New truck... UH-OH!

[bigbillyboy]

So, after a 4 month search, I bought the truck below. Drove it home 800 miles that day, It drove perfect except these two issues:
1. starter shot, lots of grinding - Replaced with Reman unit, and problem solved!
2. started loosing coolant on the trip home. Not much, but had to top it off a few times. No smoke at all, oil very black no sign of water, minimal pressure in coolant tank. It absolutely was not dripping water anywhere. - after installing the starter, I fired it up and it smoked white ALOT!. It had not even had a trace of smoke in the previous starts (all in one day) and the previous 800 miles (all in one day). So, most likely head gasket or head cracks.
Is there any way to know which without removing the head? And assuming it's just a head gasket, approximately how long does it take to R&R both Gaskets and approximate cost? Im a fairly savvy mechanic with no experience with these motors, but lots with Mercedes/VW Diesels. Is there anything else I should innspect while inside? I forgot to mention it is a Reviva complete drop in engine with about 30K on it. Does anybody know anything about these motors? Do they have a good reputation? Websight looks good www.revivaco.com

i know, lots of questions..
thanks,
jason

[redbird2]

glad to hear you found your truck

1st how did it start after you put starter on long crank time slow start? first I would check the glow plugs to make sure they are good and working you will get white smoke if it starts with out the GP coming on like they should.
you stated never smoked on start on drive home the engine was warm then after you warm it up does it still smoke on start ups?

2nd how much AF are we talking a gallon ever stop gallon for the whole trip what?

before you start tearing into the engine first pressure test the cooling system the quick dis connector at the water manifold has been know for leaking, seeping water pump, radiator again check all external coolant system first
make sure you test it after you get the truck to operating temperature could be a warm leak something opening up when hot, you can also test the coolant for the presents of exhaust gases

good luck

[Robyn]

If you have a cracked head, block or a bad gasket the sucker will pressurize the coolant system and blow off over the overflow.

If its just bluish white smoke and clears up its an injector issue and not a big amount of grief.

Once you get a head leak or gasket issue its down hill real quick.

So if there is no pressure in the cooling system (above normal) you should be fine.

Hope this helps

Robyn

[bigbillyboy]

glad to hear you found your truck
Me too, (I think!)


1st how did it start after you put starter on long crank time slow start?
Started in about three revolutions of the engine from cold start, and ran smooth.


2nd how much AF are we talking a gallon ever stop gallon for the whole trip what?
I went through several (3? 4?) gallons from Sacramento to Portland (500miles) did not leak use any during the first 250 miles.



If its just bluish white smoke and clears up its an injector issue and not a big amount of grief.
It is white smoke. I re-read my post and forgot to mention that when I started it up after installing the starter and it smoked, I shut it down and noticed that the coolant tank was empty (I had just filled it up when I parked it the night before. hmmmm... I pulled the dipstick again, and I've got water in the pan, but the oil is still black, not milky like it typically is, if there is a lot of water in oil that is emulsified by the oil pump. So, there is definately a leak that is letting water in the crankcase. Is it possible that the head gasket started to go on the trip home, but because it was up to temp the whole way home that I just consumed water, but didnt' smoke? Then when it cooled off overnight it let water seap past the now relaxed gasket and fill the pan? I have not let it get warm since I am sure that the water in the pan will ruin the motor.

[bl78ljb]

I just had a Reviva engine put in my truck from my local mechanic who does a lot of work on the 6.5. They use the new Optimizer 6500 blocks and the complete drop in engines come with a 2 year unlimited mile warranty, so that is something to look into. They also dyno test the engines (you can get the spec sheet by giving them the serial number). From the research I did and from my mechanic's experience they build their engines with Medium Duty 6.5 use in mind (and from driving MD and HD truck in the past most of those drivers are very hard on the trucks), and seem to use quality parts. My only trouble is electronic, but they paid under warranty to put an FSD cooler from DSG on my truck and covered the LP diagnostics (but not the labor and part) when I had my LP problem shortly after the engine install.

[arveetek]

I just had a Reviva engine put in my truck from my local mechanic who does a lot of work on the 6.5. They use the new Optimizer 6500 blocks and the complete drop in engines come with a 2 year unlimited mile warranty, so that is something to look into. .

A little off topic here, but I'm a little confused. Does Reviva sell complete Optimizer 6500 engines from GEP (General Engine Products)? Or do they claim to remanufacture 6.5L engines using new GEP Optimizer blocks? Their website claims to sell remanufactured 6.5L engines with "new" blocks, but that doesn't really mean anything, and they don't show anything about GEP or the Optimizer 6500.

What I'm getting at is this: it has been shown several times in these forums that GEP doesn't sell "new" Optimizer 6500 blocks to ANYONE. You can purchase a new GEP Optimer 6500 complete diesel engine, and that's it.

What I'm wondering is if you have a real GEP Optimizer 6500 engine or a Reviva remanufactured engine?

Casey

[bl78ljb]

What I got from them is it is a new optimizer block and heads, I didn't specifically ask about anything else as those were the two big things I was concerned about as far as reliability, and I also know that the electronic injection components are the "most up to date version" but I didn't ever clarify if they were new or new model rebuilt (they have a 1 year unlimited mileage warranty on the electronics and IP). Their site leaves a lot to be desired but I had a great e-mail conversation with one of the sales people who seemed farily knowledgeable about the 6.5 and also was nice enough to send me the dyno specs on my engine. Oh yes, and the compression is 20.2:1 on these engines (as per the AM General website and the Reviva sales person confirmed this). they were very candid about telling me they used the Optimizer engine and I cannot remember if he used the word "long block" or not but that is what I thought when I read his e-mail and that is on my home PC.

[bl78ljb]

Also, I did confirm that the engine is NOT remanufactured, that was made very clear to me when I asked about the specifics and I was informed that it was a 2007 casting, they apparently don't bother remaning the old 6.5s they require a core so they can part them out but they don't care if the core has a rod through the block or not (my cracked block was accepted with a full core refund according to the mechanic).

[bigbillyboy]

Unfortunately the warranty on mine is up. It was installed in 2003, and the warranty ran out in November of 2005. I just picked the truck up a week ago, and was very impressed - up until the head gasket went out. It sounds like these heads that are on it..."optimizer" heads, are of good quality? So, most likely a headgasket and not a cracked head....does that sound right?

Even though the truck has had the new engine since 2003, it has only had 30k miles put on it since the drop in.

It sounds like there is not a ton of familiarity with this reviva engine.

jason

[bl78ljb]

I can't speak for a Reviva engine from 2003 as it may have been a reman then I never got the information as to when the started using the Optimizer engines. I would go to their website and contact the sales department to find out about your particular serial number engine. The sales folks were very helpful when I e-mailed them.

[rameye]

cant help but wonder if this isnt a China block in GEP clothing!

you make it sound like they are just a little bit evasive for me!

[bl78ljb]

Not evasive at all, they answered all the questions I asked them and my mechanic has done business with them for many years (mostly for medium duty trucks and equipment) using not only the 6.5 but many other diesel engines they supply. They do not typically sell "direct to consumer" (I believe you can only purchase their products through authorized dealers) that is likely why they don't have full specs on their website. I wouldn't be so quick to write of a company that has been in business since 1944, and catering to the heavy equipment industry. They used to go by the name "Dealers Manufacturing Co." Go to Google and look them up before criticizing them for using inferior products.

[rameye]

I'm not really being too critical here...maybe I misread something..

The way i see it, there are 2 sources for brand new, not remanned blocks...

1) China

2) GEP/Peninsular/Hummer

You would think that if this were a brand new block with the new alloy they would just come out and say that loud and clear.

Maybe I just misunderstood your post, your description of them answering you seemed vague. (long block/new block/old innards etc)

Apparently our friends in the orient have gotten very good at copying castings, right down to the numbers and symbols. So whenever I here its a new style, new improved casting, but not GEP etc, it is a little concerning.

I'm shopping for a new block/engine now and have experienced some bait and switch thats all.

Please, no offense intended.

[bl78ljb]

I think this should clarify the Reviva block issue. Here is a quote from John Hudson the salesman I communicated with via e-mail. "In regards to your questions about our 6.5 engines, we do use the General Engine Products Optimizer block with 20.2:1 pistons."

[rameye]

thats sounds very promising...how much??

[bl78ljb]

I cannot remember the price of the engine itself as I had a lot of other work done on the truck at the same time since it was out of commission for a while I figured I pay the mechanic to do it so I didn't have to worry about that stuff when I got it back (brakes, ball joints etc). The whole thing with engine, labor, other work and state inspection was about 11K, guestimating I think the engine was about 8K of that and that was the complete drop in which comes with a new IP, turbo (mine was wasted due to coolant being sucked through from the breather), exhaust manifolds etc. The price may also depend on the type of IP required (mechanical v electronic) and other factors. I have been impressed with their warranty so far covering a remote mount FSD cooler with new module and the diagnosis for my LP that went bad 3 weeks after the engine was put in.

[bigbillyboy]

The head gasket...

About how difficult is it to pull the heads and replace the gasket? I read up some on the different head bolts to use, but I also read up on a 10 (12?) head gasket?

Pushrod valves, so no cam timing. Can I remove the headbolts and head in one piece, or do I need to remove the lifters, etc. I haven't started yet, but tomorrow night I dig into the head gaskets. Any suggestions?

Thanks
Jason

[twaddle]

Hi Jason,
I always try to pin point the actual area or cause of a problem which can save a lot of hassle and prevent pulling things apart that are not to blame for the failure.

I recently had a head gasket fail with my 96 Suburban, it had the same symptoms as your truck, coolant loss, white smoke and finally the temperature gage showed warmer than usual temperatures while pulling a trailer.
The first thing I did was fill the expansion tank right to the top, fired the engine up and found bubbles entering the expansion tank. OK something is happening.
To find which head gasket had failed I removed the cross over thermostat housing leaving the coolant in the engine up to head level, disconnect/remove the fan belt so the water pump is not pumping. Start the engine, hopefully there will we be bubbles showing at the head port with the faulty head gasket.

I replaced the head gasket in chassis and it was the turbo side which is a PITA but it did give me a chance to get in to change my injectors as well.
Some folks recommend taking the engine out to change the head gaskets but if you are confident with the spanners I would suggest change the gasket in chassis and it is recommended that the head bolts be changed due to their stretch limitations as they are a "waisted bolt".

Hope this helps some.

Jim

[bigbillyboy]

Thanks. I appreciate any tips or insight prior to starting. I will drain the oil (it has water in it, not creamy, but water droplets) and re-fill with good oil tonight. After that, I think I will start it up and check which head is leaking by the "bubble" method described here.

Are the head bolt standard bolts, or are they the star pattern bolts, allen bolts, or what?

Thanks to everyone for all of the help. It is great to have a resource like this available.

Jason

[twaddle]

Hi Jason,
I would recommend that you get the correct Head bolts as the tensile strength needs to be up to spec or there is a danger of insufficient pressure on the gasket if the bolt is too soft or breaks or stretches when you torque them the desired amount.
You should be able to get the bolts from the same supplier as the head gasket kit.

Also if you are unsure when the injectors were last changed and if it is the turbo side head that has to be done, I would suggest changing or getting the injectors overhauled (including the drivers side) while you have access to everything.
Perhaps the previous owner can tell you if the injectors have recently been repalced or how many miles are on them?

Good luck

Jim

[bigbillyboy]

30K on entire drop in engine. I assume the injector are fine, as the truck didn't smoke at all for the entire trip home. Startup cold when I bought it produced no smoke at all, and hard acceleration also produced no smoke. Truth be told, it was (i guess is still) one of the smoothest running diesels, it just consumes alot of water.

I know that there is some discussion on which head bolts to use, that it would seem like a headbolt/gasket kit from ss diesel would be the best way to go. IF I didn't want to wait for the head gasket to be shipped, is it possible to get specific brands of head gaskets/bolts locally? what brands are better, what brands should I stay away from? Does it make a huge difference?

[bigbillyboy]

Also,
When you guys change the head gaskets, do you typically replace all of the gaskets (intake, exhaust, valve, etc), or just the head gasket?

[twaddle]

Hi,
I changed all. The head gasket came as a single gasket, ie not in a kit and the other gaskets (manifolds and crossover tube) came as a kit which did not include the plenum lid gasket. I was told that the plenum gasket was available in a separate kit but I found one in a kit I already had.
All were FelPro gaskets.

Regards

Jim

[bigbillyboy]

I finally received my new heads and will begin the process of installing them this evening. Based on what I have read, this is what seems to be the head replacement consensus:

1. replace head gasket and bolts with FEL-PRO gasket and new bolts, making sure that the head bolts have the sealant - torque appropriately
NOTE: some of the bolts are in difficult to reach places, how important is it to get that final 90degree turn in one fluid motion? Is it really bad if It takes two attempts to get it all the way to 90?

2. check/replace glow plugs/injectors
3. replace lower intake gasket
4. install exhaust manifold WITHOUT exhaust gaskets, and use Anti-Seize on the bolts
5. Install valve covers WITHOUT the cork gaskets, just using high temp RTV (suggestions on brand or type?)
6. install intake manifold with new intake gaskets (no RTV on the gaskets). Do I use the Anti-Seize on the intake bolts?
7. flush cooling system and refill - Should I use conventional or extended life? We use Extended life - diesel blend in our CAT powered trucks at work. As I understand it, it has an additive that prevents the wet sleeve cylinder from corroding. Would this be a better option?
8. Re-fill the oil with Mobil 1 turbo diesel blend.
9. Drive the suburban happily for the next 300,000 miles.

any suggestions/thoughts?
Thanks for all the help so far.
Jason

[bigbillyboy]

I intend to chase the threads with a tap prior to installing the head bolts.

[Robyn]

The extended life coolant is great just dont ever mix any water or regular stuff with it. It will ruin the coolant.

You are only about 30 miles from me ya know that??? :D :D

[bigbillyboy]

You are only about 30 miles from me ya know that??? :D :D

Oh, I noticed. Don't think I haven't considered how to plead for help should I find myself in a bind:) . Fortunately working on this thing has been pretty straight forward. It's much easier than my Overhead Cam Mercedes diesel! I have seen a couple of your posts on Craigslist, and chuckled. It's funny how the internet can connect with perfect strangers across the continent and across town.

You've actually been a great help to me, and it seems like to a alot of people.

jason

[Robyn]

Thanks Jason

If you ever want some help or want a one on one real time trouble shooting session just let me know.
You can drop me a PM and I can get you my cell phone ##

later

Robyn

[bigbillyboy]

Thanks,
That is appreciated

jason

[bigbillyboy]

I didn't get as much time as hoped this weekend to work on the truck, but did get one of the heads back on, torqued down, rockers, covers, etc. It wasn't as bad as I was expecting. when I pulled the head on the other side, there was only one pilot busing between the head and the block??!? There should have been two. I'll have to swing by a machine shop today.

Anyway, another question is: how do I get the little plug out of the passenger's side rear head? This is the plug that fills the hole that is the temp sender on the driver's side head. It has a recessed square point indentation. It is too big for a 1/4" ratchet, and too small for a 3/8 ratchet...although, it sure seems close to being 3/8 ratchet size.

also, what size socket do the injectors take? about 24MM?

thanks
jason

[bigbillyboy]

Thanks in large part to my brother who stayed up with me last night until 2am, The suburban is back on the road. Seems to be running great, but I will keep an eye on it for the short term.

Thanks for all the help. You guys saved me a ton.

Oh, does anyone know what the capacity of the cooling system is?

[bigbillyboy]

This weekend I loaded up the truck and set off with the family for a 6 day camping trip to central washington. 900 miles later, the truck worked perfectly, didn't even begin to heat up and purred all weekend. Thanks for all the help from you all. With some luck, The truck will operate trouble free for several years.

thanks
jason

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

"Oh, does anyone know what the capacity of the cooling system is?" From memory, ~ 24 qts.

Blessings!