Repower for driverless HMMWV?

[Red Whittaker]

I've transformed an '86 HMMWV into a computer-driven desert racer to compete in the driverless LA-Vegas race in March 2004. www.redteamracing.org (http://www.redteamracing.org) The vehicle is now a smart, sluggish machine. I'm pondering four engine options: (1) existing 6.2 (2) 6.5 naturally aspirated, (3) 6.5 stock turbo, and (4)6.5 custom turbo. The race will not demand screaming speed, but rock-solid endurance. Torque is invaluable to compensate for inferior computer driving, and for frequent accelerations. The transplant must be simple. I race in 105 days. Option 1, 2, 3 or 4? why?

[dieselhumvee]

If money is no object, install a 6.5 TD (center mount van turbo) with machanical injection. There is a lot more room for improvement in you rcurrent engine though. Install a K+N air filter, cut the baffle out of the stock air filter housing, install a resonator from Kascar (www.real4wd.com), and turn up the injection pump 1/6th of a turn. I have a 93 Hummer with 6.2 NA and this is what I did, the improvement was noticeable, but not extreme.

[dieselhumvee]

OK now I have some questions for you, I like the air shocks on your website, who makes them? What about the springs, are they custom? and the Shock mounts? Please give me any info you can on the details of these components, including pricing. I would love to have air shocks and be able to raise and lower the hummer.

[Red Whittaker]

Thanks, Dieselhumvee...Regarding the transplant to 6.5 or upgrade of 6.2, the scenario is to execute in 24/7 mode around Christmas, which is 3 weeks away. Hence time is as critical as money, though both count. I'll work both options for a while to reduce the surprises before calling the shot. Would you say something about WHY go to the 6.5 versus the proposed 6.2 upgrade?

I poked around real4wd for "resonator" with no result. Is this exhaust?

[Red Whittaker]

As you observe, the air shocks, springs and spring mounts on the driverless Humvee are custom. Their effect is amazing. The advantage of tuning suspension may be even more critical for the sensors and electronics on my rig than is customary on most desert racers. Thanks for taking the time to click through www.redteamracing.org (http://www.redteamracing.org) to pick up on these components. They are provided to us by Chad Hall of Team Hummer racing. See the sponsor page of our website or email direct to(info@rodhall.com). Chad's associate, Brad, did the setup.

[dieselhumvee]

Thanks for the suspension info. As a reference, my hummer weighs 6800 pounds, and accellerates at a decent pace (not sluggish but not fast either). Try calling Kascar monday, (864)422-0370, talk to Dennis. If your humvee weighs more, or you want all out racing power, a turbo upgrade would be the way to go. Do not install a 6.5 NA, it will not have any noticeable power increase over a 6.2NA. The intake exhuast and injection pump upgrades I have done are easy to do and would be of benefit with the turbo upgrade if you decide to do it later. If I had some flat highway I would do a 0-60 test for you, but I can't think of any flat stretch atround here. Here is another reference, before these mods, I had to use full throttle from every stop light, now I use half throttle, I can now maintain speed on hills that used to slow me down, and I can now increase speed on hills that I used to maintain speed on (with full throttle). It is still no tire burning torque monster, but it can get out of it's own way now, it was so slow before I thought it was dangerous, especially on interstate on ramps, I can now merge with 15-20 MPH more speed.


Here is an email from the diesel depot, a quality rebuilder of thaese engines. If you decide to do the entire engine, they can build a high performance, center mount turbo engine with military injection pump turned up, test run and ready to install.

From the diesel depot:

Tony,
Hello and thanks for your inquiry. I'm familiar with the differences in the 6.5L center turbo engines for Hummers and vans. We do have a few almost complete rear turbo kits, plus I have remanufactured rear turbo cyinder heads. In the kits I have most of the major components (i.e. turbo, exhaust manifolds, & intake manifolds). Also, if you do not already have your 4911 pump, turbo injectors, gaskets, head bolts, etc... I have these available as well. I'll list the cost of each below for you.

1. Turbo Kit: $1150
2. Re-man Cylinder Heads: $375 per head exchange (or add a $175 core charge)
3. Re-man 4911 Injector Pump: $495 exchange (or add a $275 core charge)
4. 6.5L Turbo Injectors (new): $300 per set w/ install kit
5. Head Gasket Set (fel-pro): $48
6. Head Bolts: $45
7. Intake Gasket Kit (pump installation kit): $24

I hope that this is the information that you are looking for, but please let me know if you have any other questions. Also, if you'd like a shipping rate quote send over your address. I look forward to the opportunity to help you.

Sincerely,
Jamie Avant
Diesel Depot
478-552-9510
-----Original Message-----
From: Dieselhumvee@aol.com [mailto:Dieselhumvee@aol.com]
Sent: Tuesday, October 07, 2003 7:09 PM
To: avasalv@mylink.net
Subject: 6.5 van turbo parts


Hello,

I have a 1993 civilian hummer with a 6.2 NA that I wish to get more power from. The newer hummers use a 6.5 turbo with a center mount turbo, different heads, intake and exhuast manifolds that are identical to the 6.5 GM van turbo parts. I plan to use my 6.2 short block and I wish to intstall 6.5 turbo van heads, intake, center mount turbo, exhaust manifods, etc. Please tell me if you have all of these parts and if so, at what price? I hate to shell out 6500 for a complete drop in 6.5 van/hummer engine, when my short block is in superb condition, I also plan to use a DB-2 4911 pump and TD van injectors and lines. Please advise,

Tony


(end of avant email)


Now to install a turbo engine you need a different engine cover and 1 inch body lift to clear the turbo, exhuast downpipe, and intake tubing. It would be much easier and less time consuming to cut the intake baffle, install a K+ N air filter, resonator pipe, and adjust the injection pump for more fueling. these mods could be done in as little as 3 hours and for less than $500. If you do a turbo upgrade, it will take much longer and cost 3-4K. I hope this helps. hey when this race is over, will you sell those suspension components cheap? If so I would love to buy them!!


A couple of tips, if the humvee gets stuck a there is a good method to get the factory torsen diffs to "lock" it is called Brake Throttle Modulation or BTM there is an article here:

http://www.humvee.net/hid/driving/btm.html

BTM is a method for use when you are high centered, stuck, or in a situation when one or two tires are off the ground, it works very well.

My final take on this if your humvee weighs 6800 or less, and/or if time/money is short for the turbo upgrade, do the mods I did, if time/money is no object, and/or if it weighs much over 7000 pounds, the turbo upgrade is the way to go. In either case the 6.5 NA is not the way to go.


Tony

[dieselhumvee]

Wow I just read the rules of your challenge, no human intervention at all! Some tips from a hummer owner, if you still have the 8 bolt two piece rims ditch them they are weak, the military is currently upgrading all humvees to the 12 bolt two piece rims with runflats. Runflats will save the day if your humvee experiences a flat tire. I would also add more fuel capacity than stock, if the trip is 300 miles. the newer hummers have a "TT4" traction system you may wish to incorporate, it acts on its own when wheelspin is encountered.

The goodyear MT tires are not the best choice for this type of race, I have had one sidewall failure and know other hummer owners who have as well, they do not hold up well to punctures from sharp jagged rocks. A super swamper or bogger would be ideal, these tires are nearly indestructable, make sure to get 10 plies. the website is www.intercotire.com. (http://www.intercotire.com.) I have used swampers on jeeps for years and never had a single failure, I have run over nails with them and all they do is go down to about 10 psi and stop leaking after that (a characteristic of the many plies, they tend to seal themselves at about 10 psi)I would choose the 38x12.50x16.5 swampers for toughness and appropriate size. Run the swampers at about 25 PSI and they will cushion many of the bumps too.

[Red Whittaker]

I'm leaning toward the 6.5 TD transplant. Since I'll lose the windshield, and I'm hacking bodywork anyway, can I get by without the 1" body lift? I'm already locating electronics behind the engine cover. Exhaust is one of the reasons mentioned for the lift. It seems like there will be some solution for exhaust that doesn't require the lift.

Since my computer driving is lame, the driverless vehicle will need excellent traction control, but I haven't worked that out.

Tires will be a gift from BF Goodrich. Wheels, run-flats and mounting are a donation from Hutchinson.

[dieselhumvee]

You could use the stock hummer TT4 traction control it uses tone rings on each axleshaft to sense speed at each wheel and applies the brakes on the spinning wheel to direct torque via the torsen diff to the wheel with the most traction.

The stock hummer TT4 was somewhat problematic, and would be expensive and time consuming to retrofit, but you could install detriot automatic lockers in the axles instead, they are simple, automatic, and bulletproof.

if you hack the windshield frame. you won't need the body lift.

The only other obstacle I see is the transfer case shifting, you should use 4 high unlocked for pavement and 4 high locked for off road. The reason for this is that if you lock the transfer case on a high traction surface for more than a few miles, it can cause a bind in the drivetrain and break an axleshaft, driveshaft, or the transfer case itself. The factory traction control (TT4) with the stock diffs would allow you to run in 4 high unlocked, the brake/throttle action of the factory traction control would work well even with the transfer case unlocked. he factory hummer TT4 system is a love/hate device, some claim it is the greatest thing in the world, others hate it and say it hardly works at all. I cannot comment much because my old 93 hummer doesn't have it. i would advise you to ask the question here on the hummer network discussion forum, people with experience with TT4 can tell you about thier experiences good and bad.

http://64.83.76.92/hummer/index.cfm

[Red Whittaker]

A response from the Duramax forum suggested a drop-in from Peninsular or kit from Kennedy, which are appealing approaches for getting this right and saving time. I haven't gotten through the websites tonight to get specifics so I won't understand details until Monday.

I have questions about 6.5 performance rebuilds. From today's reading it seems that a few specialists take two measures that stock rebuilders don't: (1) reinforce the bearing web with a "girdle", and (2) build lower compression ratio to enable higher boost. Are these features important?

[dieselhumvee]

The main concern is that you get a mechanically injected engine, make sure they know it will be installed in a military humvee with 24 volt electrical system and make sure they know it needs to have a hummer/van center mount turbo. if the builder makes a mistake on either the turbo configuration or installs an electronic or mechanical 12 volt injection pump, it will cost you time to get it right, this is an uncommon configuration, so make sure they are crystal clear on these two items. I would go with kennedy, from what I hear he is exceptional with customer service. you don't really need low compression pistons, they are for sustained high boost levels, but they wouldn't hurt either. the girdle is a feautre for long term use to avoid main web cracks. For a one time race, I wouldn't worry too much about these two items.

[Journeydog]

Red...
I blew the 6.5L TD in my '95 motorhome earlier this year due to some long-term previous owner neglect and serious overheating. While searching for the "perfect wave" replacement engine, I had some excellent conversations and suggestions from Bill Heath of Heath Diesel (http://www.heathdiesel.com/)
and Matt Koning of Peninsular (http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/). Either guy can provide good advice and can enthusiastically tailor an engine for your application. I urge you to take advantage of all the improvements that AM General made in the new post-GM blocks.

Just my dime...

Good luck with your project! Sounds like great fun!