, if someone chooses water injection, it would be a good idea to invest in a home reverse osmosis water purifier so you feed your engine clean, lime and calcium free water? What do you do to prevent stuff growing in the water tank?

[Marty Lau]

Originally posted by nvmtnlion:
So, if someone chooses water injection, it would be a good idea to invest in a home reverse osmosis water purifier so you feed your engine clean, lime and calcium free water? What do you do to prevent stuff growing in the water tank? A very small amount of clorox should do the job on stuff growing in the tank. Also if there is no light growth should be little or none or a in line filter whould remove anything of significance.

[Marty Lau]

Originally posted by ronniejoe:
As I suggested in this thread (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005059), I would like to see a long distance towing demonstration to compare the two approaches. Here's what I wrote in the referenced thread:


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ronniejoe:
Furthermore, has anyone ever run the hill in the Pull-Off competition with a water injected 6.5? It's clear from the photo in the article that Bill Heath was hooked to the trailer and probably ran the hill, but no times or speeds were ever reported and it was not mentioned in the 2003 write-up. I'd like to know how he did... for comparison, of course.

</font>[/QUOTE]Ron;
As I heard it awhile back from Bill H. was that he pulled the hill from cruise and not from a full stop. He wanted to take it easy on the truck and tranny, If my brain also serves me right I believe he said he had 3:08's in the rear? I Maybe wrong on the ratio, it could be 3:42?

[radrecon69]

I was seriously thinking about the WMI system but I have to agree where would you carry that much demineralized water and where would you buy it when on the road. It is a cheap alternative to an IC but I don't have 1700 dollars to spare and would have a hell of a time convincing my wife that it would be worth it. She wouldn't care if I had to drive up a mountain side at 10MPH I know when I had the NA 6.2 pulling a Bronco out to Oregon we climbed the Rocky's at sometimes no faster then 10 MPH off on the side of the road it didn't bother her a bit (It did me). So it would be a hard sell but 20 gallons of water every 2 fill ups is a heck of a lot of water. Do you use that much water Spindrift or Billman when you are pulling? and do you use demineralized water?

Rick

[JoeyD]

I think it you bought one of the water filters that screw into a faucet would do the trick. Put it on the end of the hose you fill it with.

[radrecon69]

Maybe put it in line right after the tank

Rick

[BuffaloGuy]

It is not neccesary to use demineralized water. All demineralized water might help is the water nozzle itself. From what I hear the cleanest cylinders on a motor with a blown head gasket are the ones that have the coolant leaking into them. The water steam cleans them. Same with water injection. I doubt there is anyway minerals could build up and cause damage.

Most every truck stop has a frost free water hydrant somewhere. It's actually pretty easy to fill up.

I kinda like the idea of getter more power and better mileage by burning free water smile.gif

[Billman]

Rick

I have not done any serious pulling since adding the WMI. I can tell you that I doubt I will use anywhere near the amount of water that these guys use. I don't use any special water either. I run 2 filters.

If my system were on 100% of the time, I would use 3GPH. That is what the nozzle is rated for.

I have the Big Intercooler. WMI is secondary. IC will bring IAT to +30* ambient - I have seen this. WMI on top of this has shown Ambient Intake Temps @ 15+ boost. Testing is not complete though.

Bought the IC 3 years ago. Made my own WMI 3 months ago.

Intercooler is expensive. Beg, borrow, or steal. It's worth it...

[Spindrift]

Originally posted by ronniejoe:
Set up a long distance, cross country towing demonstration between an intercooled 6.5 and one with water injection. Mountain towing and desert towing must be included in the western United States. We can argue all day long about opinions... the proof is in the pudding.RJ,
I would like to see our two trucks go head to head. Why not some place between your Indiana and my New Jersey? What concerns me however, and at the risk of being labeled a "Gurly Mon", is the damage I could do to my tranny without a way to command lock-up. Let's get that figured out for something less than the cost of a BD or Compushift unit.

nvm,
I've never had anything grow in my tank, even in the heat of summer. But then again, drugs can kill. ;) If you're really concerned, drain the tank.

rad,
There's absolutely no need for any fancy water filter. I have a very simple in-line filter installed at the supply side of the tank. It catches the big stuff. I agree with BG, there's no evidence that tap water harms the engine; just the opposite IMHO. I always fill at truck stops. The water hose is next to the fuel hose (I suspect that's for those truckers who will be using WMI to meet 2007 clean air standards). ;)
Is it an inconvenience? Absolutely. But the look on a trucker's face when he sees me with a water hose in the back seat of my Burb is...quite frankly, priceless. :eek:

As I've said before, I want an IC too. In due time. But I don't just use my truck to pull the trailer. My truck gets dirty, very dirty. Last week the entire right side of my ride was in mud so deep I couldn't open the doors. What would have happened to a frame mounted Spearco? No thanks. When I do my IC, it will be done right for me, and the right way for me is the Project Truck way. I can wait. HO injectors first. :D

[bill heath]

While water injection has its applications, it certainly does not meet the needs of every application. We support the use of and we supply both air-to-air and water IC systems. We recommend these based on application and intended use.
In our opinion and as it applies to heavy towing, an air-to-air system is best for those who frequent the less mountainous regions of our country. These heavy vehicle combinations often have considerable frontal area and even when running on relatively flat ground, they can spend considerable time in 9-11 psi boost pressure range and this is especially so when head winds are present.

Water type systems do a very nice job when towing in mountainous regions where boost pressure can be in the 11-15 psi range for relatively long periods. The way we have always done the water system is by having it come on at 11 psi increasing pressure when turbo outlet temps are high enough to evaporate the water and affect the cooling. Understandably, this type system will afford no benefit at pressures below this cut-in point. For what it is worth, we do not get very excited about intercooling at boost pressures below 6-9 psi.
A water type IC system requires a water storage tank and brings with it the inconvenience of keeping water in the tank and these systems are not so great in the winter time. For those who love to dyno their 6.5's, water inj a really good way to go.
Either type system, by virtue of the cooler intake air temp they produce, will provide a reduction in the amount of heat being rejected into the cooling system, lessening the heat load on it. The water type system provides this benefit even at low forward speeds and under high load.
It is interesting to note that, air to air IC systems commonly suffer a pressure drop across their heat exchanger core. For instance, when boost pressure out of the turbo is at 15 psi, the manifold pressure will be around 11.5 psi. Part of the gain is lost to intake air-flow restriction. The other system does not suffer this restriction to intake airflow.
There are many factors to consider when contemplating an IC system. Considering cost, maintainance, effectiveness and performance, neither system is ideal in every application.

[rjschoolcraft]

Originally posted by Spindrift:
RJ,
I would like to see our two trucks go head to head. Why not some place between your Indiana and my New Jersey? What concerns me however, and at the risk of being labeled a "Gurly Mon", is the damage I could do to my tranny without a way to command lock-up. Let's get that figured out for something less than the cost of a BD or Compushift unit.
What damage are you concerned about? I've towed thousands of miles without the Torq-Loc. In fact, I wouldn't have this one if it hadn't been a promotional item. Now that I have it, I like it, but I probably would never have convinced myself to buy it without using it first.

We could do something between here and there... but, honestly, the real challenge is out west. The mountains out east are really no challenge at all for my Suburban any more. In fact, I've always said that towing west of the Mississippi is where you prove your mettle. I could get by towing east of the Mississippi in stock trim... it wasn't fun, but I could do it. Towing across North Dakota and Montana or through Colorado, Utah and Nevada on I-70 then down I-15 through the Mojave Desert... I didn't think I would make it. In fact, the first trip out in this rig was to Yellowstone in 2000. Had a new engine installed under warranty in Bismarck, ND due to a burned number 8 piston. I know now that my egt's were running over 1500F (didn't have gages then, truck was bone stock with 60,000 miles).

But, if you want to get together sometime, I'm willing. Just have to arrange a mutually agreeable time. I think it would be fun.

[rjschoolcraft]

Let's put 'em head-to-head. ;)

While I live in the "less mountainous regions", I do tow in the mountains quite frequently... the Rockies and Sierras (do those count?). In fact, my ultimate challenge is to run my Suburban against a comparably equipped truck with WMI towing similar sized trailers from Denver, CO to Los Angeles, CA in late June or early July. We need a couple of test moderators to ride along and record data off the analog gages and off the data link. I think some video tape of the gages and vehicle in operation would be good too. We must negotiate what to do when the water tank runs out and I don't need to stop for fuel, though. ;)

Who's in?

[JoeyD]

If the water inj and the intercooler drop the temps close enough that a power difference on the road is not going to be noticed why run the test? What is it going to prove?
I think spindrifts tank will last as long as a tank of fuel so going longer between stops may not be a factor if your stopping anyways.

[Kidd]

My heaviest pulls are at low speeds, less than 15 mph, transfer case in low range. I pull posts and logs out of the mountains, have to climb two long hills. Trail is dozed by Cat, loose dirt, 4X4 a must, about 12 miles at 10-15% slope. Question, will an IC help me under these conditions? Right now, I limit rpm to 2100 to keep everything cool. Also, how tough are these IC's? Occasional contact with stumps and boulders is unavoidable.. you should see the gouges on my skid plates. :(
Duane.. running a bone stock 98 GM dually 4X4
no problems so far... :D :D

[nvmtnlion]

Everyone,

Thank you very much for your input on this. I believe that when it is time, I will go with a water injection system. I am in Reno, Nevada and the GPS says my altitude (before a few irish coffees ;) ) is 4780 feet. I will be towing in the summer and Reno is about the lowest altitude I will be running at. So, one *more* thing for the oh-so-long upgrade list! :D

[Turbine Doc]

KD I don't think either will do much for your needs, what kind of boost are you seeing with those pulls, unless you start getting much above 8 psi boost high IAT not a big problem to require cooling. I have a IC on mine as much stump and boulder dodging as you sound like you are doing WMI might be the better option, if you feel the need for one.

IC needs about 10 mph of air flow across it to start doing some good, but as I said before at that speed your turbo isn't working that hard to need either system, now on the drive to get you to the outback and what you might be hauling to the woods; you might need some sort of post turbo cooling.

The IC is solidly built, but is exposed see my web link in sig, unless you have done something to give better clearance, or come up with a way to armor the IC when down in the weeds WMI could be better. I've thought about a frame and skid plate for mine, I don't get in the weeds/rocks etc with mine so it hasn't been a big issue with me.

It does gets mudded up some during the rainy season on unimproved dirt roads around here, washing from the back side gets the mud out.

Really takes considerable study which is best for your needs & cost to install, my advise tho go with biggest IC you can fit if going that route.

[rjschoolcraft]

nvmtnlion,

Bill Heath made some comments in his earlier post that I do not agree with. He implied that an intercooler is OK for those who tow in "non-mountainous" terrain, but that they are not so good for the mountains. Again, I disagree. Here is a direct quote from the thread that I referenced earlier:


Originally posted by ronniejoe:
I am presently sitting in Las Vegas, NV in attendance at the SEMA Show 2003. I towed my travel trailer to Las Vegas from Martinsville for the show. The route is I-70 to I-15...some very mountainous terrain.

Thanks to information gleaned from this resource and products from Kennedy Diesel, my Suburban is finally a respectable towing machine...and I sense there is more in there. Having traveled the exact same route (and farther) in June with the family on vacation, I have a good comparison test established. At the time of the summer trip, I had Kennedy's TD Max chip, the HO water pump and dual t-stats, the K&N air filter and Banks exhaust installed. I suffered from overheating problems and low power in western Colorado and Utah.

This trip, I have the Kennedy intercooler, Kennedy fan clutch and 9-blade steel fan. From Indiana through Kansas I set the cruise on 70 mph and drove...the most speed loss was 5 mph on some grades in Missouri. In the summer I had to down shift on most any grade to keep from losing more than 5 mph.

In Colorado, I set the cruise on 75 mph (speed limit) and just drove. It was amazing. Previously, I could not sustain 75 mph on level ground...I could only do that on down grades.

Late Monday night as I was approaching Denver, I lost boost. Turns out, the waste gate actuator failed...the rod broke where it connects to the piston in the canister. I lost two thirds of a day while rounding up the part in Denver, replaced it in a K-Mart parking lot, then moved on.

Climbing out of Denver on I-70 up to the Eisenhower Tunnel under the Great Divide was my first real test. Last summer, I struggled with overheating (had to stop twice to cool down) and low power (it was hot). I actually dropped into first gear at less than 35 mph when approaching the tunnel at 11,000+ elevation. This time, I hit the tunnel at 50 mph and only briefly dropped into second gear. At no other time on the east side of the divide did I drop below 55 mph.

The down grades were managed much more easily with the TorqLoc engaged. The rig felt much more secure and it was much easier to maintain safe speeds.

Last summer, the tow through Utah was a struggle. At several spots, I had to crawl in first gear at about 25-30 mph. This time, I never dropped below 50 mph and only used second gear a couple of times. I actually got into a bit of a contest with a Dodge Cummins 3500 dually towing a 5th-wheel. He could pull me slightly on some of the grades...Then he decided to really out run me. I fell in behind and stayed with him (the draft helped). We ran at over 80 mph for several miles, then I got a good jump on an upgrade, passed him and went on. Cool :D

This truck really has me excited now. Overheating seems to be a thing of the past. Now I am just beginning to tap the real power potential. :cool:

I now have the return trip to do, starting tomorrow and hope to be home by Saturday night. As for the water mist injection issue, I can't see how it would provide the performance that the intercooler did for that sustained effort. Running 70 - 75 mph towing the trailer requires sustained boost levels of 10-13 psi...that's over 1800 miles at high boost levels. In the systems I've seen described here, the water would be on all the time and I don't see how I could keep the tank full. Just my opinion.

So far, the intercooler and the fan clutch are the two most significant changes that I have made...but they all work together.

What fun! smile.gif You should read that entire thread before making up your mind. For your convenience, here is another link to it. (http://forum.thedieselpage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005059) Now for some more data.

As an example, while traveling to Missoula, Montana from my home here in Indiana, I towed my 32' Wilderness 31G travel trailer at speeds between 65 and 75 mph, depending on speed limits and road conditions. All through North Dakota, I set the cruise on 75 and rolled on. On level ground, my boost pressure was running about 12 psi. On grades, boost would climb to 18 psi and the Suburban gutted on through.

For those who say that the GM-4 cannot make power above 12 psi boost... When I reached Montana, the waste gate pivot shaft bound up on my turbo charger which limited boost, as documented in the Rendezvous Article (http://www.thedieselpage.com/rendez/ren04.htm). My maximum boost under these conditions was 11 psi. Furthermore, boost was lower all across the operating range. Power was down significantly and egt was up signficantly. I limped all the way from the Montana-North Dakota line to Missoula.

Joey D.,

Why run the test that I suggested? Simply to put an end to all of this speculation and put some data on the table. Although, that would also put an end to all of the fun we're having with this arguing. ;)

[Spindrift]

Originally posted by bill heath:
There are many factors to consider when contemplating an IC system. Considering cost, maintainance, effectiveness and performance, neither system is ideal in every application. RJ,

Can we at least agree on the quote above? C'mon. Yes, or no?

[rjschoolcraft]

Yes,... or no,... well, maybe. smile.gif

Here we go again.

[Spindrift]

LOL!

I think we've pretty much beatin' the stuffing out of this bear.

[computer monkey]

Pulling my trailer takes 14psi to maintain 70mph. The only time my WI does not run is going down a hill. Picture of Rig (http://www.n2outdrs.com/gmcwi/rigweb.jpg)

[rjschoolcraft]

For the record, and off topic, I also disagree with Kennedy's recommendation on 195 thermostats (others have echoed his recommendation and implied that I have a hole in my head...that's rather obvious, but you don't have to point it out). I went with his recommendation until this summer...

On the return trip from Missoula, my truck ran hot again. It didn't over heat, but it ran hot. Hot enough that the computer pulled back on fuel. The fan clutch was on the entire day as we travelled from Missoula to eastern South Dakota. I have now switched to 180's and am looking forward to traveling out west in hot conditions to check it out. I think More Power's explanation in the 6.5TD Cooling Solutions That Work (http://www.thedieselpage.com/members/features/65cooltipsc.htm) article is on the money.

I say this because some have accused me of bias. I simply calls 'em like I sees 'em... and usually believe very firmly in my calls. ;)

[ 12-15-2004, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: ronniejoe ]

[rjschoolcraft]

Computer Monkey,

That's a nice looking rig! ;)

Here's a picture of mine:

http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com/Pictures_&_Data/IM000024.jpg

It doesn't look as good as yours, but I'm proud of it.

[computer monkey]

We first looked at the Wilderness toy hualers (nice trailers) before coming across this a good deal on this one.
I have been dying to find out what our Suburban dynos out at. I could only guess what it take to pull this trailer. More pictures of trailer. Pictures (http://www.n2outdrs.com/engine) rig****.jpg

[Spindrift]

RJ,

I was considering going to 180* stats but I tabled the idea because I thought the fan would cycle more frequently, and consequently, scavange power over the length of the trip. I suspect that if you're spending the majority of your towing time in extremely hot conditions, the 180s make more sense.

[dieseldummy]

Origionally posted by ronniejoe:
Why run the test that I suggested? Simply to put an end to all of this speculation and put some data on the table. Although, that would also put an end to all of the fun we're having with this arguing.
I have the answer to this test already, two pickups, each with a different system, both hauling the same load time after time. Both pickups perform the same. My specs are listed in my sig. the other is a '96 GMC: Heath reflash, waterinjection, Holset turbo, and 21:1 compression. I stress my point here both pickups, with a different system on each run the same and stay cool doing it! 30K GCVW hilly terain, and also sustained interstate driving at 75 mph... As they say the proof is in the pudding...

[Marty Lau]

Ron;

Sit down take a deep breath and have glass of ice tea. ;)

[JohnC]

Originally posted by bill heath:
It is interesting to note that, air to air IC systems commonly suffer a pressure drop across their heat exchanger core. For instance, when boost pressure out of the turbo is at 15 psi, the manifold pressure will be around 11.5 psi. Part of the gain is lost to intake air-flow restriction. The other system does not suffer this restriction to intake airflow. I just want to point out that while this phenomenon exists, the majority of the pressure drop is due to the cooling of the charge (PV=nrT) and not because of any restrictions. Since the name of the game is mass airflow, denser, cooler lower pressure air is just as good as warmer, less dense higher pressure air.

This behavior is not evident in a WMI system because the water is injected into the system before any pressure measurements can be taken, otherwise the same behavior would be evident: as the air cools the pressure decreases.

Well, you may say, 15 psi cool air from a WMI system is still better than 11-12 psi cool air from an intercooler. Maybe, maybe not. Some of the "air" from the WMI system is actually water vapor and cannot contribute to the combustion process. (Remember, the real goal is to burn more fuel). The water vapor does, however, make some contribution to the power output when it is converted to steam. A wash? Who knows?

Hope this makes your decision easier! ;)

[cruzer]

To me the pressure drop is of no concern because
my boost pressure reading has always been from the upper intake manifold. I running more boost now than b4 the intercooler was installed.

With water injection, does it not increase compression too?

[dieseldummy]

It's been my experience that when kicking on the WMI that boost pressure goes up 2-3 psi. When I added the intercooler to my pickup boost dropped 2-3 psi. Both are measured in the intake manifold in the exact same spot. What all this means to me is that the WMI adds steam to the system which adds volume to the air to increase boost, the intercooler cools the air which makes it denser which explains the boost loss. Each has a different effect on boost pressure, but neither is negative. Tomato, tamoto, which is it?

Cruzer has a good point, wouldn't adding a more solid ingredient to the combustion chamber increase compression ratio?