New heads now wont start

[Butch smith]

I have been fighting this thing since December I put new heads on it, had it running for about 2 hours then went to drive got about 100 feet and had no resoponse from the throttle just idled then it evenutaully died and would not start. so for I have replaced PMD with a Heath remote mount hit new FSO new OPS and I have drained the tank and replaced the fuel. I have check cleaned all ground wires and all connections I can find, checkec all fuses as well/ I have been reading previous post on this forum and even double checked my connections and grounds battery cables too. I read a post about someone running out of fuel and having to crack the injectors to get air out ofn the lines. I am doing that now. I even took the passenger side exhaust mainfold off to crack those injection lines.I seem to be getting fuel to all of them except the two rear ones on the passenger side. I am doing this myself and it is hard to see what is really going on but there is no fuel on the cardboard that I put there to see if it was wet or not. what would cause this not to be getting fuel to the last two injector lines? It was running fine until it blew the head gaskets and I found two cracked heads.

[Butch smith]

I'm getting fuel out of all lines, hooked back up to injectors, turned engine over with glow plugs out. see fuel spray out of glow plug holes. What am I missing.

[kevin77]

Did you check the PCM codes?

I ended up replacing the heads on my 94 suburban back in December too - when I did - I pulled the engine and did some upgrades, replaced all the gaskets.

The only gremlin I still have are bubbles in the fuel - I have an air leak in the fuel system somewhere. Giving me codes 17 and 35 - fuel delivery issues.

Kevin

[gmctd]

Test each glow plug with battery jumper cables - black to body, red to spade lug - should glow to tip within 5 seconds - middle only is not good enuff for cold weather.

If all good, replace, connect, and measure glow controller terminals for +12v on both terminals during Wait To Start - if supply terminal is +12v and load terminal is lower, say 11v or 10v or less, the controller is failing and glow plugs won't glow enuff for cold weather starting.

If both terminals are 11v or lower, the fusible links in the supply harnesses are bad, or the connections are not tight, resulting in not enuff glow

[Butch smith]

Did you check the PCM codes?

I ended up replacing the heads on my 94 suburban back in December too - when I did - I pulled the engine and did some upgrades, replaced all the gaskets.

The only gremlin I still have are bubbles in the fuel - I have an air leak in the fuel system somewhere. Giving me codes 17 and 35 - fuel delivery issues.

Kevin I have no codes just the 12,12,12

[Butch smith]

Test each glow plug with battery jumper cables - black to body, red to spade lug - should glow to tip within 5 seconds - middle only is not good enuff for cold weather.

If all good, replace, connect, and measure glow controller terminals for +12v on both terminals during Wait To Start - if supply terminal is +12v and load terminal is lower, say 11v or 10v or less, the controller is failing and glow plugs won't glow enuff for cold weather starting.

If both terminals are 11v or lower, the fusible links in the supply harnesses are bad, or the connections are not tight, resulting in not enuff glow
I have tested glow plugs they turn bright red in about 3 seconds I have not tested this controller yet,I did put a test light to each GP lead during cycle I was getting power to them. but I will test the controller for voltage I had not done that yet. I did have it pluged in, for about 20 minutes and it did not seem to matter. Thanks

[gmctd]

Good - just to make sure, here - you must do the glow test with your vehicle batteries - not a battery charger.

An inexpensive battery-charger functions by applying a greater voltage to the batteries - say 20v - to force the current into the cells - the higher the applied voltage, the greater the charging current.

Thus, a battery-charger will not give accurate results, and may damage the 'plugs, or blow them - they glow ok, blow, and are then installed as tested good.

[Butch smith]

Good - just to make sure, here - you must do the glow test with your vehicle batteries - not a battery charger.

An inexpensive battery-charger functions by applying a greater voltage to the batteries - say 20v - to force the current into the cells - the higher the applied voltage, the greater the charging current.

Thus, a battery-charger will not give accurate results, and may damage the 'plugs, or blow them - they glow ok, blow, and are then installed as tested good.
I tested with the batteries out of my truck,

[gmctd]

Good - next step =

reassemble everything, disconnect the ECT sensor - on the t-stat crossover manifold, near the heater hose connection - try another cold-start

post the results, as to length of glow duration - how long the WTS indicator is on - and any symptoms

Well, that's two steps - so, I lied...............

[Butch smith]

I am in the middle of putting back together now I am almost there. I will try to start later this afternoon. Then I will post what it is doing. I have printed off your post so I will be able to be give you a good reply

[Butch smith]

Test each glow plug with battery jumper cables - black to body, red to spade lug - should glow to tip within 5 seconds - middle only is not good enuff for cold weather.

If all good, replace, connect, and measure glow controller terminals for +12v on both terminals during Wait To Start - if supply terminal is +12v and load terminal is lower, say 11v or 10v or less, the controller is failing and glow plugs won't glow enuff for cold weather starting.

If both terminals are 11v or lower, the fusible links in the supply harnesses are bad, or the connections are not tight, resulting in not enuff glow
I did the test you suggested. the WTS light stays on for about 8 seconds you know 1001 1002 up to 1008 I put a volt meter to the posts on the GP controler and the The drive side post read 12 Volts the other one was 10 then zero when the GP light went out. If I understood you correctly this means I need a new controller/ it is about 40 degress here right now I have tried to plug it in as well no luck but that doesnt mean the block heater is working either. I will deal with it later.

[gmctd]

Ok - good test results - when you're ready, try measuring across the controller during WTS again to verify the failure.

If the glow side terminal is low make sure the terminal post nuts are tite - if so, time for a new controller

You can pop the rivets out of the plastic housing with sharp-edged electronics dikes, remove the terminal nuts, open the thing up to look at the condition of the terminals.

[Butch smith]

Ok - good test results - when you're ready, try measuring across the controller during WTS again to verify the failure.

If the glow side terminal is low make sure the terminal post nuts are tite - if so, time for a new controller

You can pop the rivets out of the plastic housing with sharp-edged electronics dikes, remove the terminal nuts, open the thing up to look at the condition of the terminals. I re-testsed and check all the connections, I am still just get 10 volts on the GP side. I have oredered a controller it will be here in the morning. hope this is it.

[Butch smith]

Put new GP controller on no start I am charging batteries now. What am I missing? It wants to start it just wont catch

[gmctd]

The voltages on the terminals match during WTS, now?

Leave the ECT disconnected, for now - gives you more time to check, and more glow when you try to start.

You should get 9-14 seconds of glow, depending on brand and type of gp and condition of gp harness connectors.

[Butch smith]

The voltages on the terminals match during WTS, now?

Leave the ECT disconnected, for now - gives you more time to check.

You should get 9-14 seconds of glow, depending on brand and type of gp and condition of gp harness connectors.

12 in Battery side and about 10.5 to 11 on the GP side the glow plug light is only stayin on for about 7 seconds. I had the ECT unhooked at the time and the glow plug light would flicker on when I was cranking on it. I thought it would cycle quick a couple of times since the batteries were disconnected for charging put the GP light doesnt seem to be staying on very long
The GP harness looked good I just took all the plastic loom off and looked at wired them replaced the loom.

[gmctd]

Ok - don't quite understand what's with that controller - just a solenoid-driven copper shorting link across copper terminals, just like a starter solenoid.

But, try this - unplug the Optic Sensor connector - six wires - try another start.

It will take a while, because it will be starting in Limp, or Backup Mode, only using the Crank Position Sensor - it should start and run, but with no power.

This is usually done to bleed the fuel system, without PCM trying to control idle and advance and fuel rate.

There are several reasons for it not to start in Backup Mode -

- The short black wire in the FSD harness must be grounded on the top of the Inj Pump.

- Crank Position Sensor is unplugged - 3-wire connector, wire harness across and down between timing cover and p\s pump - or bad wiring to connectors, or CPS is bad.

- Ip drive-gear key is sheared in nose of camshaft - you'll need to pull the waterpump, with it's plate, off the timing cover to see that.

Try Backup Mode ,first.

Backup Mode is also known as long-start mode, because it takes a while for PCM to decide to play along - just like a woman, eh?

Oops! Sorry, Robyn............;)

[Butch smith]

Ok - don't quite understand what's with that controller - just a solenoid-driven copper shorting link across copper terminals, just like a starter solenoid.

But, try this - unplug the Optic Sensor connector - six wires - try another start.

It will take a while, because it will be starting in Limp, or Backup Mode, only using the Crank Position Sensor - it should start and run, but with no power.

This is usually done to bleed the fuel system, without PCM trying to control idle and advance and fuel rate.

There are several reasons for it not to start in Backup Mode -

- The short black wire in the FSD harness must be grounded on the top of the Inj Pump.

- Crank Position Sensor is unplugged - 3-wire connector, wire harness across and down between timing cover and p\s pump - or bad wiring to connectors, or CPS is bad.

- Ip drive-gear key is sheared in nose of camshaft - you'll need to pull the waterpump, with it's plate, off the timing cover to see that.

Try Backup Mode ,first.

Backup Mode is also known as long-start mode, because it takes a while for PCM to decide to play along - just like a woman, eh?

Oops! Sorry, Robyn............;)I will do this tomorrow The PMD/FSD is grounded to the top of the IP. Question if this IP drive gear is sheared off would it still be getting fuel to the injectors? I had the Optical sensor unplugged one before and it would not start, I will try again. Could the CPS go bad just sitting? I will post my findings.

[gmctd]

Yes, on the fuel - injection would be at the wrong time, delayed till the piston is too far down and cylinder temperature is too low to sustain combustion.

Can happen, but it ran for 2 hours, then shut down - seems more electrical, connections or similar.

[Butch smith]

Yes, on the fuel - injection would be at the wrong time, delayed till the piston is too far down and cylinder temperature is too low to sustain combustion.

Can happen, but it ran for 2 hours, then shut down - seems more electrical, connections or similar. I was thinking the same thing it being electrical. Is there a way to test the crankshaft position sensor? I have read every post on here on stalling and or not starting. I tried to move my steeringt column up and down while trying to start and put it in different postitons it made no difference. One thing about it when we figure it out I will have a lot of info to share.

[Butch smith]

Unplugged optical sensor to verify if it will start or not. It did not start. I am going to get a crankshaft position sensor and try that. will let you know if that is it or not.

[JohnC]

Step back and rethink what's going on. Stop throwing parts at it. A Diesel only needs compression and fuel (at the right time) to run. You already verified there was fuel (not water, right?), and you'd have said something if there was no compression.

Are you sure you got the fuel injector lines back on correctly?

Are you sure you got ALL the ground wires at the rear of the passenger's side head back on?

Did you do anything else besides change the heads? (Like timing gears, etc?)

[gmctd]

Butch, I went back and read thru your posts -

1 - you now have 5gal Diesel fuel and 1 quart motor oil in your tank?

2 - did you try removing the OS Filter - rubber rectangle, male plug one end, female opposite end, 6 wires in twisted
pairs ?

3 - only three orange wires in the starter area = 1 for glow plug #8 and 1 for #6, both Teflon insulated, the other is the START wire to the Lift Pump Start Relay, with standard hi-temp insulation.

[Butch smith]

Step back and rethink what's going on. Stop throwing parts at it. A Diesel only needs compression and fuel (at the right time) to run. You already verified there was fuel (not water, right?), and you'd have said something if there was no compression.

Are you sure you got the fuel injector lines back on correctly?

Are you sure you got ALL the ground wires at the rear of the passenger's side head back on?

Did you do anything else besides change the heads? (Like timing gears, etc?) I put the lines on correctly I marked everythign before I took it apart ( I have these little paper wire tags all over my garage floor now

All grounds are back on I have looked fromt he top and the bottom to see if I missed any I had them marked as well to were they go.


I just replaced the heads and the necessarry gaskets.


New fuel in take I did drain the take with a pump and put new fuel in it, I was affraid that since it has sat for so long I may have had some condesation in the fuel. If you read my post ( Book ) ( not meaning to sound like a smart alick) on this thing I did have it running for about two hours at one time right after I put it back to gether and one other time when I replaced the fuel,but only for a short time maybe 20 minutes or so. Thanks for the reply and advice.

[Butch smith]

Butch, I went back and read thru your posts -

1 - you now have 5gal Diesel fuel and 1 quart motor oil in your tank? YEs I was told this to lubricate the pump Is this wrong? My fuel is a browninsh color now should I add more fuel?

2 - did you try removing the OS Filter - rubber rectangle, male plug one end, female opposite end, 6 wires in twisted pairs ? what is the OS filter I did check the inlet connection on the IP and cleaned that screen out.

3 - only three orange wires in the starter area = 1 for glow plug #8 and 1 for #6, both Teflon insulated, the other is the START wire to the Lift Pump Start Relay, with standard hi-temp insulation. I have not touched any wires down by the starter it is turning over good, so I did not want to screw that up.

I would really like to thank all of you for helping me with this issue especially GMCTD.

[gmctd]

No problemo, dude - I owe it to ya.........

About the fuel, the xcess motor oil dilution has lowered the fuel's cetane rating - gonna be really - no, I mean really - hard to start with that mix at 35degF.

Add at least 10 more gallons Diesel, and 16oz Power Service\similar with cetane booster - bleed and prime the filter cannister so it's full of the new mix.

Can prime the Lift Pump by pulling the fuse near the LP START Relay, attach a jumper from the battery + to one of the fuse spades, insert the other to one of the terminals in the fuse holder - one will run the LP, the other won't, and will not damage anything

Pull the six screws from the IP cover, move the cover aside - BE CAREFUL with the OS cable inside - blow the fuel out of the bowl, add some of the fresh brew, replace the cover, incl the FSD ground wire.

BE CAREFUL with the cover - the tiny 'i-ring' seal fits in a machined groove in the cover, and it's sorta fragile.

OR, use this procedure - loosen all the screws till the IP cover is loose, turn the IGN on, wait till the WTS goes off, continue priming the filter cannister for about 5-10secs - that will flush the IP and fuel will run down the valley, out the rear drain, down the belhousing flange, and off the pan rail, maybe drip off the lower flywheel cover, about a cup, or so.

Put cardboard or a drip-pan under the vehicle to catch the fuel.

Retighten the cover screws

FOR SAFETY - you can use hot soapy water to flush the IP and valley - for safety.

Do all that, reconnect the Optic Sensor, leave the ECT disconnected, and try another start.

Then we'll discuss that orange wire - I think it's part of the problem, but the engine should start with the new brew in the system.

[Butch smith]

I was wondering about the fuel and oil. I will get more fuel this afternoon and the additive and try to get this done tonight will let you know. I am having trouble getting to CPS out I took the bolt out and a piece of plastic came off It feel like thei CPS is stuck in there with sucktion or something so I am going to pull the power steering pump so I can see it better.

[gmctd]

That's bad news, dude - you'll need a sheetrock screw\similar - thread it down into the plastic body in the bore, use a vise-grips on the head to work it out.

Problem is, that bore is usually not smooth, more like they finished it with a dull fingernail clipper file, and the o-ring is heat-hardened, so thread the screw about 1/2" into the plastic, then carefully work the CPS body out of the 'cover

That could be an indication of the current symptoms, also.

[Shikaroka]

The part you said about it running for a few minutes, but not accelerate, reminds me a little of the problems I had with mine.

Mine got to a point where it was really hard to start and would run very rough for a while. Once it warmed up a bit, it would idle, but the "gas pedal" did nothing. If I let it idle for a long while, it would gradually let me rev it up a little, but no much. The longer I let it run, the higher it would let me rev it up.

I replaced all 8 injectors and the small wiring harness that goes between the IP and the FSD. And, it has started and run great ever since.
I think I had a few injectors leaking air back into the lines, but I'm not certain.

This may or may not be related to your problems, but it's another possibilty.
I don't remember you saying, but how old are your injectors?

[JohnC]

Sorry, I missed the post about running for 2 hours. However, to me, that just reinforces my feeling you're overlooking something. Why would the CPS be bad? Did you check for codes? It''ll set a code. Can you still conform fuel at the injectors? I seriously doubt if a quart of oil in 5 gallons of fuel would keep it from starting.

Anyhow, hope you get to the bottom of it soon!

[gmctd]

John, the CPS will set the DTC only for missing pulses - the CPS can output multiple pulses for each timing event, which will cause no-start, hard-start, rough running, misfire, etc.

There is no DTC for too many pulses - takes a 'scope to see this type failure.

At 100kmi, I would suggest replacing the CPS as preventive maintenance in any case - the molded plastic module is heat-hardened, brittle and usually multiply-cracked at that point, anyway.

I generally do not suggest replacing, unless known failed, for the reason just posted - the top easily separated from the body, resulting in extra steps required for replacement, usually beyond average owner's capability.

The minimal replacement cost is good ensurance\insurance, imo.

[Butch smith]

That's bad news, dude - you'll need a sheetrock screw\similar - thread it down into the plastic body in the bore, use a vise-grips on the head to work it out.

Problem is, that bore is usually not smooth, more like they finished it with a dull fingernail clipper file, and the o-ring is heat-hardened, so thread the screw about 1/2" into the plastic, then carefully work the CPS body out of the 'cover

That could be an indication of the current symptoms, also. I got home late today I will try to tackle this Tuesday I feel prettty brittle.

[Butch smith]

The part you said about it running for a few minutes, but not accelerate, reminds me a little of the problems I had with mine.

Mine got to a point where it was really hard to start and would run very rough for a while. Once it warmed up a bit, it would idle, but the "gas pedal" did nothing. If I let it idle for a long while, it would gradually let me rev it up a little, but no much. The longer I let it run, the higher it would let me rev it up.

I replaced all 8 injectors and the small wiring harness that goes between the IP and the FSD. And, it has started and run great ever since.
I think I had a few injectors leaking air back into the lines, but I'm not certain.

This may or may not be related to your problems, but it's another possibilty.
I don't remember you saying, but how old are your injectors? NOt sure how old injectors are but I am getting fuel out of the glow plug holes a nice healthy spray. Thanks

[Shikaroka]

NOt sure how old injectors are but I am getting fuel out of the glow plug holes a nice healthy spray. Thanks


Yeh, so was I. They sprayed ok, just leaked air back into the lines when you shut it off.
Most people reccomend replacing them around 80k-100k miles, wether you "think" they are bad or not.

[Butch smith]

No problemo, dude - I owe it to ya.........

About the fuel, the xcess motor oil dilution has lowered the fuel's cetane rating - gonna be really - no, I mean really - hard to start with that mix at 35degF.

Add at least 10 more gallons Diesel, and 16oz Power Service\similar with cetane booster - bleed and prime the filter cannister so it's full of the new mix.

Can prime the Lift Pump by pulling the fuse near the LP START Relay, attach a jumper from the battery + to one of the fuse spades, insert the other to one of the terminals in the fuse holder - one will run the LP, the other won't, and will not damage anything

Pull the six screws from the IP cover, move the cover aside - BE CAREFUL with the OS cable inside - blow the fuel out of the bowl, add some of the fresh brew, replace the cover, incl the FSD ground wire.

BE CAREFUL with the cover - the tiny 'i-ring' seal fits in a machined groove in the cover, and it's sorta fragile.

OR, use this procedure - loosen all the screws till the IP cover is loose, turn the IGN on, wait till the WTS goes off, continue priming the filter cannister for about 5-10secs - that will flush the IP and fuel will run down the valley, out the rear drain, down the belhousing flange, and off the pan rail, maybe drip off the lower flywheel cover, about a cup, or so.

Put cardboard or a drip-pan under the vehicle to catch the fuel.

Retighten the cover screws

FOR SAFETY - you can use hot soapy water to flush the IP and valley - for safety.

Do all that, reconnect the Optic Sensor, leave the ECT disconnected, and try another start.

Then we'll discuss that orange wire - I think it's part of the problem, but the engine should start with the new brew in the system.Did has you exactly said drained fuel bowl ect. still not start. whats with this orange wire. It looks like some one added at one time or another for a ground maybe.

[gmctd]

The harness to each 4-6-8 glow plugs is intact and inplace?

Those are orange teflon-insulated wires for the high turbo heat - if one was pinched between head and block, glow volts would be low, with iffy start.

The Optic Sensor can fail, give a code, and the engine will start on the Crank Position Sensor in Limp Mode.

The Optic Sensor Filter can cause hard-start\no-start - 6-wire rectangular rubber module, inserted between the engine harness and the OS connector - did you remove that for a test?

The engine will start on the CPS with OS disconnected.

The CPS can fail with no pulses, give a code, and won't start.

The CPS can fail with too many pulses, not give a code, and will hard-start and run rough, or not start.

The engine will not start on the OS with CPS disconnected.

That's electrical\electronic.

Leaky\worn injectors will cause hard start with much white smoke.

Failing Inj Pump will cause hard start, and will cause no start.

Use a small mirror to get the DS4-xxx-xxxxx number from the Stanadayne model number label, rear, facing intake manifold, what color is the label, and is there a small green tag on the top of the IP?

[Butch smith]

The harness to each 4-6-8 glow plugs is intact and inplace? Yes

Those are orange teflon-insulated wires for the high turbo heat - if one was pinched between head and block, glow volts would be low, with iffy start. Do not see them being pinched or anything

The Optic Sensor can fail, give a code, and the engine will start on the Crank Position Sensor in Limp Mode. No codes will recheck

The Optic Sensor Filter can cause hard-start\no-start - 6-wire rectangular rubber module, inserted between the engine harness and the OS connector - did you remove that for a test? I did remove the optical sensor plug no change

The engine will start on the CPS with OS disconnected. Did not start

The CPS can fail with no pulses, give a code, and won't start.

The CPS can fail with too many pulses, not give a code, and will hard-start and run rough, or not start. Replaced with new

The engine will not start on the OS with CPS disconnected.I have both connected at this time

That's electrical\electronic.

Leaky\worn injectors will cause hard start with much white smoke.

Failing Inj Pump will cause hard start, and will cause no start.

Use a small mirror to get the DS4-xxx-xxxxx number from the Stanadayne model number label, rear, facing intake manifold, what color is the label, and is there a small green tag on the top of the IP? I will check the pump this morning and get back to you. I am getting fuel to the injectors and then out throught the glow plug holes when I had to GP's out to test.

[Butch smith]

I will check the pump this morning and get back to you. I am getting fuel to the injectors and then out throught the glow plug holes when I had to GP's out to test. Ok bare with me on this

I did not see a green tag on top on the IP. the tag on the back of the IP is blue, Stanadyne Model # is J* 084831 3433J

Service & MFG # 919588

There is a white paper sticker on it with the numbers 5459 then what looks like a date of 08/25/98 I did not see any DS type numbers

[gmctd]

Ok - that's a blue label DS4-831-5459, ca 1998, so the IP is recent, but still almost 10yrs old.