How to determine a mech. inj. 6.5TD w/ NV4500?

[trbankii]

Ok, I'm getting quite a bit of conflicting information here so I figured I'd throw it out to the 6.5TD gods to set me straight and enlighten me.

I've been looking for a 6.5TD for a project. Just to complicate matters, I've narrowed it down to something specific powertrain-wise. Based on personal preferences as well as recommendations, I'm looking for a mechanically injected 6.5TD backed up by a NV4500 five speed manual 4x4. I'm more flexible on body style, color, and such.

Based on this, I'm told I should be looking for a '93. As a bonus, the '93 NV4500 is the 6.34 first gear.

However, searching the web and talking to dealers (who typically don't know particulars - a truck is a truck to them) this seems to be an elusive critter. Some still list the '93 as a 6.2 and some list them as four speed manuals (definitely not a NV4500). Others list four speeds with overdrive (possibly a NV4500, but why not list it as a five speed?).

If I don't get the granny first, so be it. However, I do want the mechanical injection and the NV4500. Can anyone clue me in as to how to refine my search? Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm getting tired of tracking a truck down, driving out there, and only finding out that it is not what I'm looking for.

As a side note, I thought I had found my perfect truck but some miscommunication and it got away from me.

[5.7L oldsdiesel]

If you want the mechanical DB2 injection with a 6.5 diesel,cube vans are a good place to find them.As for the NV4500,well i'm not sure about those.

[cruzer]

Later model 92's were 6.5 mechanical injection too, along w/93 model yrs. 6.2's are not turbo'd unless some 1 put 1 on, it's usually a Banks kit. Don't know about NV4500's except IIRC, the 1st generations were a 6.54 1st gear. People on this board have converted electronic to mechanical injection.

[curmudge1]

My guess is that any manual tranny with the 6.5TD would be the NV4500, but you could ask the seller/dealer to check the RPO codes in the glovebox.

Anyone heard of a different manual tranny on the 6.5?

[Turbo Al]

Trbanki,
Well I have exactly what you want sitting in my side driveway too bad I won't sell it tongue.gif

The reason you are having a hard time finding one is that only about 7% of the trucks made got the NV4500 and yes it is called a 4speed with overdrive because that is exactly what it is, a 4 speed with an OD bolted to the back of it. You are also correct on the "good" year which is 1993 to 95 that has the low 1st gear ratio, with 93 being the only year for Mechanical injection
Yes they DID still stick a few 6.2 NA in the 1993 trucks who the heck knows why :confused:

Keep looking in 1992 it took me 3 months to find my truck because I wanted the NV4500 with 3.43 rear axle ratio -- I think they made two of them ;)

BTW You will not find many ext cab trucks because they didn't start making them till halfway throug 1993 IF I remember correctly. :rolleyes:
What price range are you looking at?
Al

[ 08-25-2005, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Turbo Al ]

[trbankii]

Thanks for all the input.

I've actually seen the granny first for the NV4500 listed as 6.10, 6.34, and 6.54... The 6.34 number seems to come up most often. Truthfully, I can pass on having to have the 6.34 ratio, but still want the NV4500.

Quickly looking back through past articles, I notice the biggest problem with the injector pump swap is with automatic transmissions, so possibly a later engine with the modification would be a possibility. Have to do some reading and see what my options are.

The crossover between 6.2s and 6.5s seems to confuse some people. "Sure, we have a 6.5 on the lot with a five speed" only to get there and find it is a 6.2 with a four speed...

For most people, all the dealer has to worry about is whether it is the right color and standard vs. extended cab. You start asking about different engines, transmissions, axle ratios, and options and they look like you grew a third arm out of your forehead. Not to mention the questions about why you'd want a diesel and don't you really want an automatic...

Haven't had much look with the local classifieds as far as private party sellers either.

Turbo Al, I realize that I'm looking for a needle in the haystack... smile.gif Standard cab is fine, doesn't need to be extended cab. I also want a basic work truck, not all the fancy options. Am I unrealistic to be thinking $3.5K to $6K?

[ 08-25-2005, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: trbankii ]

[Hubert]

Well, all I can say is be patient. Dilligently searching it took me over a year to find my truck ext cab 6.5 5spd K2500 short bed. I'd say a 2-3% build at best.

Dealers about drove me insane.

I want to say the other manual is a NV3500 maybe designates the granny low gear. (I think)

I searched cars.com, autotrader.com and tried their search features once a week. Even bought a subscription to Autotrader and had it mailed to my house from the next region.

I would think rural PA might help in the search. Also try midwest and hilly areas VA, western NC farm communities etc. Manuals are not as popular in urban areas (but are cheaper there).

[cruzer]

You're right 6.34:1 was the lowest gear offered.
Then changed to 5.61:1 1995 and later. Check out www.high-impact.net (http://www.high-impact.net) & novak-adapt.com for good info on NV4500.

[trbankii]

Guess I will have to do the "regular and systematic" search rather than looking when I think about it.

AutoTrader is turning up some trucks in my price range. Unfortunately most seem to be out on the West Coast. Guess driving several hours for the right truck would be worth it. Just don't want to show up and find it isn't listed correctly.

Hubert, the NV3500 is a lighter duty five speed found in Jeeps and mid-size Dodge pickups for example.

Another question, if I considered doing the electrical to mechanical swap what year range should I then consider?

[rlvelin]

trbankii

I think I paid $5500 for mine ('93 ext. cab K2500 Silverado, 6.5TD, mechanical injection with NV4500 with granny 1st, and 4:10 gears) two years ago with 188,000 miles on it so $5-$7k seems reasonable. Sierras (no fancy options) and/or std cabs might be a little less then $5k.

To make the needle in the haystack search even more difficult, I guess they put Getrag 5 spds behind some 6.5L. The parts guys asked if it has the Getrag or NV4500 when I needed a pilot bearing and again when looking for the reverse lamp switch.

The NV4500 has a cast iron looking case, I guess its cast steel though, with rectangular 6 bolt inspection covers on each side. My NV4500 doesn't have the overdrive bolted to it, it is internal to the gear box so I would call it a 5 speed even though it has a granny first and an overdrive 5th.

This could be wrong but I've heard that the '92s with mechanical 6.5s were manufactured in Canada, so there may be more of them there.

[cruzer]

Which came 1st the chicken or the egg! Not that it makes any difference, actually the OD gears are external on the back of the trans and an aluminuim housing/adapter covers them. They are not a bolt on item, the adapter/housing is. FYI

Getrags in GM vehilcles are a disposable trans, there are no parts available.

[trbankii]

Originally posted by cruzer:
Getrags in GM vehilcles are a disposable trans, there are no parts available. Which is why I'm looking for the NV4500. smile.gif

I guess my issue is looking for a specific item. I actually drove two hours only to find out that the truck had an automatic. The dealer's comment was that most people wanted automatics and he was sure I'd fall in love with the truck when I saw it. I was about ready to demand money to pay for my gas up there but left before I decked the guy.

Car dealers, lawyers, telephone solicitors, and politicians are all at the bottom of my list, not necessarily in that order... :D

[Andy Chesek]

trbankii,

Hey neighbor. Funny you brought up this subject. I took a trip today out to the Morgantown area and checked out a '95 Chevy K2500 EC/LB 6.5L+4L80E sitting at D'Ambrosio Dodge (Elverson, PA). Has 148k miles on the ticker, but I was told it has 30k on the engine. Glovebox shows it came with 4.10 gears. $8,250 posted on AutoTrader.com.

The reasons I looked at this truck:

1. Updated interior (appeals to me much more than pre '95)
2. OBD-I electronics
3. Automatic tranny (sick of these freakin' frequent clutch problems)

The OBD-I system is the biggie. I, too, like the idea of mechanical injection, but no one has come forward to say they've successfully done a DS4-to-DB2 swap in a '96-and-up OBD-II truck. On the other hand, there are plenty of success stories when it comes to '94 and '95 trucks.


I drove home disappointed. First, there are a few major dents in the truck. The ad on AutoTrader.com only shows 1 picture, and it's one of 2 possible views where you won't see a dent. Second, I expected the truck to take off like a shot when I hammered the accelerator... didn't really happen. My '99 with 3.73's and NV4500 would kill that '95 in a race, something wasn't kosher there. Dealer said the truck was a local trade, and the engine was a GM crate job. Trader is a local, bought an '05 Ram crew cab Hemi thing.

I drove a '97 'F' 6.5L+Auto+4.10's and that truck had some serious snot to it. Also drove a '98 'F' 6.5L+Auto+3.73's and thought it was set up real nice to be a highway cruiser. The '95 today... is it the old electronics making the difference? Just didn't have the mustard.

If the body was in better shape, may have made a deal anyhow. Just think DB2... or 12V Cummins :)
Too bad Dodge didn't offer the 12V in '99, I'd be set. Yes people, the Duramax is cool... but the Cummins has it all over in the sound department.

[trbankii]

93_Burrito, so you're the guy I'm competing against in this search! :D ;)

I know what you're saying about the OBD-II, so it looks like I could possibly expand my search to '95.

If you ever want to do some bench racing, we could meet up at KClinger's (or Reeser's if a brew isn't your thing).

[trbankii]

Originally posted by Turbo Al:
...the NV4500 and yes it is called a 4speed with overdrive because that is exactly what it is, a 4 speed with an OD bolted to the back of it.I guess my confusion is that I've never seen an application without the fifth gear on an NV4500 and most of the time fifth gear is an overdrive in any application. So why not just call it a five speed like everyone else? :confused:

[Turbo Al]

Way back then I think OD was more in demand than just a plain old 5 speed ;)
I did an edit on my first post -- sounded like the 6.34 gear ratio was only in the 93 in fact it is in 93 to 95 1/2 with the 93 being the mechanical injection system.

I don't know what the USA market values are but the bloody things are going up in value here.

Cruz, chicken and egg -- I like that, the OD gear is in fact below the main shaft on the outside of the 4 speed housing covered by an aluminum housing. Sort of looks like who ever designed it forgot the OD and added it later :rolleyes:

Al

[trbankii]

I agree that the arrangement for the fifth gear is a little odd. But I am unaware of any application that does not use it. One story I heard (however unlikely) was that it was done that way to also allow an option of a six speed trans but then they ended up making a number of other changes when they introduced the 5600.

Is the overdrive unit different between the 2WD and 4WD versions?

[trbankii]

Found the following information:

What are the major design changes?
The NV4500 series transmissions have undergone many minor and major design changes since 1992. The minor changes, while important for durability and shifting ease, are not easily identifiable to the layman trying to determine the features of a particular transmission. The following list shows the major changes we have identified. To precisely identify a particular transmission by part number, get the numbers off the build tag on the left PTO cover and the decals on top of the top cover.

For Dodge:

</font> The light duty 1" 19 spline input shaft used in 1992-93 was changed to 1 1/8" 10 spline in 1994.</font> 1992-93 models had a coarse thread shift stub. This was replaced by a square stub that accepted a press on shift lever for 1994-1997. A metric threaded shift stub was introduced for 1998.</font> 1992-1996 had an interlock mechanism built into the 1-2 syncro to prevent high speed downshifts into 1st or second gear. This feature was dropped during the 1996 model year</font> In 1997, New Venture changed the design of reverse gear from a dual plane to a single plane. The reverse gear ratio was changed from 5.61:1 to 5.04:1.</font> For 1998, the shift tower and shift handle were redesigned. 2WD models no longer had a speedometer drive (the speedo works of the rear axle). 4x4 tailshaft housings were changed to eliminate mountings for the transfer case shift lever. Also, with HD models, the mainshaft nut was redesigned. This change first showed up on transmissions with an AD suffix on the Dodge part number (ex: 52108131AD)</font>
For GM:

</font> 1992-1994 transmissions had a wider gear ratio with 1st gear being 6.34-1. Starting in 1995, the 1st gear ratio was changed to 5.61-1.</font> 1992-1998 models did not have a synchronized reverse gear. A synchronized reverse was introduced for the 1999 model year</font> 1992-93 models had an interlock mechanism built into the 1-2 syncro to prevent high speed downshifts into 1st or second gear. This feature was dropped for 1994 according to our GM parts book, however we have found them on some 1994 transmissions.</font> 1992-1995 transmissions had a bellhousing bolt pattern unique to GM. For 1996 and newer transmissions, GM uses the Dodge bolt pattern.</font> In 1997, New Venture changed the design of reverse gear from a dual plane to a single plane. The reverse gear ratio was changed from 5.61:1 to 5.04:1</font>

[RT]

Keep looking, the truck you want is out there. I have seen a few on Ebay in the past months. Be patient and one will turn up. RT

[trbankii]

Definitely going to keep looking and I been patient so far, so what's a little more time.

Since what I am looking for is on the rare side, I'll probably want to move somewhat quickly if one actually turns up. With all the cracked block, broken crank, etc, etc issues what are the suggestions as far as things to look, listen, feel for when taking it for that test drive. Obviously a broken crank is going to be a little noticeable, but short of dropping the oil pan and pulling the engine block apart is there anything specific to do?

[rlvelin]

I suspect the 'overdrive unit' may be different between 4wd and 2wd as there are reports here that the OD is in an aluminum housing at the rear of the the trans. All of the gears in my tranny and the only other NV4500 I've seen were within the main cast case, both were 4wd applications (one dodge, other chevy of coarse). The transfer case adapter bolts directly to the rear of the transmission and the only thing in there is the tailshaft, I've looked. Maybe I have some oddball setup or something.

[jeffscarstrucks]

I would not give up on your search! I have had my 93 CCDually 5 speed for about ten years and would not have an automatic truck again. I like the ability to manage the engine whether towing or not. Good Luck, JEFF

[trbankii]

Thanks for all the encouragement! I'll keep people posted as my search continues.

[Turbo Al]

Mine goes 4 speed casing (case steel or iron) OD housing (aluminum) Trans mount, transfer case, tailshaft then drive shaft. It is a 1992 vintage in a 1993 truck. Came that way.
Al

[roclongrider]

Good evening,
My neighbor has a '93 K3500 6.5TD, 5 speed, SRW Ext Cab 4X4 for sale right now. If I remember correctly, 130,000 miles. Asking $6500. Too bad your so far away, but they are out there!! Good luck in your search.

[trbankii]

They are definitely out there. I'm sort of hoping that with the current incentives on the new ones that it may prompt people to trade in their old ones. Looked at a possible one on Saturday that had been traded in to a dealer. So far it looks good mechanically. It has that typical GM peeling paint and some minor dings along the sides and the bed is well used. But no real rust anywhere. When we went to take it for a test drive the hydraulic line to the clutch blew, so he has to fix that today so that I can try it out.

Will let you guys know what happens.

[trbankii]

Well, found one way to confirm it:

RPO Codes
L65 -- ENGINE, DIESEL, 8 CYL, 6.5L. TURBO, HO
MT8 -- TRANSMISSION, MAN 5 SPD, NEW PROCESS, 109MM, 6.34

Does anyone know what a "Control Sales Item" is in the RPO codes? I have three with various numbers: 42, 76, 98.

[C.K. Piquup]

The 6.5TD was launched late in`92 in 8-lug regular cabs and the 3500HD.I ordered a K3500 GMC SRW SLE as you describe.In`93 the motor was available in all full-size bodies,including the Blazers ans Suburbans.Everything but a regular cab shortbed.That`s what you`re looking for.If it was manual,it had an NV4500.Mine is a 5spd w/4.10 gears.It went 250,000 miles trouble free until I put a motor from a wrecked `95 truck I had installed an MFI crate motor in.

[Bobbie Martin]

Don't be afraid of buying a DS4 electronic pump equipped truck. With a manual transmission, the swap to a DB2 (mechanical) injection pump is fairly easy. I wouldn't even worry if its a OBD II truck. I'm sure I could figure out how to install a DB2 with a manual transmission in a OBD II truck without too much trouble.

[trbankii]

Well, picked up the '93 listed in my signature line on Saturday. Thank you all for all the help and answers, I'm sure there are more questions to come!