Suspect Bad Fuel Injection Pump - Going To Dealer

[93_Burrito]

Good morrow,

For some time now, I've had trouble with my 2000 K2500 6.5L TD/4L80E.
This truck currently has 57k miles on the odometer... Symptoms include:

1. Very touchy throttle. Applying or releasing the accelerator pedal feels like you've just dumped the clutch with the engine revved up pretty good.

2. Truck will not maintain a constant speed. This is most prevalent at highway speeds. Any pressure whatsoever on the accelerator, and the truck will keep accelerating.

3. When up to highway speed, the truck may upshift to fourth gear, then drop back to 3rd within a second or two. It typically does this once or twice, then I get no higher than 3rd (and high RPM's). Once in a blue moon fourth will hold and the convertor locks up, but then the truck wants to race to 100 MPH.

4. If I try to set the cruise control, the truck will race to the desired speed. Then it will slam you when it cuts off the throttle.

From what I've gathered, my symptoms suggest that something mechanically has failed at the fuel solenoid in the fuel injection pump.

Because my fuel injeciton pump is under warranty, I called Forbes Chevrolet in Camp Hill, PA and spoke with a service writer. I mentioned the above issues with my truck's performance, and he asked if they can keep the truck for several days. The writer believes the pump is probably bad, but it will take some time for the dealership to work things out with GM over the warranty.

That being said, I would like to make sure my truck is ready to go in the shop to make the diagnosis as simple as possible. A fresh fuel filter and clean filter bowl would be in order, I presume. Anything else I should address? Thanks.

Andy

[More Power]

A fresh fuel filter and clean filter bowl would be in order, I presume.

That, and remove any non-stock aftermarket equipment from under the hood.

This should be an easy to diagnose problem for your dealer. Let us know how it turns out.

Jim

[93_Burrito]

Dropped the truck off at the dealer at 8:15 AM. At 3:30 PM, a service writer calls with an update:

1. No codes are presently set
2. Could be crankshaft position sensor or fuel injection pump, but aren't sure. They want to replace the crankshaft position sensor at a cost of $369 + tax.

A faulty crankshaft position sensor should trigger DTC P0335, a type "A" code which would set the SES light. Symptoms would include long cranking/hard starting, fast idle, and backup fuel. I don't have any of those.

At 4:00 PM, the diesel technician called me. He said he has been working on diesels for 20 years, and in all his years of service he has yet to replace a failed DS4 pump that hasn't set a code... but I could be the first.

1. He confirmed the touchy throttle
2. Fuel solenoid closure time is 1.85 ms
3. Fuel rate @ idle: 0.3 mm

I asked the tech what the acceptable fuel rate @ idle is, and he didn't know off the top of his head. Over at Diesel Place, Texas Diesel Guy has reported that a fuel rate of 0 - 5 mm @ idle is the clue to fuel solenoid failure. I mentioned that rate to the dealer tech, and he said he will call GM for assistance and buzz me back when he confirms that.

The tech made it abundantly clear that the dealership would be more than happy for me to come pick my truck up...

[93_Burrito]

The diesel tech called back at 4:35 PM. GM Technical Assistance confirmed that the fuel solenoid has failed. Both the tech and GMTA were surprised that code P0219 wasn't set, which is for engine overrun.

Tomorrow morning they will begin the process. I was told that I can expect the truck to be ready by Wednesday of next week.

Question: The tech said I will probably be subject to $500 - 600 in labor fees when this is all said and done. Is this correct? Isn't the pump to be replaced at no charge to the customer?

Andy

[JohnC]

$500-600 for what? If the pump is replaced under the program, there is no deductable and labor is covered. Not your fault they missed the diagnosis...

[93_Burrito]

The tech said he put 1.7 hours of labor into troubleshooting the problem before they called me wanting to replace the crankshaft position sensor. This dealership presently charges $75/hr to work on diesel engines (standard rate is $72/hr).

He told me that people expect a free IP because their vehicle falls under the 11-year / 120,000 mile blanket, but it's not the case. He claims that the special policy only provides for a free replacement IP, not including the labor to diagnose and perform the swap. And of course, the dealership doesn't want to absorb the labor cost for this. This didn't sound right to me... thanks again guys.


Andy

[billschall]

I'll email you a copy of the TSB regarding the fuel pump recall if you want. Lemme know by PM'ing your email address to me.

-Bill

[93_Burrito]

Just got a phone call at 9:25 AM. The diesel technician said they've gone through the checklist, but have stopped with the last item... fuel quality. They claim that there is a red tint to it, and after speaking to his supervisor, they feel they can go no further in working on the truck. He said I have a $135 bill for labor, what next... I told him to let the truck sit, I'll get back to him.

Now, I go to the same Hess station religiously to fill up. It is a hi-volume place with plenty of pickups and big trucks using their pumps.

The tech said they don't work on many 6.5's, mostly "real diesels." And they can't risk getting flagged by GM over this fuel... any input?

Andy

[Robyn]

As long as the fuel is being pumped out of a pump that says ULSD you are really at the mercy of the fuel seller.

If the station is allowing off road fuel to get mixed in they can get into a real mess with the IRS for selling "offroad fuel" as onroad stuff.
Like mixing it to cut their costs.

What Im am suspect though is that the shop simply does not want to work on your truck and they are looking for any excuse at all.

Even if the sucker had a full tank of purple off road fuel the pump is not going to care.

I was out this past summer and got way out in the sticks and needed to get fuel.
It was a Sunday afternoon and the only place open in the little town was out of on road fuel untill Monday sometime.
I boought a load of the purple stuff and my 94 run fine on it.
The DS4 pumps according to what I have been told by the local pump rebuilder will work fine on purple fuel.

The issue is the "road Tax" and the environmental hooopla.
This dealer is jacking with you plain and simple.
Call the GM rep for your area and raise hell.

As long as you are buying your fuel in good faith and not deliberately trying to hide something you can't be held at fault here.

Now I have heard of some really lame excuses but to tell a customer they cant go forward because the fuel is slightly off color --- BS

All it would take is a tanker used to haul offroad fuel to have a small amount of purple left in it then haul ULSD, poof slight tint.

I get different colors all the time depending on where I fuel my big truck.
My fuel card will not buy off road fuel anyway.

You need to get your foot on the reps neck and just raise some serious hell over this.
The pump is supposed to be covered under warranty and thats all there is to it..

Good luck and keep us posted

[93_Burrito]

Thursday, 11:15 AM.

I just went to the dealership to make them prove their claim of iffy fuel quality. Please see the pictures I took in my Photo Album:

http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=421&cat=500&ppuser=18615


Clearly this is a sticking point for them. The tech did tell me because our area is still using a winter blend, that works against me in the hydrometer test. I then asked specifically about ultra-low sulfur diesel, because that is what I've pumped into the truck during my last few trips to the fuel stop. He said that will certainly work against me as well, adding that those 2 factors are probably the reason why my fuel flunked the test.

That being said, they won't do any more with my truck unless they get approval from GM. The tech said he was surprised he didn't get a call from GM Customer Service yet... I told him to wait by the phone.


- Andy

[93_Burrito]

12:55 PM Thursday

Just got off the phone with GM Customer Service. I reiterated numerous times that I have no choice but to use winter-blended and ultra-low sulfur fuel, which is causing the hydrometer test to fail. They said the fuel failed, and their hands are tied... Spoke to a customer service manager, and she played the same game. Thanks for being a loyal GM fan, but we're sorry... blah blah woof woof. Neither cared to hear it when I offered to have a fuel sample pulled from the Hess station I fill up at. They asked me to take it to another Chevy dealership, and I refused because Forbes will try to stick me for $135 in diagnostics costs, then I'll get stuck with the same story at the next shop. The truck will sit where it sits until I get my pump. She offered to escalate the issue to the GM Area Rep, and I told her to go for it. So, they are setting up a phone call with this person, whom they won't name, for between 9 - 11 AM Monday morning. He may call me directly, or he may leave a message for customer service to pass along. Sounds like they just don't care...


- Andy

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

"...have stopped with the last item... fuel quality. They claim that there is a red tint to it..." If it were me, I'd ask them what about red-tinted fuel would make any difference to the IP?

I have (completely legally) run 400 gallons of dyed (off-road) fuel through my 95 pickup & Sub with absolutely no problem whatsoever. ~ 1/2 of that went through serially (dyed fuel continuously), the other ~ 1/2 went through every other tank. No operational changes at all were noticed, not even mpg. The dye, at least in my case, didn't affect the optical sensor enough to cause any trouble. The fact that this fuel had MUCH higher sulfur apparently had no negative impact in the IP - I've driven the 95 pickup > 160K miles & the IP hasn't been changed yet. Of course, the dyed fuel had better lubricity, but it doesn't sound like we had any lubricity issues with the 1st LSD (< 500 ppm sulfur) that has recently been replaced by ULSD (< 15 ppm sulfur).

So, the question remains: What is there about red-tinted fuel that would hurt an IP? IMHO they are desperately digging for a way to not help you. Their comments about mostly working on "real diesels" would indicate to me that they don't know what they're doing with your truck, which is all too common - finding a good 6.5 shop can be very difficult.

Any members know of a good Chev garage somewhere close to this poor guy? I'd do whatever I had to do (not to include paying them anything) to get it out of their shop. IMHO they want you to pay $135 for troubleshooting because they don't know what they're doing - many here on the Page have had dealers simply replace the IP as required, no charge (I think, or maybe $100?).

Dig in your heels. If you're blessed with something else to drive, let 'em rot until you get satisfaction.

"Sounds like they just don't care..." Don't get me wrong, you almost certainly deserve an IP, but the fact that GM (& the other American mfg's) probably won't be in business in 10 years might impact their behavior. Yeah, I know, if they'd done it right in the 1st place, no problem, but sometimes when you're up to your neck in gators, you can forget that you went in to drain the swamp.

It's a real dillema: I haven't yet chosen to buy any vehicles with foreign nameplates, because I don't want them using the profits to buy more of my country, but it's pretty hard to deny that Toyota builds the bar-none best vehicles in the world, with others of their ilk close behind.

Sorry for the tangent; All the best &...

Blessings!

[93_Burrito]

I think the tech misspoke when he said there was a red tint to the fuel. He probably meant the hydrometer settled in the red area during the test. The fuel itself looks almost like pickle juice, I swear they put some kinda green dye in the ultra-low sulfur fuel at the station I fill up at. I haven't filled up elsewhere to compare! Speaking of that, I don't even know where to get off-road diesel around here, let alone intentionally fill the tank up with it.

The tech also corrected himself with the fuel rate @ idle. He mentioned 0.3 mm, and it was actually 3.0 mm. Either value meant fuel solenoid failure, but he informed me of his mistake when I met him this morning.

Money is not the issue here. I could pay the $135 if I so choose, but as a loyal customer to this particular dealership, I expect better treatment. The diesel tech and a service writer asked if I had regular maintenance work performed there. I told them I didn't because I'm a hands-on person, but I buy all the parts I need through them. They both said they couldn't care less what I do at the parts counter. I guess I need to track down the dealership's manager. If anyone would know how valuable a customer I am, my two buddies at the parts counter can vouch for me. I get parts for my truck, girlfriend's Tahoe, her parents' 2 Chevy pickups, my mother's Lumina... the service guys are plain ignorant in that respect.

What I want from Forbes, is to take a chance on replacing the pump. If they end up being out $800 because GM finds the fuel iffy, so what. I've pumped far more money into its pockets, they'd still be way ahead of the game.

The fuel injection pump is to be replaced/repaired at no charge to the customer, as per special policy 00064 (currently revision F).


- Andy

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

"They both said they couldn't care less what I do at the parts counter." It would be bad enough having this kind of attitude, even in private; I can't imagine folks actually expressing such an attitude & staying employed. These folks need a serious attitude adjustment.

"I guess I need to track down the dealership's manager." He/she desperately needs to know such attitudes exist in his personnel. If he/she doesn't care that such attitudes exist, dust off your sandals & take your business down the road; let the good guys in the parts dept. know you're leaving & why.

"...the service guys are plain ignorant in that respect." They don't need to know anything about you & your spending habits to know their attitude is pretty close to 180

[billschall]

I think the tech misspoke when he said there was a red tint to the fuel. He probably meant the hydrometer settled in the red area during the test.

I'd question any measuring device that displays color ranges rather than numerical values. Might also want to ask where the thermometer is to ascertain the temperature of the fluid being tested (must be 60F).

Furthermore, density (specific gravity - SG) affects power. There is roughly a 4 percent decrease in thermal energy content for every 10 degree increase in SG. Higher density fuels, such as Biodiesel, result in decreased power & increased fuel consumption (lower MPG).

These are not the Sx that you initially described.

I've got a hydrometer if you'd like to borrow it... :)

[HammerWerf]

93_Buritto,

When I worked in powerplants, I use to do diesel fuel delivery QC testing. One test was the Specific Gravity. The way to get the true result was to make sure the hydrometer was not touching the sides of the test container. Touching the sides would hold the hydrometer in place, giving a false value. I can't quite see in the pictures, but the hydrometer looks a bit cocked in the vessel. Also, it looks like the top of the hydrometer is caught on the neckdown area of the sample getter( lack of better term of tool). Either situation will give a false reading.


HammerWerf

[GreenGiant]

Build a fire under them, leave footprints on thier scalp on your way to the top of the corporate ladder!

A friend of mine had injectors replaced under warranty in his Duramax. It ran 100miles before the crankcase filled with diesel. He went back to the dealership and they told him that the #8 injector hold down bolt snapped and allowed the injector to pop out breaking a fuel line. Oh and by the way we have to pull the head to get the bolt out, it will cost you $3500. The fact that the bolt that broke was improperly torqued by the tech installing the warranty injectors and therefor would in turn be a warranty item, makes no differance to them.

GM corporate is now involved and looking at the dealership very carefully.The truck has been sitting in thier lot for a month now.

Stick to your guns!

[93_Burrito]

billschall,

Is there any place I can find information about performing the fuel test correctly? ( i.e. testing the fuel at 60F ).

rjwest pointed out in another thread that I can have the fuel injection pump replaced elsewhere and get reimbursed. GM Customer Service mentioned that as a possibility, but also said they still might not warranty the pump. If the pump wasn't covered by the special policy, I would have swapped the pump myself by now...

HammerWerf, thanks for the heads up. Once I get a little more information, I may go back to the dealership for a second whack at the fuel quality.

- Andy

[billschall]

Andy,

SG, or density, is a relative measurement compared to water at a given temp - 60F.
http://www.firstfuelbank.com/msds/diesel-total.pdf

I dug around ASTM's website before the previous post and couldn't find the spec sheet detailing their criteria. Nevertheless, 60F is an industry standard for SG calculations. A google search for this info will readily reveal the temp standard, but the range (i.e.- 0.82 to 0.98 OR 0.81 - 1.08) varies rather widely and seems dependent on the publishing lab.

Point is: they're using some chinsy "bubble gauge" to evaluate a property of the fuel that has no F'N BEARING on the Sx of your original complaint.

Tell 'em to either fix it or find somebody that can. Hell, let 'em put the CPS in but make them guarantee that the problem is resolved or else you're comin' back w/ both barrels loaded...Keep hammering them dude... threaten a complaint to the PA Attorney General...

The squeaky wheel ALWAYS gets the grease and you got a right to squeak...


"YOUR IN FORBES COUNTRY!!!!!! FORBES C-H-E-V-R-O-L-A-Y COUNTREE!!"


-Bill

[Turbine Doc]

See if you have one of those local interest reporters, "channel 10 on your side" etc; they love these type of stories, you have the special policy make the dealer under glare of the camera show where it says in it that you have to pay for troubleshooting etc.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

If necessary to get your truck out of there, I'd be tempted to sign up for a new credit card, charge their tab, & never pay it. This of course only works if you don't care about your credit rating & history (I don't).

Blessings!

[rfuntime]

Andy,

I would call the Better Business Bureau in your state. I had a 5.7 diesel that went bad, the dealer told me I would have to pay for the motor myself. After filling out a complaint with the Bureau, within 4 HOURS GM called and asked what they could to to help fix my problem. Needless to say, when I took it back to the dealer for the new motor, they weren't too happy with me. The Better Business Bureau really frowns on the kind of treatment you are getting. Try it. It works. Paul

[93_Burrito]

The service department was more than happy to "diagnose" my problem, even though I told them I was about 100% sure the pump was bad when I dropped the truck off. And as I said before, this 20-year GM mechanic couldn't nail down the problem, he was dead in the water because there was no code or SES light. I guess the term "mechanic" is pretty much dead these days.

They pegged me for $135 and basically said they don't want to work on the truck... just want to take the money and run. Having known up front there was a pump problem, they should have just refused to look at it when I took it in... They won't see that $135, one way or another.

I have to thank you guys again for the extra ammo you're providing. I'm reloading for the call from the GM Area Rep...

- Andy

[Robyn]

Get the truck home and suck all the fuel out and pump in some new stuff that will meet the quality they want.

This is obsurd, you have to buy this crap ULSD stuff and the manufacture wont fix the pump because the fuel wont pass their standards????????
Whats wrong with this scenario???????????// ;0(

[BrentN]

I have a copy of of a GM Document (Dated August 12th, 2003) from their Service Department CD set that clearly states the following (I can get a full copy of it if you PM me):

"Condition/Concern:
GM Dealer notices red diesel fuel being used in vehicles equipped with a GM 6.5L or 6.6L Diesel engine.

Recommendation/Instructions:
Engineering reports that red Diesel fuel will not cause any problems when used in the fuel system of our vehicles equipped with the GM 6.5L or 6.6L Diesel engine, and will not cause sensor codes to set. Accordingly, warranty decisions should not be based on the discovery of red fuel in the fuel system or injection pump of a GM 6.5L or 6.6L Diesel engine.

Federal regulations require certain diesel fuels be colored with dye for tax purposes. Diesel fuel injection pumps have been tested with various dyed fuels and have been found to operate satisfactorily with such fuels. Water or other fuel contamination is not covered under the Stanadyne and Bosch warranty regardless of whether the fuel is dyed or not. A change is being made to the service policies and procedures manual, section 4.6.6 to reflect this information. With regards to legality if a customer requests to know what fuel is legal for them to use, refer them to their local government agency for handling. Please refer all inquiries to this document. "

I think having this information should put closure on the whole Red Fuel issue. As many have attested to, the use of the fuel has not caused any problems, and clearly from the above exerpt, GM Engineering doesnt think so either.

Let me know if you need the whole document. Maybe its worth posting like the Pump warranty.

[93_Burrito]

Monday, April 2nd 9:30 AM

Just got a call from GM Customer Service. The GM Area Rep had yet to get back to them in regards to my case, and they asked to set up another call-back period for this Wednesday morning. They sent him another voicemail, and they said they require 24-48 hours for a response. I told the rep that I want the rep to call me directly, she said that would be at the rep's discretion because they represent the independently-owned dealerships. Just great... well, call ended.

Got irked and called back. I explained that I wasn't happy with the extended wait to hear from the rep and am considering filing with a complaint with the BBB this afternoon. The customer service rep, a different one than I had just spoken with, explained that the original customer service rep contacted the wrong Area Rep (aka, District Manager). Customer Service didn't notify the correct Area Rep until the first one returned their voicemail stating they got the wrong man. This is the reason for the extra 24-48 hours. He also told me that, according to the caselog, GM and the dealership are working on this and it looks like... I will get my pump replaced and the dealership will get their reimbursement from GM, but of course nothing is concrete until the Area Rep makes the decision. And of course, I had to tell the customer service rep that my case was unfolding on The Diesel Page. I guess time will tell...


- Andy

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

It can't hurt for them to know that thousands of folks might gonna follow your situation closely.

Blessings!

(signature in previous post)

[93_Burrito]

Tuesday, 9:40 AM

Just got a call from GM Customer Service. They have been contacted by the GM Area Rep, and his decision was to deny replacement of the fuel injection pump under the special policy. The chicken had no desire to speak with me directly, which figures... he does represent the dealership.

I guess they just washed my hands of this dealership, which until now was my recommendation to others.

For any GM eyes out there lurking on this site. Case file:71-500128064
And the offending dealership:

Forbes Chevrolet
3400 Hartzdale Drive
Camp Hill, PA 17011
717.761.0600

And don't forget folks, this dealership only works on "real diesels." Don't bother unless you've got a Duramax.


- Andy


I'm throwing the towel in on this... gonna find a pump, then dump the truck.

[moondoggie]

Good Day!

Whew - a 2000 K2500 6.5L TD/4L80E with 57k miles on the odometer - somebody's gonna get a real good truck. Too bad you don't feel like pushing this to the limit, but we all gotta decide when it's time to fish or cut bait, eh? ;)

All the best &...


Blessings!
(signature in previous post)

[93_Burrito]

Ya know moondoggie, the thought of swapping over to a DB2 pump has crossed my mind... now's a choice time to do it. I'd have some decent hurdles to clear being 4x4 and having a 4L80E, but it's certainly do-able. But there have been more rumblings on the state and federal level that the EPA wants to tighten OBD monitoring in diesel trucks, so I think it'd be best at this point just to replace the pump with another DS4, and say sayonara to the truck.

I picked the truck up at 10:45 AM. One of the parts people I know so well happened to cross my path as I waited to speak with the diesel tech one last time. I mentioned real quick that I had a very sour experience with the service department... don't expect to see me there again. Their jaw hit the floor. At least someone knows what I mean to the dealership as a customer, but it's too bad they don't have the pull to makes thing happen.

trbankii has a drivetrain I am envious of at this point. DB2-powered 6.5L TD backed by a manual transmission. I'm sure others here have a similar setup, it's just that I can recall his... and he lives nearby. I can't say I'll give up on it yet, but I'll never buy a new truck from GM. Hopefully I'll be able to find a '93 in decent shape, when I'm ready, and enjoy simplicity's bliss.

I want to thank everyone for their input. Sometimes you just gotta say screw it....

- Andy
(another DS4 statistic: 04-03-2007)

[ronniejoe]

Giving up like this just makes it harder for the next guy. This dealership is clearly in the wrong and you should not yield. I've been through this...and won. The real question is, "What are you prepared to do?" (to quote Sean Connery as Malone in The Untouchables.)

[Turbine Doc]

Not that it will do much good probably, I just linked this thread and added comment to the GM web site http://www.gmc.com/contactus/emailus_comment.jsp asking how one GM dealer can self interpret warranty coverage, I've had 2 IPs replaced, under warranty last on in Oct. 2006 no hurdles to jump through or proof I hadn't done anything wrong. I also added comment that a Ford Diesel might be the next choice for me based on how GM allows dealers to chose to honor or not honor warranty

[Turbine Doc]

Giving up like this just makes it harder for the next guy. This dealership is clearly in the wrong and you should not yield. I've been through this...and won. The real question is, "What are you prepared to do?" (to quote Sean Connery as Malone in The Untouchables.)


2x on RJ's thoughts; as we used to say in USN, "don't give up the ship" it is a battle uphill but a winnable one, get us a Dealers email address and we can flood this dealer ship with emails, also get us a email address for a local newsroom with a advocacy hotline we can email, if nothing else we can make this dealership think twice about screwing a customer, think about the press where a global internet community fights back.

[sturgeon-phish]

Have you tried to contact the owner of the establishment? To us the issue seems cut and dried. Depending on your "I can be abrasive" level, a crouded dealership showroom, might be a good place to "voice loudly" your concerns and your first admendment rights. Goodness knows the first admendment has been invoked for less noble causes.

[93_Burrito]

Tuesday, 1:45 PM


I called the dealership, and asked for contact information for the owner. His name is George Forbes. I was told he does not have an e-mail address. The person who directs phone calls said we can send him snail mail at the address I gave in my last post. George was at the dealership, and I was able to speak with him directly.

For about 10 minutes, I explained what steps I've taken over the past week trying to get my fuel injection pump replaced under warranty. I told him I've recorded my steps on TheDieselPage.com... he wanted to check things out at the service department and call back. He admitted he knew very little about these trucks, and just reiterated that the tech said the fuel was bad. GM won't honor the pump, blah blah blah. Thanks for buying your parts here, but you need to go somewhere else and get it looked at by someone else. I asked him if he would do anything to maintain me as a customer... can't help me.

I prodded him for contact information for the GM Area Rep. He said he didn't know his name, just that he was based out of the Philadelphia area.

I "paid" the $135 earlier via credit card to get my truck back. Should I have it blocked?


- Andy

[Turbine Doc]

Tuesday, 1:45 PM



I prodded him for contact information for the GM Area Rep. He said he didn't know his name, just that he was based out of the Philadelphia area.

I "paid" the $135 earlier via credit card to get my truck back. Should I have it blocked?

- Andy

Red flag warning makes me wonder if they ever called him you are allowed to appeal this decision, in order to do this you need a name, they have to provide it.


I would they have failed to provide a service you have paid for also they have failed to prove to you how they determined the "fuel was bad", color of fuel is not a justified reason, this truck could have just as easily been a farm truck or construction truck legally running dyded fuel" RED fuel has NO repeat NO effect on operation and warranty can not be denied on that basis. Actually there should be 0 $$$ charged to you for this even diagnostic time is covered under the special policy.

I suspect what has happened here is that the dealer failed to get this authorized BEFORE he did the work, GM won't reimburse him for his time, and he is looking for an out, there are some very specific things a dealer must do before heading down the road for warranty replacement, error is on his part is not yours.

[93_Burrito]

Alright... this is bugging me. Has everyone looked at my pictures in my Photo Album? To me, that fuel does not look red. It looks like pickle juice. In the hydrometer test, the float settled in the red area. I get this feeling that people are equating the hydrometer test result with red-dyed fuel. Is this correct?

The diesel tech said there was no water present in the fuel filter bowl. When I called my contact at the parts counter to get the owner's name, he told me their "real diesel tech" left the dealership a short while ago to work for a local racing team full-time. So, I don't know how/when they brought Wayne in, the guy who's dealt with my truck and claims to have a background with farm diesels...

So, let me pause again and wait for a minute until you can look at the two pictures I uploaded. I know they're not the best, but it's what I've got.
If I am barking up the wrong tree, I've got a pump lined up nearby. If what I think you are saying is correct, then I'll get the GM Area Rep's information and appeal the decision.

- Andy

[ronniejoe]

I agree that the fuel does not look "red" at all. In fact, your explanation a few posts back should suffice. However, they probably tried to "buffalo" you by saying that it had a tint of red to it initially and get you to go away. Problem is, you were too well informed and called their bluff. Then, the hydrometer results get bandied about as a way out of the bluff. You should force them to have the fuel analyzed at an independent lab. This will put the fuel quality business to bed permanently. There are many ways to screw up a hydrometer test.

If this were me, I would not stop until the pump was changed under warranty as promised by the special policy. Follow through on your threat with the Better Business Bureau. If you make enough noise, you can talk directly to GM...I've done it. Threaten, and be prepared to follow up with, a law suite to get this moving. If you know a lawyer, sometimes a letter on their letter head will move things off center.

I would block the $135 payment. Be prepared for them to get nasty and be prepared to push them.

Edited to fix spelling.

[Turbine Doc]

If those are pics of the fuel being drawn and tested in no way could that be misconstrued as "off road" fuel, off road dyed fuel is redder than Stabil gasoline fuel stabilizer.

Which BTW will also in sufficient quantity will turn regular Diesel a somewhat red color as well, I had some I needed to get rid of so I could have the bottle for dispensing/measuring fuel treatment I added it to one of my 5 gal cans that I then filled with Diesel, turned it almost same shade of red as "off-road" fuel. So you may be able to say well there may be some Stabil in there causing the red tint, but really I don't see it from pics you provided

As this story develops more & more, the bovine scatology alert gets louder & louder. From what your dealer is letting on; it is becoming apparent as to how much they really aren't qualifed to work on this or any other Diesel for that matter

[JohnC]

You could also try to get the fiuel supplier involved. Tell them that the dealer says the fuel is bad and it's costing you $X000 and you expect them to pay up or set the dealer straight...

Don't forget the BBB.

Oh, I think your assessment of the "red" fuel is correct. Off road fuel is RED. Yours is not. I think they meant red on the hydrometer. Besides, a year ago the feds gave to OK to sell previously dyed fuel for on road purposes to help aleviate the shortages.

Not a bad idea to get the fuel tested, too. Find out what they put in it to make it so light. It also might be worthwhile to pull another sample from the tank and test that.

[Turbine Doc]

If you know a layer, sometimes a letter on their letter head will move things off center.




On a lighter note RJ that is a pretty apt description of a lawyer as somebody always gets screwed I mean laid

[rjwest]

Get the GM area reps name, They may be BS'ing you,

There's no money in a IP replacement, to much learning curve for incompetents.

They just may not want to be bothered....

Also, may want to camp out at the General managers office'
Than the owners office,,,, and GET names, document everything.

I was going to say, just get it replaced, should be less than 1500 us
at a standyne shop, and send GM the bill, but now that it's case ID'
don't know what results will be.


When I did mine, I said, screw GM dealers, I'll eat the cost if neccessary.
But they paid, I guess they would rather pay a diesel shop vs dealer,
may be cheaper...


I buy used, why, don't have to screw with dealers.....

[simon]

Having a pumpfailure because of dyed fuel is B S. if that where the case ,every farmer and rancher would be sitting by the road by now, cause dyed fuel is all they use" period.

[rfuntime]

You guys are working this too hard. Really, call the Better Business Bureau and let them do the rest. You will be AMAZED once they get involved. Be able to back up your story and watch the results. DON'T give up yet. Paul

[billschall]

OK, Dude. Listen up. The problem is this: your claim was allegedly denied based on the results of a scientific test conducted with mickey mouse equipment. (I may as well stick my finger in your ear to see if you have a fever).

"Red" fuel is not even an issue anymore as you have evidence that clearly disputes that assertion. That leaves the issue of density. And this test must be disputed (or reversed) by you. Fortunately, you already have the initial evidence in photographic form that clearly shows that the test was inadequately performed (no temp gauge and improper equipment).

Screw Forbes. Forget the BBB at this time and don't block your $135 payment to them. GM will probably reimburse you for that as well - especially if you scream.

It's time to go to GM direct, but you will probably need more evidence to "undo" the science-fair project already conducted.

So, you can either have the fuel independently tested at some lab or PM me and I'll come up there this weekend with some real tools and we'll conduct our own little experiment, completely photographed and recorded. My hydrometer is a Chase and is calibrated to measure between 0.850 - 0.900, which should work for you. Been wanting to make a little road trip anyway.

Then go to GM with your new ammo.