Water mist injection cooling Experence

[GARY PAGE]

Water mist injection cooling
Heath Diesel is selling the water mist cooling system and indicates it equivalent to or possible better that the inter cooler system at

[ucdavis]

I was gunna try this next spring- put a coupla mist jets around my new intake/filter & see what happens. Gotta install the intake first, so the mist project won't happen for 'bout 6 mos.
If anybody else has prior experience....?

[More Power]

I corresponded with Bill earlier today about the water injection article I have about 2/3 written. I need a few photo captions - that's all, and it's ready to go. (I didn't take quite good enough notes about the various piecy parts).

He said he'd get right on it.

MP

[Kidd]

In the mid 70's I cobbled up a homemade water injection system for a high output 350.. I used a pump and tank from a windshield washer system.
When pulling hard up hills I would just hit a button for the water injection. You could really feel the difference, also controlled the detonation under extreme pulls, this engine was 12 to 1 compression. Wish I still had the outfit, it could outpull anything on the road today. It would easily pull 41k up a 6% grade in high gear at 60 mph.

Water should work just as well in a diesel, my 6.5 has much more power when running through a heavy rain.

K.D. smile.gif

[StephenA]

I've been waiting for news on Bill's mister too, so it's good news that it's on the way. Anyone have any experience with misting nozzles clogging? Is ditilled water a must, or will a filter handle tap water from regular gas stations? Is methanol added only in winter, or does it add to the power boost? Is it true that if used to replace an intercooler, that full time operation uses about as much water as diesel fuel? Does it increase fuel mpg's?

[jimalove]

I made my own water-injection system.Been running it for two years.I tow a 11,000# Jayco 5th wheel.I could not believe the power increase.On my first trip I ran out of water going up a steep grade and it felt like I had thrown out an anchor.The system consist of 40 psi pump,15gal tank,.25 gpm nozzle,zero deadband pressure sw,40 amp rely and LED.I'm going to test some nozzles next summer.I can run about 400 miles on 15 gals of distilled water.

Jim

1993 6.5 TD C3500 13# Boost,3in Jardine,K&N,Dual-Idle,Boost,Pyro,Trans Gauges.83,000 Pampered Miles

[gymcarm]

According to http://www.artisanind.com/jetvac/chillerpoo.htm, it takes 1060 BTU to vaporize 1 pound of water under a vacuum. I have read in refrigeration text books that it takes something like 970 BTU to vaporize 1 pound at atmospheric pressure.

At this post... http://forum.thedieselpage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004715 it has been speculated that we need about 85,000 BTU per hour for an intercooler. Of course, that would vary according to the load.

It seems that you would use 85 lbs. of water per hour...Sounds like a lot of water to me. If I am off base, please correct me.

I know that an added benefit is the expansion rate of water. One pound of water makes over 400 cubic feet of vapor. That is one big reason the military used it in aircraft. Not only the old recips, but also the turbo-jets on bombers and tankers.

Just thinking out loud. I am interested in this subject and feel like I know just enough to be dangerous...

[jimalove]

The system only operates for about 20 seconds on average,when the boost is above 11psi and that comes out to about 10 oz's of water or 1 oz per 2 sec


Jim

[StephenA]

Jim - That's a helluva great mister application you've dreamed up! The application at 11 psi sounds interesting. I was hoping that misting at low psi levels would give me some power below 1700 RPM... is this possible, or does it not work unless 11psi or grater is present?

gymcarm - those are some great figures & references, thanks!

Anyone- does the high temps achieved in the plenum insure that all the water is vaporized before it enters the cylinder, or is nozzel size super important? Don't want to blow my heads off with water in the cylinder head!
Also, how much is Bill asking for his mister? Last I checked (months ago), it wasn't on his website yet.

[StephenA]

Found this on Bill Heath's website:
http://www.turbo-master.com/?page=prodinfo&id=412


The CHARGE-COOLER is unmatched in inter-cooling performance. It provides a vastly superior performance gain over any air-to-air system available for the perfromance enhanced 6.5 truck or Sub. Using intake air-temperature gauges for accurate mesurement and comparison, these systems typically generate a temperature decrease of 200*in the more powerful 6.5. When operating the 6.5 turbo at 12-14 psi boost, ouput temperature will range 300-320*. The CHARGE-COOLER system will drop this temp to the 105-120* range. Key factors contributing to the phenominal increase in torque are; the cooled intake charge which allows a greater volume of oxygen to be packed into the cylinders as well as the action of the water which is involved in the combustion process itself. During combustion, the water is transformed into a super-heated steam, increasing the volume of the trapped combustion gasses, lengthening the duration of the power stroke.
In addtion to major gains in power and torque, the cooling benefits of the intake charge on upper engine temperature result in a substantially lessened burden on the vehicle cooling system.
Important benefits include:
Greatly increased pulling power. Most applications realize a 50-70 hp / 90-145 lb ft torque gain.
Lowered EGT. Most applications enjoy a 100* lower EGT at a given output, or better stated, there is greater power at the EGT limit.
Reduced burden on cooling system; blowing 100-120* intake air into the top of the 210* engine has a positive affect on heat rejection into the cooling system---the rig runs hills cooler with CHARGE-COOLER! The system is complete with every part needed to make the installation a success and we are always available to answer any questions by phone. 877 894 6266

PRICE: $419
Includes shipping cont usa


cool! :cool:

[jimalove]

Stephan A

The switch is adjustable.I don't have Web Address,but will find and get info to you.

Jim

[StephenA]

Great Jim- I think I'd like to build one like yours... Could you email me the parts list?

[StephenA]

Check out this water pump, made for charge coolers as well as pumping engine coolant after shut off:

http://www.mawsolutions.com/documents/ebpinfo.PDF

ELECTRIC BOOSTER PUMP (EBP)

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATION
A high performance brushless motor, magnetic drive pump for heating/cooling, turbocharging
air/intercooler systems on cars, main engine pump on go-karts and motor bikes.
Operating Voltage:
9V DC - 15V DC
Maximum Current:
1.3A
Flowrate:
13.3L/min,
(175gal/hr)
at 10kPa
Operating
Temperature:
-40

[Cowracer]

GYMCARM-

85 lbs of water would be about 11 gallons. You are assuming that you would require 85000 btu for an hour straight. If you were pulling a load with your foot flat on the floor for an hour straight, 11 gallons would not seem excessive.

Tim

[gymcarm]

As I follow this topic, it seems that the water mist cooler is only a benefit during high load/high boost conditions. Is it of any benefit during part throttle cruising conditions?

A traditional intercooler is doing its thing under all conditions and you don't have to fill it up.

[StephenA]

I emailed Bill Heath about this thread and invited him to join in on this discussion; I hope he does. The EPB pump I posted above turns out to be $195, which is almost half what Bill charges for his complete system, which seems like it might be a good bargain, like his Turbo-Master, which is only $65.
I for one, really appreciate all of our vendors, who in addition to making or selling good products, contribute tons of good advice & experience. JK, Bill, Greg at Lube Specialists, Avant, all you guys- THANKS!

[StephenA]

Bill Heath wrote me back:

"Hello Stephen,
While I enjoy reading them, our work on new projects and ideas along with our growing on-line business has me pretty busy these days, so I just don't have time to visit the forums as often as I would like.
After years of working with these systems, I think it is safe to say that our approach to water injection inter-cooling is likely a little different from others. Due to the fact the concept is not widely understood, there are a number of old wives tales and other misconceptions about how these work.
A properly designed system will deliver an outstanding level of inter-cooling efficiency and one that is pretty tough to match any other way. Additionally, the injested moisture plays a role in the combustion process which increases the duration of the pressurization of the cylinder. The result is greater power than would be achieved by lowering the intake temperature alone. Water injection is a very cool way to go on the 6.5. We are scheduled on to a dual roller, load cell dyno week after next with our '95 2wd truck to do some pulls to confirm a few different things we are working on. Maybe we ought to do some water inj pulls, too. The water inj pulls we did in the past were done on Mustang and Dynojet setups which differ vastly from the very accurate results gathered on the two roller load cell setup.
Stephen, I will try visit the forum sometime next week to see if there is anything I might be able to contribute. Thanks for the 'heads-up'.

Best regards
Bill"

I know Bill's pretty swamped, but I look forward to his inclusuion on next week's threads on this subject, since he's mid testing. Hope other folks will join in too.

[JoeyD]

What will keep the water from freezing in the winter? I would end up with a block of ice if it was in the bed all winter.

[Kidd]

I used to put alcohol in my water system.. not sure the effect on a diesel though.

K.D.

[StephenA]

I've read of folks using methanol & alcohol. Adds to the combustion in addition to preventing freezing.

[rjschoolcraft]

As I've said before, in the aircraft engine industry, we have used water-alcohol injection to provide power boosts for short periods of time...namely on takeoff.

First, all of the comments about expansion of the water into steam and the alcohol aiding the combustion process are true, but you have to remember that the amounts need to be carefully metered to really be effective.

Second, remember that the water or water-alcohol mix is occupying space that could be occupied by air...so you have reduced the amount of oxygen available for burning fuel.

Third, temperature and flow measurements of two-phase flow are not always accurate. The state-of-the-art in engineering science for two-phase flow is barely above black magic at the moment. Since the water is still in liquid form as it travels into the intake manifold, then into the cylinder, we are still dealing with two-phase flow. Mass air flow sensors (if the vehicle is equipped with one) will not be able to accurately measure two-phase flow. There is also, some concern about measurement of temperature under these conditions.

In conclusion, water mist injection, in my opinion, can provide short-term boosts in performance but can never fully replace charge air coolers (intercoolers). If it could, you would see Detroit using it and the big trucks would use it. Charge air coolers do their job continuously with no attention needed...you don't have to worry about the charge air cooler running out on you as you cross the Mojave Desert on I-15! Further, the last thing I want to deal with is keeping another tank topped off.

[StephenA]

Hi Ron, Thanks for the input. Say, is there any advantage in having both an air to air & an air to water or mister hooked up?

[mhagie]

This conversation on water injection brings to mind what my father in law told me back in the 60's about a tractor he had, it was a Waterloo Boy the pre runner to the current John Deere.
I wish now I had paid more attention, as he told me If I remember it correctly that on that tractor when it comenced to pulling hard you opened a valve and it mixed water in with the gasoline and it gave a boost in power.
This would have been in the late 20's/early 30's so one can see this idea has been around a long time. :D

[Jim P]

I do some machining for some local tractor pullers and they use hydrogen peroxide in their water injection systems. Peroxide is h202 where water is just h20 so peroxide has an extra molecule of oxygen that adds somewhat to the combustion process. I have never seen any hard evidence to show whether it really helps but I do know they are using it. I do realize that it would be pretty expensive to buy enough peroxide to go a long ways but it might be worth a try for a pull off or something.

Just a thought.

[StephenA]

Wonder if it would do anything for freezing... It wouldn't be to hard to find a wholesale source if it added significant power. Also good for scraped knuckles...

[pannhead]

i wonder what h202 does (bad?) to certian metals.....any chemists here?

[Kollin Syverson]

Hydrogen peroxide is very corrosive and also an oxidizer. I sell it at work. This product is 35%, what you buy in the store is 3%. Get this stuff on wood and you have a potential fire. Get it on your skin and it turns white RFN. I would stay away from it myself.

[autocrosser]

More air and more oxygen calls for more fuel to use it properly.

[Kidd]

I think if you inject water through a fine jet into an airstream at 300 degrees or so you will find the water would be a vapour. I used to use water injection on my old 350 gasser, and the water would vaporize. At least, I never ever found free water in the intake manifold. The amount of water used is not that great, a gallon would go all day. I also found that the combustion chamber would be very clean, no carbon or any other deposits. The main reason I am interested in water injection is I just don't have anywhere to put an intercooler. :(

K.D.

[BuffaloGuy]

Ditto to KD. No room for an intercooler and $1300 for a custom kit is too much for me. I am very interested in how this system works practically.

How much water would you need pulling a load all day? How do you keep it from freezing up? Is distilled water a must?

[rjschoolcraft]

Buffalo Guy:

The $1300.00 I spent on Kennedy's intercooler is the best money I've spent on the truck. It's amazing just how much it helped. Like you, I was reluctant to plunk down that much money, but after struggling through our trip to California this summer, it was the first thing that I installed when I got home.

I, too, am interested in the outcome of water mist injection. However, the practical engineer in me is skeptical that it can compare to an intercooler for the "towing all day" case.

[StephenA]

Hi, Buffalo Guy
This thread is getting lengthy, but above it discusses using alcohol & methanol to prevent freezing, an adjustable pressure switch to add water only at 11psi boost & above & other originations on full time or part time water usage.
It seems to me that with Bill Heath's discription, this is a legitmate intercooling option all by it's self, as well as in addition to retrofitted air to air intercoolers. Bill may join this discussion sometime this week.

[BuffaloGuy]

Hello to you too Stephan. I read the above but the devil is in the detail. How much methanol? Good down to what temp? Etc. I will wait until the salesmen start making their pitch smile.gif

[computer monkey]

MorePower, I wanted to see how the article is coming that you mentioned earlier in this post.

Has anyone had both mist and air to air intercooler and if so which one did they like, why. Was you doing long hard pull, short heavy up hill pulls etc.

[DAVE FERENCZ]

Im intrested in the water mist idea. Somone said try Bill Heaths I can't find it on his page. It's cheaper and it sounds like I can install it myself.

[computer monkey]

I have talked with Bill, in the middle of upgrading the website a lot of the links are not added yet, to include mist injection, the max-e torque program for 97 and newer GM diesels.