LMM Info - You can't mess with fresh air box, computer or exhaust - WARRANTY VOID

[throckmorton]

I'm sure this information will not be well received by those looking forward to hot rodding the new LMM Duramax Diesel. This information is included with the owners manual and documentation on delivery of a new Duramax Diesel equipped truck. Specifically, no fresh air boxes, no reprogramming of the ECM and no exhaust modifications. If you attempt to reprogram the ECM and then un-program it before taking it to a dealer for service, you will still be caught by the new computers. Don't try it unless your prepared to void your warranty. Members need to know that GM is serious about the following:

[INDENT]AFTERMARKET ENGINE PERFORMANCE ENHANCEMENT KITS
Some aftermarket engine performance enhancement kits promise a way to increase the horsepower and torque level of your truck. You should be aware that these kits may have detrimental effects on the performance and life of the power train. The Allison Automatic transmission and Duramax Diesel engine have been designed and built to offer industry-leading durability and performance in the most demanding of applications. The transmission

[Dakster]

This shouldn't come as a surprise or shock to anyone. I'm sure the older trucks had statements that modifying them would void the warranty...

Just now that modification can cause damage to another component, the DPF.

[DMAX-HD]

It's sounds way differant then the older models - thay can catch you now!

[Buck]

There is NO such thing as "tamper proof" in the computer world.
It is just a matter of time before people "crack" the LMM just like the LLY and LBZ.

[DMAX-HD]

I guess I'm more worried about some internal flag being tripped telling the dealer an after-market tune has been installed. After all how hard would it be to monitor fuel rates and detect a fuel rate that is not possible with stock programming and store that number. Personally I've been a software engineer for close to 15 years (not in automotive industry) and I'd have to beleive there'd been an infinate number of ways to tell if after-market tunes have been loaded.

[DmaxMaverick]

I guess I'm more worried about some internal flag being tripped telling the dealer an after-market tune has been installed. After all how hard would it be to monitor fuel rates and detect a fuel rate that is not possible with stock programming and store that number. Personally I've been a software engineer for close to 15 years (not in automotive industry) and I'd have to beleive there'd been an infinate number of ways to tell if after-market tunes have been loaded.

I'm sure there are a dozen ways for them to do it, but I doubt the fuel rate is one of them. The programmers and boxes can do what they do because they lie to the computer about the fuel rate. This is why the DIC will report incorrect fuel usage and mileage with one installed. If there is a warranty issue, they still have to show the mod was the cause of the problem. They can't deny a warranty claim for a fuel pump if you have aftermarket radio knobs, although some dealers will try.

[DMAX-HD]

Yup hear what your saying, just used fuel rate as an example. In general I always had good luck with the '03 and the Juice/Atitude when it came to warranty stuff. But I did take it off prior to service - EVERY TIME. Even if it was for oil change.

[carco]

Cat plugged into my 02 C6500 w/Cat7.2L engine and said good, no evidence of a power box, engine warranty is still good. Dealer told me that their ECM,s will flag if ever a power box is introduced into the system. GM will and maybe have already programmed their ECM,s to tattle. bob...............

[D_R_C]

Yup hear what your saying, just used fuel rate as an example. In general I always had good luck with the '03 and the Juice/Atitude when it came to warranty stuff. But I did take it off prior to service - EVERY TIME. Even if it was for oil change.

I don`t think you can fool these new trucks with all this new emission and regen and computers, why would anyone be crazy enough to even try.

After my bad luck with my 03 Ford 6.0 and Ford voiding my warranty being ratted off from a second hand source to the local Ford rep.
My truck had not been in a local Ford Dealership for over 3 years long before I started doing mods,only a local private shop had worked on my truck.

I had a major engine issue caused by error from a tech doing head gaskets with engine in truck and cab on he didnot get #7 rocker properly placed,it was cocked and wore the kepper in less than 2,000 miles and dropped the valve.
This was done at a small town Ford dealership 200 miles from my home where I bought the truck and never had mods on when I took it there for work.

First injectors,then turbo,followed by headgaskets then the dropped valve over a 8 month period,I did finally get the last issue fixed after fighting for 2 months then I sold the 6.0 and then went back to GM.

All this power stuff is cool and makes the diesel run awesum, but is it worth trashing a $12K-$15K engine plus/or a $7K-$9k Trans,I don`t think so,don`t let these people fool you selling this stuff,it is just not worth it.
Unless a person has the $$$$$,and does not care about waisting $$$$$,on mods that will cause issues and problems on the new emission engines.

[DmaxMaverick]

I agree, DRC.

We've said it time and time again. Once you modify your vehicle, you become your own warranty department, in regards to the system modified. Let your conscience and common sense be your guide.

That said, these are computers we are talking about. Actual physical indicators aside, there will be methods to hide mods. Mark my words. A computer only knows, and can only store, information available to it. It isn't hard to hide, or obscure, data. Computers are easily swapped, erased, rewritten, etc. EFI Live and such are available to the general public, and they will find a way. It's as simple as having a spare PCM, for example, so the original will have no record of anything that occured while it was "away". The price comes to the rest of us, when warranty claims are honored to a person that didn't have a conscience (or used it), and put one over on GM. This problem is not unique to vehicle warranty issues. You wanna play, you're gonna pay. I don't know of any reputible aftermarket power mod that doesn't have a disclaimer the mod may effect the vehicle warranty, and rightly so.

[Dakster]

Even a spare PCM can be detected. A simple flag for miles driven on the PCM would be the tell all.. Why Mr. Jones, you show 20k miles on your truck and the PCM thinks it has only been driven 3k miles... Granted an EFI Live setup could "burn in" the correct mileage.... It is always a cat and mouse game and the last programmer wins.

Another tell tale sign, you can also look at the bolts holding the PCM in, why do they look like they've been taken out?

One of the reason these trucks are now $50k+ is because of warranty claims. NOT the only reason, but ONE of the many reasons.

You play, If GM Pays, GM charges us all. Not saying they SHOULDN'T cover legitimate claims or use a "power box" to void your power window switch... I hope GM did their homework and this new truck continues to be flawless and awesome. It should allow GM to recover and become profitable again.

Don't believe me on how warranty claims can bankrupt a company? Just look at Ford and Navistar. They are in a heated dispute over warranty claims. Niether wants to admit they messed up. Although the new Flame Thrower Exhaust Option is pretty cool looking. Just check off option code FTE on the order sheet... Apparently, it is only available with a 6.4L diesel.

[DmaxMaverick]

I was only using the PCM as an example. It is none of GM's business if you've replaced your PCM outside of warranty unless there is specific language that prevents it. Miles driven are also none of their business, unless they suspect you've tampered with your odo.

As I said, I don't advocate the "work arounds", just saying it is possible, beyond any doubt. There will be a way. Legal or not.

The high cost of the vehicles (and the shop costs) is one of the points I was trying to make. There, we agree, and I don't think anyone will disagree.

Yep. And it's not the first time Ford and IH have been down that road. I think they may be getting fed up with Ford's politics and policy. Ford's remedy for the FTE is no remedy, IMO.

[Robyn]

I suspect that eventually the manufactures will bury enough teltale electronics into the sytem that it will be very difficult to get one up on them.

Try something and the little wench from ON STAR comes out of the speaker system and says "Ah Ah AH your not supposed to do that" and then the truck will stop working and the warranty cops show up and haul yer butt off. :D

[throckmorton]

I suspect that eventually the manufactures will bury enough teltale electronics into the sytem that it will be very difficult to get one up on them.

Try something and the little wench from ON STAR comes out of the speaker system and says "Ah Ah AH your not supposed to do that" and then the truck will stop working and the warranty cops show up and haul yer butt off. :D

Robyn "Missy Good Wench" is correct. If your not familiar with the latest all digital version of OnStar featuring Turn-by-Turn navigation, it is amazing technology. Don't kid yourself, there is a real benefit to the system integrations in new vehicles from the PCM, ECM, TCM, BCM and so forth. That little OnStar diagnostic email you get each month showing the status of your Engine and Transmission System, Emissions System, Air Bag System, Antilock Braking System, OnStar System, Remaining Oil Life and Mileage is no joke and should demonstrate just how tightly integrated everything is.

From what I have been told by GM trainers, yes the trucks computer systems will tell on you if you attempt any alterations to the power train regardless of how cleaver you think you are. Bottom line is if you want to play, don't get an attitude when the dealer voids your warranty. The dealer does not have to prove anything, only that you tampered with the original equipment and the results are not their responsibility.

My advice, enjoy your first 100,000 miles and then have at it. It's only money!

[Dakster]

I was only using the PCM as an example. It is none of GM's business if you've replaced your PCM outside of warranty unless there is specific language that prevents it. Miles driven are also none of their business, unless they suspect you've tampered with your odo.

As I said, I don't advocate the "work arounds", just saying it is possible, beyond any doubt. There will be a way. Legal or not.

The high cost of the vehicles (and the shop costs) is one of the points I was trying to make. There, we agree, and I don't think anyone will disagree.

Yep. And it's not the first time Ford and IH have been down that road. I think they may be getting fed up with Ford's politics and policy. Ford's remedy for the FTE is no remedy, IMO.

I think we are both in agreement on all points, just said a little differently... I don't like the band-aid fix from Ford on the DPF either- I won't buy another Ford Diesel. Ford needs to prove that they can build a quality product before I would consider one.

There will be a work-around and then a catch. Just like radars were invented to catch speeders and then radar detectors so you would know before hand you would be clocked and then radar-dectector detectors. Where does it end?

I'm sure many people have gotten warranty work done on their truck despite having a power adder that should have voided the warranty.

[JohnC]

I'm sure many people have gotten warranty work done on their truck despite having a power adder that should have voided the warranty.

What did I miss? Have they repealed the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act? If not, they still have to PROVE that the modification caused or at least contributed to the failure to deny warranty coverage. Sure, they can make your life miserable, but, when push comes to shove, in a court of law, if it didn't cause the failure then it didn't void the waranty.

[DmaxMaverick]

I think the term "voided warranty" is used too loosely. While some dealers will use any reason to deny an initial claim, the burden of proof is still on them to show the mod did cause, or lead to cause, the problem. GM cannot void an entire vehicle warranty because one system was modified, although some try. Problem is, so many people will take them at their first response, and just go away mad, or pay the bill. I think anytime a dealer denies a warranty claim, the customer should be required to read the M-M act decision before approving any work to be done under regular shop labor conditions. Fortunately for GM (and the rest of the mfg's), the court did not make this a condition of the order. Education is the greatest enemy of big business.

[Dakster]

JohnC,

If you read my previous post, you would have read that I would be mad that because I add a power adder to my truck that they would deny fixing my window switch... I think I may have made a confusing statement. I think that people have gotten motors and tranny's fixed that had a power adder that caused or contributed to the damage.

Can anyone in here with a straight face tell me that they think they will win in a court of law for a transmission failure when they used a power adder? Especially, when the manufacturer makes it clear, up front, and in the manual that they can cause damage to the engine and drivetrain which will not be covered under your warranty...

M-M is a great act and it prevents the manufacturer or dealer from denying coverage for adding or replacing parts with aftermarket parts. Although M-M also makes it easier for your insurance company to use cheaper aftermarket products to fix you vehicle that you would like. (not the only reason, but it can be argued). Always a double edged sword. This may be what lets another company make a replacement exhaust kit for the LMM's. I am happy with the way it performs, I just wish it was chromed...

Having said all of that, you can put an aftermarket performance enhancing product, argue that it didn't create the damage they (dealer/manuf.) said it did. You will spend more money in legal fees than it would cost to just fix the truck... You will need engineer's to testify as to the failure and they don't come cheap...

On the other hand, play by the rules, if you have a failure they will fix it. The last thing that GM or a dealer wants is bad publiclity that they are denying valid warranty claims. I know I would steer clear of the brand and especially that particular dealer.