If you were this far would you pull the engine? Is it worth the trouble?

[j_k_auto]

As most of you guys know where I am at one my engine. I am down to the timing set and rockers assemblies out. I do see some rocker and push rod wear.
We already know the problems with the engines(blocks cracks,cranks break,ect..ect...)

I have 170,000 on my engine and it is 4x4. I know how to pull engines and rebuild them. I worked on engines for about 16 yrs. I am just wondering if you were in my shoes would you pull the engine and check eveything out. I do not know what the bottom look like and I am not worried about pulling it. I just don't know if it is woth it. Also I am not sure what I will find and be happy. Then you get into what to do once you get it out. bearing,rings...ect..ect.
So I was wondering for you long time 6.5 guys (mechanics) or anyone else what would you do???? :confused: :(

I never thought I was ever going to go in this direction but lets see what you think...

Thanks guys for all your time and posts back to me. If it was not for this forum I would still be fighting with the pmd.

Thanks again Joe

[DmaxMaverick]

Drop the pan (not too bad on a 4x4) and check for cracks. If everything looks good, slap in a new oil pump and seal it up. If you have a 2-piece rear seal, could be a good time to refresh it. Use a later model high volume pump if you think you should. Hung jury on that one.

If you had good compression, I see no reason to pull the engine. It's very likely you'd just be replacing the same parts. If you have doubts, Plastigage the bearings (rarely any problem there). If you aren't pulling the heads, I wouldn't sweat it. If you need to replace the lifters, it can be done with heads on (enginuity and patients may be required).

[j_k_auto]

Well I have a small coolant leak and I don't know where it is. I am probably going to pull the heads and use better head bolts. rear main was replaced 20 miles ago. long story but trans just got rebuilt. Yes I need to do A compression test today and see what the outcome is.

[DmaxMaverick]

If you are already pulling heads, it's a toss-up. I've done them in and out, and it's just about a wash, comparing convience, time and busted knuckles.

There is only one "type" of head bolts. Fel-Pro is the preferred brand, but I'm not aware of a "bad" brand. They cannot be reused, they are TTY (torque to yield). The only other option is studs, and an in-frame R&R is not fun with them (pull the engine), but is possible. No advantage to studs with stock to moderate bombing, but wouldn't hurt, either.

[j_k_auto]

No I did not pull the heads yet. If I am right you need the
1. front diff dropped
2. engine cover
3. exhaust crossover

to drop the pan

1. all the above
2. oil cooler lines
3. bell housing bolts
4. engine mount bolts
5. starter
5. wires ect..

to pull the engine...

[DmaxMaverick]

Pretty much, but you don't need to drop the diff to pull the engine. Also, you'll want to pull the hood, radiator, or ideally, the full front clip. The front clip doesn't take long, then you don't have to mess with clearance or chance damaging the stack with wrenches, accessories or the fan. It also gives you a chance to get the radiator refreshed and renew aged wiring, and paint, etc. There are a number of ways to do it. Time, experience and resources usually determine the route. It's also best to evac. the A/C, so you don't have to mess with that. Just get it out of the way, first.

[j_k_auto]

right I understand. I am tring to keep this as long as possible. I think I am going to
1. commpression test
2. drop pan
3. take heads off
4. check everything out.
5. slowly put it back together using updated stuff like arp studs and gm tablets (seal coolant)

I think this shounds like a good plan?

I have everything down to the timing chain. rad it pulled. turbo is out. intake gone. fan gone. intake gone. fuel filter gone.:D

[Robyn]

Yank it out yank it out.

The engine is so much easier to work on and to see what you need to see while on a stand.

There are several things that will need work at the miles on the clock you have.

Soft plugs will almost certainly be near rotted though.
I have not seen any high milers that were not.

Yank it all apart and be sure and steel stamp the rods on the pan rail side on the part line as GM does not do this.

A minimum you can steam the thing down good and then see what you have.

A small coolant leak is most likely #2 or #7 cylinder head gasket thats about to die a violent death. I say this from experience, been there done that.:eek:

You can also assess the condition of the heads the block, crank, cam ect.

If all is ok a valve grind along with a light hone on the cylinders and some fresh rings and bearings and a few gaskets and seals and a rattle can of black paint and your off to the rodeo.

I did this very thing a year ago on our 94 Burb.

Its far easier to work on these little cretures out of the truck.

You can really get a good look at the main webs with loads of daylight after a good steam cleaning.

At home the easiest way to check for cracks is to use a propane torch and warm the web areas at the outer bolt holes on both sides until hot.
Any cracks will bubble oil really good if they are present.

The cracks many times are not visible to the eye even when the sucker is clean without doing this.


Have the crank magged and probaly a nice pollish is all it will need.

While you are there you can look the cam over well too. be sure to bag them lifters up and mark them though.

Most of these engines will be fine with just a new timing chain as the sprockets dont wear much.


Watch ebay and bearings and rings can be found real right if you know prices and such.

These engines use select fit bearings on both rods and mains.
I have seen Std Std and also unders std and so on but never mismatched between rods.

The rods will usually all the be the same size and so will the mains.
The numbers will be on the inserts if they are still from Ma General

This is all metric sizing. the numbers will be followed by US

You can also find the upper and lower shells on the same throw a different size.

If they are all close to STD use STD bearings.
Mine had some .0005 (in inches) under rods but I used STDs as the select fit stuff is only available from the MA General and they are spendy.

Clevite 77 is a good choice on bearings.

OH BTW when I yanked the 94 down the only thing I removed was the hood I blocked the radiator with some plywood.
The engine will come out very easy.
I used my BOBCAT and hung an air chain hoist and did the whole removal myself. (Except removal of the hood)

Easy job from where you are now. Get rid of the exhaust manifolds before you pull and then replace them after the fresh one is back in.

There is plenty of room otherwise.
The only nasty is getting the two upper bell housing bolts out as the fuel lines run up to a bracket that is attached with stud tops and lock nuts there.



Good luck and let us know.

Robyn

[j_k_auto]

Ok here are the results of this test:eek: :( :mad: Going from drivers side front to back then to pass side front to back

df pf
450 420
440 450
460 480
380 440

I got what I believe is blow by. check the vids on that. Also I have oil in the pass side 3rd one back check the pics
I am not sure why the oil is in the cylinder and filling it up also I do not know why the one is lower then the rest.. This really sucks. I just wish it was better but it is not. :( :mad:

here is the links
pics
http://www.putfile.com/j_k_auto/images/124193
video
http://www.putfile.com/j_k_auto/media
They are the first 6

[coinball]

I think all 6.5TD's in PA have horrible blowby...

I'm in the same boat as you, only I'm gonna start with a fresh block...that and I'm curious just how much dino oil I can burn with my engine until it says it's had enough...

Good luck with the project!

[Robyn]

#2 and #7 are the low ones. My bet says #7 is leaking water and this may also be why the compression is low.

Get the little beast out and do a post mortem on it and go from there.

All is not lost. As long as your block and crank are good your set.
The pistons and rods generally fair well in these too.
Look for the normal stuff such as scuffing and so on.
The piston crowns in these have a hard Black coating on them to help reject heat. Inspect them carefully in the area around the Recardo Bowl for any sign of cracks.

The valve seals are not all the great in these engines and when they fail you can get a fair amount of oil seep down the valve guides.

If the cylinder has a minimal ridge at the top probably a hone and re-ring is all it will need.

Your compression on all but 2 & 7 are fine. The 380 is the one that runs up the red flag.

The head gaskets at the 2-7 locations are notorious for failing. The gasket soft material goes away over time from the coolant presence and then the fire ring will corrode and poof its over.

As long as there is no nasty etching into the block from the fire ring you wont have to deck the block.
Felpro makes a .010" thicker gasket to allow for a deck job.

Robyn

[billschall]

Watched some of your videos Joe.

The turbo fan slop isn't an issue - yet - but I'd keep my eye on it. Mine's about the same and doesn't make any noise.

However the play in the wastegate doesn't look too good.

Regarding blow-by. GMCTD had posted the following in a thread some time back in response to a CDR question I had:

Then, engine idling at op temp, pull the dipstick

Place a 36" length of 3/8" clear vinyl tubing over the dipstick tube

Place the open end in a container of water

Keep it much lower than the dipstick tube - prevents water in the crankcase

At 2000rpm, the water should rise in the tube about 1-2"

The higher the water level in the tube, the more restrictive the air filter - dirty, wet, etc.

Bubbles in the water means excess blow-by

If it blows all the water outta the container, ya gots really big problems.

But, the test should give you some indication of how much oil to expect thru the CDR


PM or email me if we can set my timing Friday evening.

Thanks,
-Bill

[j_k_auto]

thanks for the post. I was wondering if the oil in the cylinder would bother you? It is just laying in there.:eek:

[j_k_auto]

However the play in the wastegate doesn't look too good.



that is why I replaced my turbo with a gm8. The videos were to show everyone so I could figure out what I wanted to do. Atleast it is updated now

Also I do know about this test but I do not have my engine running to check that blowby. Never expected to go in the wrong direction with the truck but since I got it a year ago it't been fighting me...:eek: :mad:

[billschall]

thanks for the post. I was wondering if the oil in the cylinder would bother you? It is just laying in there.:eek:

yep. if it were me, I pull the heads first & get 'em tanked/magged, etc... If the machine shop gives the heads a thumbs up, then yank the block.

Saw your compression videos after my last post then realized that the blow-by test would be rather difficult at this stage. <duh>

That li'l puff of smoke coming out of #6 (the oily one, I believe) thru the intake port doesn't look to promising.

Bummer, dude. I feel yer pain...

[j_k_auto]

well I am probably going to yank it and go from there. I figured I would atleast got a couple of years out of this engine but my luck just stinks. Oh I bet if I go through with this I will find the heads and block are junk:mad: . Even though the heads are only 3 yrs young.

[Robyn]

Not to dispare

If the rig is in otherwise nice shape its well worth fixing the engine.

A new Burb will tear up $50K to buy and to my knowledge a diesel is not in the offing.

There is every reason to be optimistic about the foundation.

Our 94 had 230K on it when we bought it off of ebay in Feb 05 and it had 238K when the engine finally said enough.

Fresh set of clearwater heads, rings, bearings and sundry other little goodies and a couple months down and it was good as new again.

Block was near perfect with no cracks and so little wear in the cylinders that there was no reason to bore it.

The heads were used up though. :eek:

New injectors and I rebuilt the turbo with a bearing and seal kit just for drill and this thing runs as good if not better than new.

Just dig in your heels and go at it like you's a killin snakes :D

The total cost for parts and some limited machine shop (tank and Mag) was under $2K

I see that rig remaining in our stable for some time as it is worth more as a spare driver now than it would sell for.

Go for it and keep us posted all the way..
We'll be here if you need advice along the way for sure.

Robyn

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

Upside potential: If they don't pave the roads where you live with salt in the winter, it might be worth running 'er over to Ziebart & get it rustproofed, it's pretty reasonable. Then get it insured for high value - lots of insurance companies will gladly do this & at not that much of a premium, they just want pics on file. That will protect your investment. There's no reason a fresh motor shouldn't put 'er back on the road for 10 more years. :)

Blessings!

[j_k_auto]

That li'l puff of smoke coming out of #6 (the oily one, I believe) thru the intake port doesn't look to promising.

Well I think I know how I got oil around the piston. I put my turbo return line in a can and it just started to over flow. I quickly wiped it up but some must of went down the intake. At least that is solved.:D

[tommac95]

Dr Lee suggested to (regarding block cracks) :
just wipe down the bearing-web inner block areas to clean them up good ...
then take like a coffee break , and when you come back , the oil should have visibly emerged from any cracks.

In most cases the lower end bearings are OK, and the cranks are fine if the dampener is maintained.

John Kennedy suggests removal of engine when replacing heads just to enable resurfacing the firedeck (upper mating surface of block tends to be eroded/corroded where headgasket compresses ring onto castiron block surface).

Robyn has had good luck with head rebuilds . I think the heads , at $500/ea from peninsular , are cheap enough to be considered disposable. I also think they are by design disposed to cracking , by virtue of the induction-hardened seats. And the new OEM heads have larger coolant passages....

I removed some block "freeze-out" plugs , and found them to be absolutely free of any corrosion on my '95 with 175K Mi -- the aluminum radiator also had NO indications of any corrosion at all ... courtesy of the pink coolant.

I would not worry about the compression [the one cylinder IS a bit low] , but if you have the time to go over it , it would be nice to pull the rod bearings , and measure bore wear. Six of my bores were worn .002 oversize , the other two were worn .007" oversize. I think one of my pistons has a little slap , esp at certain temps.

IFF you establish No obvious block cracks , then you really know something useful...

My feeling is replacing the headgaskets is good insurance , but it is a job , too.

[billschall]

Well I think I know how I got oil around the piston. I put my turbo return line in a can and it just started to over flow. I quickly wiped it up but some must of went down the intake. At least that is solved.:D

Hahaha! OK, really I'm laughing with you on this one. When I did my compression check, I had oil running EVERYWHERE from the turbo return line. Duh - live & learn.

[j_k_auto]

Ok I am in the process of getting the drivers side head off. I was wondering if there is a certain order you would take them out? I know there is one for the install but not sure about removal?

thanks joe

[stingthieves]

Remove bolts in reverse order of installation on a room temperature head. These are tork to yield bolts so just toss em old ones and get new ones to put your refurbished head back on.

FEL PRO part number ES72724 - you will need two sets

[j_k_auto]

Thanks now I have to find what the order is. picture of sequence.

[stingthieves]

Removal is less of a drama than installation but still you should take the task to hand.... You could simply work clock wise in an ever decreasing circle and remove them successfully.

[j_k_auto]

Ok got it I will get pics of everything and go from there. I hope to see there is a blown hg at the number 7 piston And not the head or block.

[j_k_auto]

Here are all my pics. If you need more pics of something let me know. What do you think?
here is the link again.

http://www.putfile.com/j_k_auto/images/124780

Thanks joe;)

[stingthieves]

Here are all my pics. If you need more pics of something let me know. What do you think?


Well I Think - have a valve job done at a shop that understands how to set the valve height in the new seat - reuse the valves if they can be surfaced - get the water jacket sleeves installed - the right shop will know what you asking them to do - They will lap the seat and check each pocket under vaccume to ensure each seat is sealing

if they look at you and your request with a dumb blank stare - don't leave your heads there - find another.

Then put it back together and enjoy the ride

But what I think and a buck and half only gets you coffee!

[j_k_auto]

Here is the pass side head and block link

http://www.putfile.com/j_k_auto/images/124795

So from all these photos does it look like my headgaskets were blown?

[j_k_auto]

I was checking the pistons and cyclinders out. Here are some pics of the second one back on pass side. Has some scoring along the walls. I can pick them with my finder nail. :(

here are the pics..

http://www.putfile.com/j_k_auto/images/124804

[twaddle]

There is only one question. Are you intending keeping the truck for a while?
If the answer is yes then I'm afraid it's an engine out job next.

Going by the pictures, the engine has been roasted and that particular piston is pretty close to seizing in the bore. I would be surprised if you do not find other pistons showing signs of overheating damage. There is a cylinder next to the severe one looks like it has pick up lines on it too.

Sorry, but it ain't good!!

Regards

Jim

[stingthieves]

New perspective

I rescind my previous position

buy coffee!

[j_k_auto]

Well Here is my update of where I am at.

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/7/18701324714.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5908390)

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/7/18701324757.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5908389)

http://img2.putfile.com/thumb/7/18701324797.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=5908388)

[a5150nut]

I think you need some new engine mounts. That thing fell clear out of the truck! :eek: :eek: :eek:

[Robyn]

Well now

The fun part begines NOW.:D

Looked though some of the pix.

cant tell near what can be seen in person though.

Did the head gaskets come off in enough of one piece to see if the #2 and #7 holes were about to take on water from the water passage???

What is the Block casting Number last 3 digits 599?? 506??

Take a good look at the area in the lower back quadrant of #8 hole about 3/4 inch from the deck. This is at the bottom of the head bolt boss.
make sure you dont have a crack in the cylinder that runs radially around the bore.

Evidence of water in this area is not a good sign.
The cracks in this area can be seen with the eye and the cylinder will be discolored in close proximity too.

Looked like the cylinders dont have a load of ridge in them either.

Clean mag hone and go again :D

You will no doubt after getting the beast all apart fall into a tad bit of an emossional hole but not to worry.

I would say, get the block checked out right quick by a shop that can tank and mag it and knows what and where to look on the 6.5 for issues.

You should be able to have the little creature back together and purring fine within a month or so.

Great time to detail the engine bay and carefully wash out all the crud.

With the engine out you can very nicely crawl in there and go over the wiring and stuff that is on the firewall and other places that are nasty to reach otherwise.

Sweet time to replace the heater hoses and stuff too.

Check out the coolant bottle and make sure the fill area has not started to crack where the cap screws in. Great time to replace it if its bad.
Mine was on it kast legs so while the area was getting washed out a new bottle and hoses went in too.

Seems that much of the little wire clips and heat shielding items dissapear too over time and now is a great time to find new stuff to put back in when you reassemble the truck.

Its so nice to have a clean engine bay to put a nice fresh engine back into. :D

Keep us posted and good luck

Robyn

[j_k_auto]

I think you need some new engine mounts. That thing fell clear out of the truck! :eek: :eek: :eek:

lol but honestly the motor mouns were a pita to get off. You have to unbolt them from the frame not just the one bolt that goes through the center.:eek:

[j_k_auto]

Well now

The fun part begines NOW.:D

Looked though some of the pix.

cant tell near what can be seen in person though.

Did the head gaskets come off in enough of one piece to see if the #2 and #7 holes were about to take on water from the water passage???

What is the Block casting Number last 3 digits 599?? 506??

Take a good look at the area in the lower back quadrant of #8 hole about 3/4 inch from the deck. This is at the bottom of the head bolt boss.
make sure you dont have a crack in the cylinder that runs radially around the bore.


Yes the head gasket stayed on the heads. my block is a 292. Number eight is drivers side back or pass side back?
thanks joe

[j_k_auto]

Well I got it stripped down finally. The cam bearing look copperish and the main bearings well not sure. The bearings have some flaking like I never saw before. Other then that I don't think they were to bad. I will get more pics of everything so you can see. Also what would you tack pictures of so while I am put there I can get them to. ;)

Thanks for everyones help
Joe

[tommac95]

OK , good you got the news now.
Like Robyn said , you REALLY need find out about cracks/block now , hopefully from a pro w. experience on 6.5s ... but maybe do a check yourself, first. A good machinist should be able to interpret/decypher the bearing appearance; definitely do new oil pump in view of bearing condition.

Agree with Twadle that you want new rings minimum in at least one hole !

The heads look like advertised (newish) , but mine looked OK to my biased eyes before they were glass-beaded, and many cracks showed. For interpretation , you might bring to machinist before cleaning up.

Interesting to find what the block #s mean....

[j_k_auto]

Interesting to find what the block #s mean....

It means it is an order block casting. impo it is better than the 506 block (newer version)
Also I will be updating my oil pump to the high volume pump

Also here are my updated pics.

http://www.putfile.com/j_k_auto/images/125122

[Robyn]

#8 is Pass rear cylinder

RH is 2468
LH is 1357