Truck Down

[CareyWeber]

Well at 213K miles my truck quit while my wife was driving it. :o

She said it started pouring out black smoke then died.

When trying to restart it would starts few times, but when it did it rev'd up sporadically with out touching the throttle for a a few seconds and then quit running again.

It cranks fine all battery cables are tight and the batteries are about 6 months old.

I have not tried to get the codes read it just happened and towing it with my little diesel Scout with the wife steering it with no power. I was not going try pulling across traffic to get it into Autozone.

Could it be the fuel shut off?

The pump on the truck has about 120K miles on it. The FSD/PMD is mounted on the pump?

1997 GMC K3500 6.5TD CC SRW 4L80E.

Carey

[JohnC]

Sounds like the fuel solenoid is stuck or the PMD is shorted. The black smoke is from over fueling. The stall is the PCM trying to keep it from running away.

[CareyWeber]

Sounds like the fuel solenoid is stuck or the PMD is shorted. The black smoke is from over fueling. The stall is the PCM trying to keep it from running away.

John by fuel solenoid do you mean the fuel shut off solenoid (vertical cylinder on the pump)?

I have a spare, but it takes an allen wrench where the one on my truck takes about a 24 or 15 mm wrench to remove it. Both have the same two wire connector.

If its the PMD then I'll have to buy a remote mount kit for it.

Carey

[CareyWeber]

I just checked my Racor filter before my lift pump and it had no water in it.

Carey

[Robyn]

The reving up thing leads me to believe the PMD is gunnisack.

(Black box on drivers side of IP)

Check for codes and if none unplug the PMD and fish the plug and wiring up out of the hole and try a known good PMD.
If it runs shut it off and mount the PMD on a cooler down on insdie oif the front cover plate behind the bumper and get an extension cord for the PMD.

I have personally seen a Bad PMD do this

Good luck

Robyn

[CareyWeber]

The reving up thing leads me to believe the PMD is gunnisack.

(Black box on drivers side of IP)

Check for codes and if none unplug the PMD and fish the plug and wiring up out of the hole and try a known good PMD.
If it runs shut it off and mount the PMD on a cooler down on insdie oif the front cover plate behind the bumper and get an extension cord for the PMD.

I have personally seen a Bad PMD do this

Good luck

Robyn

Well I was hoping that after cooling off all night it might start, but still no start or even trying to start this morning.

Carey

[CareyWeber]

Well I'm finally getting some time to trouble shoot this.

I found my lift pump was bad and replaced it and it is working when the key is on.

I pulled the oil fill tube and yes the upper gear is turning (chain is the oridginal one).

I checked the ESO (Fuel shutoff solenoid)it was not getting 12v found the fuse for it burnt and replaced it. I can feel the ESO activating now.

I cracked the 2 fuel lines while cranking, but I did not get any fuel spraying out.

Engine cranks normally and it has 7 new glow plugs. While cranking it makes no attempt to start.

The only code is P0236 and that won't keep it from starting.

Carey

[CareyWeber]

I also installed a new fuel filter and primed (I have a switch to operate the lift-pump under the hood) it and got fuel out the bleeder.

The airfilter is clean enough.

Carey

[rameye]

are you getting fuel to the injectors??? crack all of them on the drivers side, pull the glow plug fuse and let r rip till fuel comes out.

[CareyWeber]

are you getting fuel to the injectors??? crack all of them on the drivers side, pull the glow plug fuse and let r rip till fuel comes out.

I cracked the first 2 on the drivers side, but no fuel.

I'll try cracking them all and see if I get some.

Thanks

Carey

[tommac95]

>>I found my lift pump was bad and replaced it and it is working when the key is on.
I checked the ESO (Fuel shutoff solenoid)it was not getting 12v found the fuse for it burnt and replaced it.

I guess the LP died and took down the ESO fuse??
Now did the FSD/PMD also crap out? There have been such incidences [the 'simultaneous/coincidental LP + FSD syndrome'].

And you've checked the engine harness ground on/by transmission dipstick just for , well , process elimination?

With + LP pressure and an open ESO the FIP should prime within , say 1-2 minutes cranking ???(dunno).

Pretty near time to try FSD.......then /FIP/PCM....NO! Scan First!

Good luck!

[CareyWeber]

I have a couple PMD's could I just plug them in, but not mount them to test to see if it will start.

If it does start then I could buy a PMC cooler and extension and remote mount the PMD.

Carey

[Robyn]

You can do that for a short test. Dont run it long if its starts though.
few seconds will tell the story.

Let us know

Robyn

[CareyWeber]

Well no joy.......

I plugged in one of my spare PMD's, but still no start.

However I did get a tiny bit of fuel to the injectors on the drivers side. I checked the lift pump PSI it's 9 psi with the key on or the bleeder switch and it is 5 psi while cranking.

My glow plugs are working plus it's above 90

[rameye]

You should be getting enough fuel to those injectors to drip on the ground. Mine refused to start until I really had weeped quite a bit of fuel from the lines.

Any chance you clogged the injectors??

5 of mine were blocked and it barely started...

While you're cranking it over mash the pedal it was the only way mine started with the crap injectors. Woth a try...cant make it not start any more.

Whats coming out the exhaust as you crank it over?? Anything??

Keep at it

[CareyWeber]

You should be getting enough fuel to those injectors to drip on the ground. Mine refused to start until I really had weeped quite a bit of fuel from the lines.

Any chance you clogged the injectors??

5 of mine were blocked and it barely started...

While you're cranking it over mash the pedal it was the only way mine started with the crap injectors. Woth a try...cant make it not start any more.

Whats coming out the exhaust as you crank it over?? Anything??

Keep at it

I pulled the line all the way off the first on on the drivers side and cranked it, but no fuel came out.

I get some fuel that looks promising from the last two on the drivers side.

Exhaust nothing it's not even trying to fire, but you got to have fuel first.

Carey

[CareyWeber]

Well I tried PMD #3 - no change

I tried my spare ESO (fuel Shutoff solenoid) - no change

Tried unhooking all battery cables and reinstalling them - no change

Carey

[gmctd]

Initial symptom indicates possibility of DS4 FS failure, but check to see if the cam key has sheared - would give black smoke as drive gear retarded, and would prevent injection, depending on degree of retard.

ESO and FSD power supplied by FSOL\ECM-1 fuse, LP on seperate circuit

[rameye]

it seems very odd that you find the lift pump DOA and the shut-off solenoid DOA....getting no fuel.....cam gear rotating, still no fuel.

sounds like the event was a catastrophic failure.

It almost sounds like an electrical failure with blown fuses and a bad lift pump..very odd

is this the original pump?? maybe it grenaded.

total guesses here at his point.

a pump swap is a total bummer , hate to see you fork over 1200 bucks and mucho labor with the same end result...I'd hold off..maybe start verifying components one at a time. verify circuitry to pump is OK...ECM is in good health etc.

maybe th elack of an operating lift pump helped grenade the IP.

hmmmm not good

[CareyWeber]

it seems very odd that you find the lift pump DOA and the shut-off solenoid DOA....getting no fuel.....cam gear rotating, still no fuel.

sounds like the event was a catastrophic failure.

It almost sounds like an electrical failure with blown fuses and a bad lift pump..very odd

is this the original pump?? maybe it grenaded.

total guesses here at his point.

a pump swap is a total bummer , hate to see you fork over 1200 bucks and mucho labor with the same end result...I'd hold off..maybe start verifying components one at a time. verify circuitry to pump is OK...ECM is in good health etc.

maybe th elack of an operating lift pump helped grenade the IP.

hmmmm not good

The pump was a new warranty install buy GM at about 90K miles so it has about 123K miles on it.

I'm thinking I'll pop the top of the injection pump / Optical sensor to see if the pump is rotating.

I don't have a issue with replacing the pump if I know that is whats wrong.

Carey

[tommac95]

Not much help from here.

It IS said to be the case that a dead LP promotes extra wear on FIP.
I did experience a dead mechanical FIP on old VW ... occurred in hot weather when/after the engine had been running smooth as silk (for a mechanical diesel) , and then it couldn't handle a 'cold start' in hot weather.

The ESO is clicking 'on' , yes?

I have experienced stall/no-start from blocked/clogged return line from FIP, maybe quickly pull off the return and observe what happens at injector while cranking.

Trans dipstick harness ground didn't loosen up ...?...

PCM may have suffered in the heat ...

Is possible for FIP to fail with no DTCs?? {seems intolerably crude, although i suppose the code might be redundant}.

Ram >>While you're cranking it over mash the pedal it was the only way mine started with the crap injectors.
Agreed , helps when Optical Sensor blinded by dirty motor oil...

Ram>> mentioned catastrophic electrical demise
Prompted my suggestion of possible PCM failure.

It might pay to wiggle harness connectors , maybe reseat the multiple pin connectors at the PCM, but i've no recollection of such a problem .

* * *
Carey-
DO YOU HAVE a copy of the Helm Elect/Emissions volume? It does have lots of good info (also lots disorder) , and very good troubleshooting charts??

[beast]

i just went thru all of the same things with mine and couldnt find anything that helped so i checked compression and found numbers 2 and 3 were 100lbs less than all the others. i had 350 average and 220 on those 2. i still dont know for shure what is wrong but its a good bet i need a new engine. hope thats not what you find but would be a good idea to check that if you havent allready. wish i had started there to begin with. would have saved alot of time and trouble. good luck!

[rameye]

Carey..

The last thing I would try before going back to the way basics is to check for air exiting either the pump or the injector return lines...I think you can have good pump pressures and have air continuosly being introduced into the system..

If all things prior check out...then its time to haul out the injectors...have them tested...and go for compression. All we need here is fuel delivered at some resonable point in the cycle and compression and we are a go!

The lack of anything noticeable in the exhaust points directly at no fuel...not being fuel delivered at the wrong time. This being said I would have to look at compression in order to rule out anything major....then really look at the possible minors.

Have you actually done a flow test with the fuel pump/filter assembly?? Fill up a gallon jug off the water drain...how fast??? It should be pretty quick.

Verify compression...good enough??

Verify injector delivery...pattern/pressure??

While the injectors are out...watch the glow plugs...do they shine bright??

Does fuel flow out of the open lines when you crank it??

Helpful hint: Make sure to take the turbo supply line put it into a funnel and back into the turbo drain when cranking. What a damn mess in my driveway!

Stay at it..

[CareyWeber]

Well today checked every fuse and connection that I could get loose to include all three on the ECU. The ground by the trany dipstick might have been iffy so I redid it new ends and the stupid bolt in the frame striped.

At times I'd love to get an Engineer in a small room and get him a good old whuppin.

Well all of that and no change I get a tiny bit of fuel from #5, but none from 1 and 3 period.

I guess I'm going to start pulling the water pump either tomorrow or Monday. Once its off I'll look at the timing chain and the key per JD.

Carey

[rameye]

I was able to get my timing chain cover off while leaving the pump in place....will save you some major time if you're just checking..did not add any real degree of difficulty.

did you try compression or pattern check yet??

hate to see you rip it down for something simple..

thats what i did...tore the whole front of the engine off looking for a similar problem....duh bad injectors...(they were 1 year old, not rebuilds, loaded with crud)

$2500 and 6 months later I checked the basics and found the culprit...soooo stupid! :(

[CareyWeber]

I was able to get my timing chain cover off while leaving the pump in place....will save you some major time if you're just checking..did not add any real degree of difficulty.

did you try compression or pattern check yet??

hate to see you rip it down for something simple..

thats what i did...tore the whole front of the engine off looking for a similar problem....duh bad injectors...(they were 1 year old, not rebuilds, loaded with crud)

$2500 and 6 months later I checked the basics and found the culprit...soooo stupid! :(

I'm not getting fuel to the injectors, about the only other thing I can think of is maybe the crank position sensor (CPS).

Carey

[rameye]

how bout air entering the system??

would explain alot!

[CareyWeber]

how bout air entering the system??

would explain alot!

Well I thought I'd posted the lift pump psi # before, but I don't see them. :confused:

I had 4 psi while cranking (steady) and 9 psi with key in the on position (steady). With psi reading that high and steady I don't think I'm getting air and when it died it poured out black smoke per my wife who was driving at the time.

[rameye]

OK ...just asked because air will do alot of things you're talking about..

you can have pressure and air in the system.

looking grim like an IP if everything checks out.

[tommac95]

>it would starts few times, but when it did it rev'd up sporadically with out touching the throttle for a few seconds and then quit running again.

This consistent with reports of FIP failure; John C seems have good description of blow-by-blow.

If not too late , i will again suggest to crank with the FIP return line disconnected , to make sure that the FIP primary chamber has thoroughly 'primed'. It would be nice if the LP would pump a decent flow through the FIP when the FIP was not rotating, but as near as i can tell , it does not. That is , you have determined that there is NO output from the high pressure pipes ; that is to say that the fuel output solenoid driven by the FSD/PMD is not producing. If/when you demonstrate that the return {low pressure} line IS passing normal fuel quantity , then you have better confidence that the problem is the FIP [rather than an un-primed primary bowl]. The mileage is about the reported life cycle of a pump. The black smoke deal is similar to symptoms of FSD/PMD failing, though. There's some chance that sometimes a worn pump doesn't prime too quickly. If no good prime then partial high-pressure would seem reasonable.

That said , a new pump may well be in order.
Good Luck.

[CareyWeber]

JD,

I do not have a timing pointer on my my 6.5TD.

Looking at the crank I have the injection pump gear timing mark @ 6:00 and the cam gear timing mark at 12:00 and the grove on the crank pulley is closer to 3:00 than 2:00 (almost in the position of the crank position sensor CPS).

Does that sound like the key is sheared?

See pics for more details.

Carey

[CareyWeber]

Well I don't think the key is sheared especially if it's that round pin I was thinking of a woodruff key.

The round pin is intact.

My injection pump turns really easy though much easier than the old junker pump I have.

Carey

[rameye]

Unfortunately that big washer on the cam gear is preventing you from seeing if the cam gear key is intact. Mine was stripped...but I caused it by dropping a washer on the timing chain and barring it over!

I dont think you can sneak the bolt out without the timing cover coming off.

I dont know what you have for mileage, but I might consider pulling the balancer, inspecting, and putting on a new chain. Mine was completely shot...flapping around. Pulled the chain off by just removing the cam gear!

Comes apart quick and easy..seeing you already did the hard work.

[CareyWeber]

Well I dodged the lighting tonight and got the a look at the cam gear key and it's not sheared. :mad:

I had to pull the whole timing cover off to do it.

I'm amazed that I only have about 1/2" or so (no I didn't measure it) of play in my timing chain.

I guess the next step is replacing the Injection Pump.

Does the crank position sensor CPS need to be replaced?

Carey

[rameye]

1/2 inch sounds like the upper limit of chain play... (if so) I would run out and put a chain on...take you 1/2 hour on and off.

make sure to loctite the cam bolt before putting to sleep..

I considered the crank sensor when chasing my demon....I figured if I do everything and it doesnt work I would change the sensor. It looked easy to get to if need be.

Eyeball the balancer too...mine looked fine.

[CareyWeber]

1/2 inch sounds like the upper limit of chain play... (if so) I would run out and put a chain on...take you 1/2 hour on and off.

make sure to loctite the cam bolt before putting to sleep..

I considered the crank sensor when chasing my demon....I figured if I do everything and it doesnt work I would change the sensor. It looked easy to get to if need be.

Eyeball the balancer too...mine looked fine.

The CPS looks to be a bear to get to on my 97 with AC.

I plan on doing the CPS, Chain, Balancer, crank pulley, water pump and the vacuum pump along with the injection pump.

Who's got the best deal on injection pumps?

Carey

[Warren96]

If you have gone this far spring for a chain,you will be glad you did!

[CareyWeber]

If you have gone this far spring for a chain,you will be glad you did!

oops that is on the list too :o

Carey

[tommac95]

re CPS-
If you do not decide to renew it , DO take the time to remove/replace it , and reinstall with clean/lubed threads on fastening , and same treatment on sensor shank {i did, for easy dismantling when necessary. It was a little bit stuck}.

I'd try Gomer's , and Rock , for starters.

[rameye]

Who's got the best deal on injection pumps?

Carey

I would call around a bit....definitely use a supporting vendor. I used US Diesel parts for the pump. They gave me some terriffic support when I was having a stupid attack! ;) The price was right. The diff between new and rebuilt at the time was $300 My new pump failed in just over 1 year..so maybe a professional rebuild for me next time.

Kennedy has never done me wrong either, he'll back up his sales.

Get your best price and pull the trigger.

BTW without question, order a new set of the quick connect injector return lines...no little clips to make you insane! Also order the injection pump install gasket set too (intake, pump flange...etc)

Keep us in the loop.

[CareyWeber]

I had surgery on my left ear Friday, so I can't work on it, but I am looking at prices. Kennedy (who has been great in the past for me) seems to have a good price on new injection pumps.

Thanks for the info on the CPS.

Carey

[CareyWeber]

Well I've been trying to get my truck running, but no joy yet.

I've replaced the timing chain set, harmonic balancer, crank pulley, water pump, starter and the PMD (Heath Diesel version).

It cranks great, but does not fire or attemp to fire and I get no fuel when cranking (checked by cracking/lossening an injector line).

I've tried with the Crank posistion sensor unplugged and plugged and still no fire just lots of cranking.

Anyone have any suggestions other than the injection pump? My DS4 has about 120K miles on since the deal warrented it back in 2001.

Carey

[ToddMeister]

Is there fuel at the injector pump supply port?

[CareyWeber]

Is there fuel at the injector pump supply port?

Todd, yes I do. I just checked it because I've just been check at the filter bleed and the filter drain.

I tried to check via the return port/hose first, but I did not get fuel there, but the key was off.

Carey

[CareyWeber]

Well I called Bill Heath and asked how to test the pump and this how he said to do it.

Test Pump on 6.5TD 1997

Pump side of PMD connector terminals are marked A - F.

Digital Voltmeter red probe on A and black probe to ground should be at least 1.2V (1.8V) when cranking after 5 revolutions.

Test Light
Probe to "C" and clip to positive (light should come on)

Clip to neg terminal and probe to "D" with key in the on position (light should come on)

If all of the above are true the pump is bad.

So I'll be a testing.

Carey

[ttpost]

Mine did something similar, the ground to the fuel shut off solenoid was bad, it tested ok with an ohm meter but i re grounded it and it fired right off. might wan to try it it only takes a couple of seconds to splice and and hook up an aligator clip. i was getting 0 fuel to my injectors. hope this helps rob

[Bnave95]

Well CW
I sure feel for you with all the work you have done. BUT have you R&R CPS?
I had the run away in 99. Lots of diesel clater but the CPS didn't just die cause a lot of issue's. Replaced CPS and all is well. Not often do they fail,But.

[76m880]

did you do a compression check on the engine?

[CareyWeber]

Well I installed a brand new pump and it runs great. My setup now is the Heath Diesel PMD and a new pump. I did not have it timed I just scribbed a line and set the pump back to that. I got finished with it Friday and towed two horses to a local show on Saturday and it ran great.

I found that my stock fuel filter heater was leaking so I replaced the heater and I moved the filter from the back to the drivers side of the radiator shroud which will make fuel filter replacement much less of a pain.

Carey

[rameye]

hey that only took a year!!!

not bad sounds like one of my jobs!

[CareyWeber]

hey that only took a year!!!

not bad sounds like one of my jobs!

I tried and tried to avoid the pump replacement, but in the end it was the whole issue. :(