best block, heads, crank,ip etc ??

[robscarab]

This is a very interesting forum. I have been reading the different theories regarding the 6.5 TD apparant bottom end weaknesses. Lots of experience here and a great resource for us newbs. I will be purchasing a custom long block next week and I would like to verify my selections with the senior members here.

Block: 1993 599

Heads: 1998 or newer (casting numbers anyone?)

IP: DB2

Crankshaft ?? Anyone have a preference for a particular casting # ?

Turbo ? I have a (recently rebuilt) gm3,is there a better one for the DB2 TD ?

The builder will be using a girdle to tie the mains together.

Balanced R/A , as recommended by others on this site

It will be going back into a 93 2wd dually crewcab pulling a 10,000lb boat or a 12,000lb 5th Wheel. I will also be adding the dual T-stat and high flow wp. I plan on driving it at the stock power level for a few weeks to break it in and then turn up the fuel and boost somewhat to gain that extra torque for towing during the summer holidays. This will give me a chance to watch the gauges at the stock power level before upping the power. Also planning on a good exhaust, down pipe,Xover pipe, custom waste gate controller (from the drivers seat) water injection etc.

Have I missed anything:confused: ? I dont mind spending on this project since I have saved alot by not buying a new truck! I just need a little moral support before heading out across the Country with 3 kids and a big dog + 10,000lbs ! This is my first used vehicle since high school and my friends collectively rolled their eyes:rolleyes: when I told them about my ingenious money saving plan! (did you say a GM diesel??? :eek: ):o

Help...??

Rob

[rameye]

I'm not a senior member here however...

However I've pretty much decided that when my engine grenades it will get a "new" style block with the better alloy composition.

If money isnt a gigantic issue here why not build a "bullet proof" engine??

I do my own work...If I have to change this motor..it'll be the last time.

my $.02

[chickenhunterbob]

I'm not a senior member either, but will offer a little moral support, for what it's worth.

There are some excellent engine builders that frequent this site though, who have shared what they have learned through experience.

I suspect you chose the 93 block since that's what you started with, and if it is not cracked, it is the general consensus that the 599 block of that vintage is probably as good as any of the older (pre late 2001) blocks.

As far as I know, most of the experts give an intercooler the edge over the water mist injection, I think though a higher initial cost, it requires no maintenance whatsoever, never run out of water when you need it the most, but I do also think that either are proven to be effective.

Good luck and welcome.

[Robyn]

Hello

Well I have built a 599 up myself and have had my hands in to many other 6.5 engines of varying block numbers.

The aweful truth is that any of the original GM blocks can crack and go away.

I have had the misfortune of having a really nice looking 599 block that I had planned on building and found cracks.

All the cranks are cast iron ( Nodular iron) and they can all go away.

The general consensus is that heavy towing over time cause the failures.

I myself am not totally convinced that towing is the culprit. It may agravate the situation though.

Here at TDP we have discussed theory on why these engines will suffer catastrophic failures to length and to date we have no concrete proof as to why this happens.

There are several things that can contribute such as a failed harmonic ballancer and or a failed lower serp belt dampener.

Heavy towing is blamed as a factor. I have seen 6.5's in heavy service log up over 300K and still be fine.

Others make less that 100K in light service in a Burb and come apart.

Your choice on the 599 block is most likely a good one.

My personal theory is that a high, mile block that is still crack free is probably stable after all the heat cool cycles its been through and will remain so.

This does not preclude a failure due to a bad ballancer ect.

If you are building from scratch, get the sucker ballanced.

Water injection is fine as long as the system is reliable and you dont get an unwanted load of water stuffed in when the engine is shut down and hydro lock the beast.

A good ideA is to place a pressure switch in the power line to the water injection system so that boost must be present in the manifold to activate.

Good luck with your project


Robyn

[robscarab]

Thanks folks, I really appreciate your help and input here. It certainly makes a project like this more interesting and fun when you have friends from afar helping you make the right decisions! I will return the favor by documenting the power increases realized as I modify the TD. (G-Tech meter)

A little history on this project- I found this truck in the local paper here. It is a well maintained dually with 430,000 kms on it ! It is very clean and has all options + a 100 gallon aluminum auxillary fuel tank installed in the bed. It has an on-board air compressor for the air bags that are installed over the rear axle. The passenger seat is also air-ride and everything works very well. It has nice graphics on the side and several Lund fiberglass body enhancements.The best part is it has a new replacement 4L80E in it with only 6,000 km on it. I bought it from the second owner whom was driving it (empty) last month and the engine started knocking badly. He decided to just buy a new truck and sold it to me.......for 2500.00 Canadian dollars!

I have been looking for a 1ton to use as a tow vehicle since my Suburban is not rated to tow the loads I have in some Provinces. I built a 496 BBC to install in the truck but when this TD Dually appeared I have changed my plans....after hours of reading this forum! The mileage thing really got me swinging back to a GM Diesel. I did own a new 97 in 97 and had alot of trouble to say the least.

Well I just finished tearing the 6.5 down that came in this truck and was amazed at the condition of the cylinder walls and main bearing surfaces! Everything looked great and the crosshatch on the cylinders was still very visible! The crank was broken on the throw for #7 and at first glance the block looked good....until I wiped the oil off it! (deja vu Robyn?)The main web on the same bearing was cracked on both sides under the outboard main bolts. Seems like a case for splayed caps when you see the cracks? I will try and post some pics at the bottom of this. Im not sure if the crank broke the block or the block was cracked for awhile thus allowing the crank to flex? Anyway I need a new block and there is a local guy nearby with seasoned machined blocks ready for a build. He will custom build whatever the customer requests, hence my questions earlier in this thread. He has main girdles in stock and Mahle 18:1 pistons.

I was hoping that there were some GM nodular cranks that were known to be more robust than others but if I understand correctly than all GM 6.5 TD cranks are mostly the same? I think I missed something while scanning this site regarding new enhanced blocks? I thought that the AM General block was not available for consumers, only GM dealers? There are some Asian sourced blocks in Alberta that are being pedelled as new "forged Crank high nickle content AM General products". It appears to be a scam as per some other members here.

Please excuse my nervousness about going back to a GM diesel but I was burned before...my 42,000 dollar new truck was sold off warranty for 5000 2 years after purchase with a broken crank. I am not rich and will usually have my three little boys on board as we travel. If I can buy a REAL new style long block with 18-1 pistons ,where can I get it and how much should I pay?

Well I'm not having any luck posting the pictures of my block cracks and broken crank. I would like you folks to see the damage so I am going to learn to attach pictures here and repost them. For now I will post this and hope that someone has some info on where I can purchase the best long block. Shipping to here will be expensive and time consuming so that will be another factor but I will certainly add it to my growing list of considerations while I make all these engine building decisions...

By the way, I am trying to search these pages as much as possible with my 3 kids tugging on my shirt sleeve to play ball and start there dirt bikes etc etc!! Perhaps you could just give me some previous thread links that would answer my boring newbie questions!

Thank-You Kindly

Rob

[More Power]

The general consensus is that heavy towing over time cause the failures.

Beg to differ. Our 6.5 Power Project has well over 200K on a 599, and saw more heavy towing than most 6.5's will ever see. Does 18:1 compression help? Does a competition balance of the rotating assy help? Does a DSG gear drive help? Talk to Denny Bradford about how his 1993 599 6.5 was/is being used regarding towing - now for more than 14 years. 21+K GCVWR.....

Semantics perhaps, but if the data supports it, it might be more appropriate to say broken blocks/cranks appear as a higher percentage among those 6.5 owners who contribute to bulletin boards and use their vehicles to tow. But not all - certainly, not all....

Also, we've said this many times here in the board that people will not hesitate to post a problem about their truck in a bulletin board, but the majority of the owners who have no issues are rarely heard from. This skews perceptions of reality, and needs to be considered. Just the other day I answered an email from a fellow who drives for DHL. His delivery truck is powered by a 6.5L diesel with more than 450,000 miles on the original engine. He was puzzled by comments made in bulletin boards about the unreliable nature of the 6.5. Just wish these guys would post their comments in a bulletin board. :(

Jim

[HH]

If I can buy a REAL new style long block with 18-1 pistons ,where can I get it and how much should I pay?


Rob


I bought my 18:1 long block from Peninsular Engine, http://www.peninsulardiesel.com/. I installed one in my 1993 K3500, stock pump and turbo. I plan to upgrade later. I have about 25,000 miles on it now. I would recommend their engines. They have been suppling the marine industry for many years.

[Robyn]

I personally think we all might be supprised if the real truth of these failures were known for sure.

I dont think there is a single root cause but instead a combination of events and conditions that take place to create just the right conditions for things to go south.

Just some observations

I agree with Jim that you usually never hear from those folks that have had zero issues.

Same can be said for those folks that never get sick, the doctor never sees them.

Robyn

[Robyn]

Rob

I seriously believe that there is a dynamic going on in these engines that is the major cause of the cracks and is just not presenting itself into full view.

I am just not in a position to have access to some sofisticated computer programs that could probe this anomaly and give a more difinitive answer.

Here is some of my own experiences

1994 599 block 6.5 TD 230K, lost head gasket so I pulled engine and did an overhaul.
Block fine, crank fine, pistons fine.
Just minor work and new bearings,rings gaskets and heads.

1994 599 6.2 W/ Banks turbo
Lost crank most likely due to low oil level that resulted from a hole burnt in a piston.

Crank wasted and the block had cracks on main webs 2 and 3 on both sides.

Several early 6.2 n/a engines down and rebuilt with no issues at all other than normal wear.

I just wish that we could come up with a narrow scope of conditions that seem to preceed a block and or crank failure on a regular basis.

Unfortunately many of the trucks that see failure are seeing it under ownership other than those who contributed the majority of the miles.

The abuse that so many vehicles see can be so subtle and not show up as far as the overall condition of the truck goes.

[kevin77]

One of the things that has to be taken into consideration is the maintenance, how they are driven, and what modifications have been done to them.

I ran mine 94' around last summer, didn't tow and ended up with a cracked head - I also had a stock exhaust, slack in the timing chain and a turbo that was blowing too much into a stock engine.

I can only blame myself for running the engine out of spec and not realizing the turbo was going and going and going.

Kevin

[robscarab]

The fact that most trouble free GM Diesel owners dont search and post on these forums is quite valid! I was the victim of weak injection pumps and poor maintenance practices, less than perfect fuel, severe weather etc. I was the GM of a Contracting Company during the 90's and being a lifelong Chevy guy I chose to equip our employees with 3/4 ton TD chevs. We had about 8 to 12 at any given time and they were driven by many different drivers. Mine was the only one that was maintained properly although it was filled with bad fuel on several occasions. It failed as often as the others and the weather here didnt help. They would idle for weeks during our peak season in the wilderness of Northern Alberta. Temps were often -35 to -45. Needless to say my Ford owning partner was less than pleased with my selection of crew trucks! (I dont work there any more LOL!)

Fast Forward to this project- with all the knowledge gained since the 6.5 was released I hope I will be posting here in 5 years...bragging about my ultra high mileage TD!

I would love to purchase a Penninsular engine but my location and time constraints make it difficult. I just read about the 6.5 power project...wow, now thats what Im talking about! I think I will try and duplicate that engine with a good 599 block and maintain it religeously. I am going to purchase the volumes about the TD power project immediately. I have purchased a membership here already but it appears that this document is only available by mail in hard copy? Does anyone know if it can be purchased online by visa or paypal etc.?

I have 6500 budgeted so far (6000 USD.). Am I dreaming ? Assuming my GM3 turbo and DB2 pump are good (they appear to have been rebuilt) How much will it cost to duplicate the PP engine?

The track record of the 6.5 PP is all I need to abandon any foolish Big Block fantasies I was having!! Please Let me know if the volume about the 6.5 PP is available online anywhere. I am anxious to get going!

In the mean time ,will it be safe to assume that a polished uncut crank core and stock resized rods and Clevite bearings could be sent to the engine balancer along with some Mahle 18:1pistons. Can anyone recommend a specific brand of rings for this build as well as a harmonic balancer (stock or aftermarket) or should I just wait until I get the darn book before starting on this?

Hope y'all arn't getting too anoyed by my endless questions here...I will return the favour by documenting my experience with this project...if I can ever figure out how to post pictures here! Any tips on that?:o

Cheers,

Rob

[robertb6963]

Sounds like a great looking truck!

Could you post some pics?

[robscarab]

Ill try to post some pics Robert G but its 2 am here and I just finished a proposal for work! Is that your rig in your sig Robert? It looks like a serious off roader from that angle!
I still havn't figured out how to post pics but will figure it out tomorrow hopefully... This truck only cost me 2500 so it likely won't be as nice as most other trucks here but I am thrilled to get such a solid project foundation for so little cash! (I have a bad habit of buying high and selling low when it comes to vehicles!!) It's funny since I have other much more expensive toys that I have never written about or posted pictures of! There is something exciting about finding a great deal and planning and building it yourself...without going to the bank and borrowing money for 3 or more years! I bought a "rare" SRT 8 300C last year (first one in Alberta supposably) and lately have seen these "limited production" cars now selling used for 20,000 less than (the bank) and I paid for it! When I bought it, they were selling for 10,000 over list in some areas.... Unfourtunetly I have now become used to 5 second 0 to 60 accelleration and modding my 6.5 TD will be mandatory... 600+ ft lbs and the spooling turbo whine should help resolve this problem though!

As I progress with this project I will post photos and performance figures as it moves forward. After it is repowered and running well I intend to install an Airride Technologies HD 4 link rear suspension and HD Coolride front system. A good friend built a 72 Olds Cutlass Supreme (442 clone) 2 years ago with the Air ride Technologies system and the ride and handling was incredible. I think this rough riding dually will be a great candidate for this system and I will write a complete assesment of the ride and handling improvements and any glitches along the way. (providing the members here don't have any previous bad experiances with this system.) I am going to order the self leveling compessor kit as well.The best thing about this whole deal is that I can spend a fair amount of cash on customizing this thing and the outcome should be a fantastic towing rig costing far less than a new one. Personally I prefer the styling of these trucks compared to the new ones. By the way, has anyone here installed a four link air suspension? I can't seem to find any unbiased reports regarding the ride improvements and load carrying ability of this particular kit?

One final thought/question tonight...

Has anyone ever had crank or block trouble after a performance balance job has been done on their rebuilt GM diesel? Roughly how many folks here spring for the dynamic balancing before assembling their shortblock? I was told by a local expert on these engines that balancing was not that important on these low rpm engines. (I quietly disagree but he has a good rep as far as I know). My thoughts are if your going to spend big money on building a TD why not another 350 to have it properly balanced ? For those whom have balanced their RA, do you recall how much it was out of balance before adding the weights? As a gas engine building hobbiest I have always balanced my performance build ups, and will be doing this one as well. Is there a trick to getting these engines correctly balanced ? I was planning on sending this one to the guys that normally balance my BBC's. They are well known here and trusted by pro stock drag racers ,but perhaps I should be looking for a shop that specializes in diesel engine building for the balancing procedure?

Cheers,

Rob

[MaxPF]

Beg to differ. Our 6.5 Power Project has well over 200K on a 599, and saw more heavy towing than most 6.5's will ever see. Does 18:1 compression help? Does a competition balance of the rotating assy help? Does a DSG gear drive help? Talk to Denny Bradford about how his 1993 599 6.5 was/is being used regarding towing - now for more than 14 years. 21+K GCVWR.....

Semantics perhaps, but if the data supports it, it might be more appropriate to say broken blocks/cranks appear as a higher percentage among those 6.5 owners who contribute to bulletin boards and use their vehicles to tow. But not all - certainly, not all....

Also, we've said this many times here in the board that people will not hesitate to post a problem about their truck in a bulletin board, but the majority of the owners who have no issues are rarely heard from. This skews perceptions of reality, and needs to be considered. Just the other day I answered an email from a fellow who drives for DHL. His delivery truck is powered by a 6.5L diesel with more than 450,000 miles on the original engine. He was puzzled by comments made in bulletin boards about the unreliable nature of the 6.5. Just wish these guys would post their comments in a bulletin board. :(

Jim


http://defiant.blogdns.com:5002/emoticons/yup.gif

[Robyn]

Take the IP and glow plugs off yer mind and all the tech for these engines is the same.

If you trust the shop to do your rat motors they will do fine with your diesel.

Ballancing does not care one little bit about what the little beastie feeds on.

Have fun and keep us up to date on yer project.

best

Robyn

[Robyn]

I agree with Jim in the idea that we only hear about the ones that broke.
Nobody bothers to go to a bulletin board to crow about their truck that runs good and never gives trouble.

It still would be a grand closure to realy know what is causing the failures.

later

Robyn

[robscarab]

Yes, absolutely , The more I read here, the more I become perplexed as to why these things break. I'd love to know if the balanced R/A's are snapping and cracking blocks at the same rate as unbalanced deals. When I get mine done next week I'll let ya know how much it was off. Bad or mismatched injectors causing cylinder imbalance? I think I will get mine blueprinted just to eliminate that theory. The Power Project TD, wow, all those miles, 300+ hp, non stop heavy towing...I cant wait to get the book on that build-up. I see it has splayed mains... Check out the pictures of the cracks in my block...both sides below the outboard main bolts. I hope these pictures are clear enough after compressing them....

Rob

[ronniejoe]

The TDP project truck does not have splayed mains. Mine does. Jim's series of articles is in the 6.5 Book I and inspired me to do my project. My series of articles is in the 6.5 Book II. You can also go here for more information: http://www.thedieselpage.com/newprod.htm (scroll down) or here: www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com (http://www.schoolcraftpowertrain.com).

[More Power]

It still would be a grand closure to realy know what is causing the failures.

I think there are many causes, none the least of which is a design problem with the GM piston oil spray blocks (1996-2000). These have cracked in droves. The primary reason AMG gave the casting work to International was this specific block cracking problem.

Why do non-spray blocks crack? At the heart, I believe the problem is still that of design. But, several other issues creep into the picture that could help to explain why some engines live hard working lives for hundreds of K's of miles without cracking and others don't. Bad/defective harmonic dampers, or crank pulleys, or flexplates, or flywheels "could" all contribute. I've seen too many combinations of failed dampers/pulleys and broken engines to not see some sort of connection.

The 599 trucks that were equipped with a manual transmission also got the funky dual-mass flywheel, which, when it failed, allowed the weighty 2-piece unit to hammer together if it failed. Check any broken 599 to see if it has/had a pilot shaft bearing in the end of the crankshaft.

FluidDampr should have their 6.5L viscous damper available by now. They were close to introduction at last fall's SEMA. This might be a durability/reliability improvement for the 6.5 - and one that doesn't wear out or deteriorate over time. While talking to the FD guy at SEMA, he told me the stock Dodge Cummins damper only lasts a short time when the Cummins makes big power. They had one there at their booth to show what happens when they fail. The FD damper reportedly solves that problem, and allows the engine to produce a few more HP in the process. :)

Jim

[robscarab]

Jim,

I have been thinking about the fluid damper route for my build as well. I read an interveiw recently of a Nextel Cup engine builder whom surprisingly discarded any benefit the viscous damper has to offer. I was perplexed by this opinion since the Car mags often use them in their high horsepower build-up articles. The guy went on to say that their testing found the fluid dampers were detrimental to crankshaft longevity during acceleration and deceleration as well as not doing as good a job as the conventional style they were using? I wish I could find the article again and submit it to the FD people for them to provide a counter argument against those comments on their product. The fact is that very few people have the equipment to do the testing necessary to separate fact from fiction. I for one would love to see an independent test of the different types of dampers on the market.

Is there any way to determine if a used 6.5 damper is reuseable or not? Mine doesnt have any cracks in the rubber but I am pondering getting the FD if it is now available or perhaps someone here could recommend a better than stock design/manufacturer?

By the way the comment above is purely one mans opinion and I dont even remember whom he was. I was just very surprised that a big league engine builder would dismiss such a popular and well known product??? Anyone else ever hear anything negative about the fluid dampers?

Rob

[More Power]

From what I've read, the advantage of an FD damper over stock "in a diesel application" is a given - when used in a competition setting. At least this is what I came away with after learning more about the FD damper. Diesel and gas engines operate quite differently to one another with regard to crank damper action. The individual cylinder torque impulses are more pronounced in a diesel (higher compression, longer stroke, lower rpm, higher mass, etc.). Ad hype can be hard to sort through sometimes.

Look for a uniformity of the rubber layer between the hub and the outer ring. Bad dampers I've seen had missing chunks of rubber, or the rubber was sucked-in in one area and pushed out in another. If yours is perfectly uniform and isn't missing any pieces, it's likely alright.

Jim

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

"This truck only cost me $2500C..." It definitely got around to being your turn - what a deal! :eek:

"...there is a local guy nearby with seasoned machined blocks ready for a build." Whatever you do, at least talk to RJ. I think he's onto something with the splayed mains he does. If you're gonna build yourself, maybe your builder can duplicate this effort, or send the block to RJ & have him do it, whatever. I'd never build a 6.5 to tow without splayed mains myself. (The only legitimate source of new 6.5 blocks appears to be long blocks from Peninsular [& maybe others?]. They don't do splayed mains. With the changes made in the latest/greatest blocks, this may be acceptable. I still wouldn't build on an older block without splayed mains - the stud girdle option does not seem adequate to this admittedly underinformed mind.)

To power-up a 6.5, in about this order (corrections requested as needed):

- big exhaust
- gauges (EGT & boost, minimum)
- intercooler
- turn up the boost & fuel to suit, monitoring gauges

(on edit) Balancing? I know nothing, except that all my 6.2/6.5s vibrate to some degree, most enough that it's noticeable in the outside mirrors. The only vibration I can find in RJ's Sub is to touch the engine itself - that sucker idles REAL SMOOTH. That can't be bad, eh? ;)

Keep us posted - all the best &...

Blessings!

[TAG]

I wonder about the number of crank & block failures in non electronic vs electronic engines. I know that the intermittant hesitation while driving on the highway with a failing fsd or fuel solenoid cannot be good for the block or crank. Combine this with injectors that might not be up to snuff, some cylinders overfueling, some underfueling , might be a connection. Another thing that bothers me is darn near every electronic 6.5 has had the intake off at least once & most multiple times. A lot of this work was done at dealerships under warranty where the tech was trying in vain to make money. How much sand & crud was dropped down the intake ports during all of these jobs? I have a repair garage & work on a few of the 6.5 engines. I have noticed a trend when i come across an extremely high mileage 6.5 that it most generally has had no problems its entire life and has never been to the dealer. some have even had the original injection pump on them in the mid 200,000 mile area. These are the ones that the owner is always puzzled when i suggest preventitive work as they have never had a problem & assume that is how all diesels are & thats why they bought one. These are the same people that tow heavy all the time, change their oil when they get around to it, & generally have other things on their mind other than maintenance on their truck. Sorry about the rambling post but i believe there is something to this.