Local Regs on Bio Diesel

[Stlheadake]

I don't live in one of those subdivisions that tells you what color your car has to be. However, I do live in a fairly old and rigid suburban city. I would like to experiment with making my own Bio-Diesel, but I am certain that just about the time I get it all set up they will shut me down as being hazardous to my neighbors. (I'm sure that the fact that I am not really paying taxes on it shouldn't factor into the equation though)

Has anyone tried or run into this situation? I mean it's just vegetable oil until I mix it correct? I'm sure someone somewhere has a rationale for calling vegetable oil a toxic substance. I don't want to ask, but I don't have a choice, it will have to be stored outdoors in plane sight.

[Duramaster]

Please Please Please

Go to your local GM dealer and ask them what they think of the BIO-DIESEL before you even think of using it! I work exclusively on the D-MAX engines and I have seen nothing good come of using the bio-diesel in the high pressure fuel systems that the D-MAX engine uses. The fuel gels too easily, the filters plug too easily, and the fuel pumps go "SOUTH" too quickly. The bio-diesel is probably great stuff for the old 6.2 and 6.5 diesels (low pressure fuel system) but it is causing toomany problems with the 5.2, 6.6, and the 7.8 D-MAX diesel engines.

[Stlheadake]

Please Please Please

Go to your local GM dealer and ask them what they think of the BIO-DIESEL before you even think of using it! I work exclusively on the D-MAX engines and I have seen nothing good come of using the bio-diesel in the high pressure fuel systems that the D-MAX engine uses. The fuel gels too easily, the filters plug too easily, and the fuel pumps go "SOUTH" too quickly. The bio-diesel is probably great stuff for the old 6.2 and 6.5 diesels (low pressure fuel system) but it is causing toomany problems with the 5.2, 6.6, and the 7.8 D-MAX diesel engines.

Hmmm, how do you really feel? That's good advice! I hadn't considered the high pressure fuel system and the potential problems there. Honestly, I don't have the facilities or really the time to mess with making the stuff.

There's something to be said for reducing the amount of oil we buy, as well as the feeling I get by being self sufficient. But I don't want to do more harm than good!

[baker2acre]

The fuel gels too easily, the filters plug too easily, and the fuel pumps go "SOUTH" too quickly.

Hey Scott....

Great question and one I've been toying with as well. First let me jump into the above quote. Please take this for what it is... an opinion. Although I've read bunches and bunches of articles going back and forth about the benefits and dangers of bio-diesel... I have never actually opened an engine for myself. So, Duramaster please know that I am not trying to say that "you don't know" because you do. If you could follow this up with some of your experiences I think that would be great!

I think most of the above observances from Duramaster has to do with the broad use of the word "bio-diesel." Biodiesel is often used for everything from B20 to B100 to SVO and everything else in between. B serieses uses a ratio of B100 (which is vegi-oil chemically reacted/blended with methynal) and regular dino-diesel. SVO is "Straight Vegi-Oil." There are some around here that blend kerosene and vegi-oil and call it "biodiesel." Around here all that's available commercially is B20.

I've read that B20 is no different than #2 or winter blended dino as far as gelling (mainly because 80% IS #2 or winter blend), and I've had no trouble with it. I haven't heard much about the B100 because of it's inavailability here. SVO will gel at 40*... but then again, it's Straight oil. I think issue is more likely to be water. Especialy in the "less" controled environment of the backyard brewer.

The filters should live just as long in bio or #2. The issue here is that #2 is dirty and likes to leave calling cards behind, thus the need for a filter. B100 has a detergent quality because of it's alcohol content and likes to clean out the fuel tank and lines. Naturally, if a vehicle's life starts out on #2 there will be deposits in the fuel system and when a detergent is added.... the filter gets worked more than normal. If the owner switches frequently, which is often the case because B100 is not at every pump, then contaminants are again reintroduced into the fuel system and the cycle continues. If at all possible, B100 should be used by it's self and regularly. The filters should be changed frequently at first until the grime is removed then at normal intervals. B20 or B50 I feel is just a compomise. It makes me feel like I'm saving the planet while keeping my wallet. In this senario or with B50 or any combo containing petroleum diesel the filter will be catching what is left behind by the petro and cleaned out by the bio. SVO's "dirtiness" is based on whether it's used oil (frier oil) or not and how well it's filtered before use.

I don't know much about the IP failures... but from what I understand B100 is similar in viscosity to #2 and should (in mind oval head) respond to high preasures similarly. The only thing I can thing of is that of the dirtied filters no longer working and the IP being the next in line. Injectors would follow.

To wrap things up I think it would be very difficult to name "biodiesel" as dangerous or bad with our first nowing exactly what is being used.

Scott... one regulatioin you'll need to be carefull of is the one that says it's illegal to run a "meth-lab." Form the prying eyes of a neighbor or a public official (cop) a man buying 50gl drums of methanol to cook biodiesel looks a lot like a man buying the same for "Crystal Meth." Be sure to be upfront and open!! The more obvious, the less chance of a missudrestanding at the "Ok Corral!!" The other is to let the local FD and fire marshal know what's in the shed or garage. They like to know where the explosives are when called to a fire!! :eek: Any other regulations would be at a local level as biodiesel on the homefront is unregulated below a certain amount of production that's for personal use. Here's a great link I've got tucked away that may be of help!
http://www.utahbiodiesel.org/biodiesel_links.html
Good luck!!

[DmaxMaverick]

There should be NO ALCOHOL in the final product of biodiesel. If there is, you are not processing it properly. Methanol is used during the cracking process, then removed if done properly.

A meth lab is very different than a bio lab. The only similarity is both use chemical cracking to convert one base product into a different end product. The processes are very different, and very different chemicals are used. Methanol/ethanol is used for some meth recipes, but not all. Any experienced "cop" would know the difference with very little investigation.

The "solvent" quality found in bioDiesel is also present in the WVO/SVO itself. Both VO and bio have similar solvent qualities.

Correct processing and filtering is the key. If all is done properly, the end product will be free of alcohol, and contain no more than the acceptible amount of water. All Diesel fuel contains water (as does all motor fuels). As long as the concentration is below the acceptible level, it is no problem. Processing, handling and storage will determine the water content.

[baker2acre]

Methanol/ethanol is used for some meth recipes, but not all. Any experienced "cop" would know the difference with very little investigation.

Though you are right, Dmax... you can't always count on an experienced officer being sent to investigate, or an honest neighbor understanding your intentions. It never hurts to cover your bases. ;)

I had the reaction backwards..... I thought the alcohol replaced the glycerin and went with the esters... but it replaces the esters and goes with the glycerin to prevent reversal. I think... man I wish I had a better chem. teacher who didn't "smell" his work so much!! :rolleyes:

[billschall]

Though you are right, Dmax... you can't always count on an experienced officer being sent to investigate, or an honest neighbor understanding your intentions. It never hurts to cover your bases. ;)

I had the reaction backwards..... I thought the alcohol replaced the glycerin and went with the esters... but it replaces the esters and goes with the glycerin to prevent reversal. I think... man I wish I had a better chem. teacher who didn't "smell" his work so much!! :rolleyes:

Baker: the methanol is reacted with SVO or WVO, and using a catalyst (heat & either sodium or potassium hydroxide), in fact does replace the glycerin molecule at the end of the triglyceride with an alcohol molecule thereby creating a "methyl ester." The primary problem with this is that the reaction is usually incomplete meaning that not all of the triglycerides (glycerin & the 3 fatty acid chains) have been "changed." This leaves a little bit of excess methanol floating around in your biodiesel. While some of it settles out with the glycerin at the bottom of the reactor, Dmax is correct in saying that what's left in the biodiesel must be removed before running it.

Scott: not a good idea to store it outside "in plain sight." Just gives people reason to question. Better to keep it indoors, under your hat & in your tank.;) Also not a good idea to stockpile methanol in a drum. Having a small bomb sitting around is what makes people nervous, regardless of your intent with it. Buy what you need for the batch and use it up...

[Duramaster]

Ok..... I will start with I just associated BIO as BIO and there was no other. I didn't realize that there was yet another fuel that you were using (SVO/ WVO). You have to understand where I am coming from though. I work at a dealership............. I have to fix these trucks (that's my job), and it is kind of disturbing when the customer "KNOWINGLY" usese the incorrect fuel. In the case that I am referencing, B-20 when B-5 is all that GM allows. It's not super cold here, but man I had a city truck yesterday with 2209 miles on it and the stupid filter is already plugged. The day before that, another city truck with the same problem. If you have to replace the filter every 2000 miles, that is a little expensive.

I also look at it like this............... 40,000 + dollars for this truck (OUCH) and then lets start experimenting on our daily driver.

So now I have to say "Mr. customer, this truck was engineered to run on a mix of B-5 at the most. It states that in you owners manual". And then they get all mad and pissy about it. And I just have to tell myself that It's not my fault, I'm here to fix the truck.


I hope I didn't disturb the community here. Another poster kind of gave me a tongue lashing about a similar posting that I made. I have just seen too much of the B-20 woes lately and I'm finding out that there is nothing that I can do. Unlike you people in this forum, I have done very little research so I thought that I would start here. I can understand why you want to find an alternative fuel for the diesel truck especially at 3 bucks a gallon. I took a natural gas course not too long ago and they said that you can actuall get a fill station fitted to your home gas line, BUT there are still road taxes involved and naturalgas prices have risen also. So here we go again........ Why go natural gas? LOL:(

[jpoudrier]

I am confused. Duramaster mentioned that the manufacturer does not recommend B20. Yet all 2007 and newer model year vehicles must be running Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel fuel, according to federal law. All of the filling stations in my area that sell Ultra Low Sulphur Fuel are selling B20 Ultra Low Sulphur Fuel. The couple times I did put Low Sulphur Diesel Fuel in my truck I noticed black smoke and a much stronger smell.

[billschall]

I am confused. Duramaster mentioned that the manufacturer does not recommend B20. Yet all 2007 and newer model year vehicles must be running Ultra Low Sulphur Diesel fuel, according to federal law. All of the filling stations in my area that sell Ultra Low Sulphur Fuel are selling B20 Ultra Low Sulphur Fuel. The couple times I did put Low Sulphur Diesel Fuel in my truck I noticed black smoke and a much stronger smell.

B20 is an approved & warranted fuel from several manufacturers, but not all the way across their product line. Meaning that some vehicles and their related purposes fall under the mfg's warranty. (e.g. - the 2007 Dodge Ram for commercial use as well as several VW products used for commercial purposes.)

The problem has been that there was no universal acceptance of oxidation stability with B100.

This all changed at the end of last year when ASTM adopted a test known as the "induction period test method EN-14112" (aka: Rancimat). It was approved by ASTM on December 1, 2006, added to the ASTM Specification for B100 (ASTM D-6751), and published by ASTM sometime in January of this year.

Also early this year, GM announced some "Special Equipment Option" for the 6.6L Duramax engines - but only for fleets and limited to 200 vehicles. At this same conference Mike McGarry (GM's Alternative Fuels Marketing Manager) said that GM is also working to expand B20 capability into the 2008 model line.

So while B20 is currently covered by some warranties, it's acceptance will continually increase with the incorporation of Rancimat in D-6751.

However that doesn't solve your problem with your 2007 - at least not yet. You could always add a gallon of B100 to 20 gallons of dino-diesel to get your B5 blend...

Here's a list of retailers in your area selling biodiesel and it's various blends. (I find it interesting that no one has B5)
http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/showstate.asp?st=TX

[jpoudrier]

Thanks for the info. Dont' find is strange there is no B5 in Austin. This is a very strange city. We are the quickest route out of Texas. :D

Still scared on wether to run it or not. I was talking to somebody today that said the B20 that Shell is selling in my area has been causing problems becasue it was not cleanly manufactured and they used chicken fat.

Someone else told me that Bio-Diesel causes the seals to swell, and if you then switch back to standard Ultra Low Sulphur Fuel they will shrink and begin to leak.

I frequently drive to San Antonio, Dallas, Houston, etc. It is begining to sound like I need an 80 gallon tank, and to manufacture my own fuel. At least then I know what is in it.

[moody]

I believe the seal swelling problem use to come from left over methonal in the biodiesel. most new trucks do not use rubber seals anymore and tygone should not be botherd by it.

[baker2acre]

Baker: ... in fact does replace the glycerin molecule at the end of the triglyceride with an alcohol molecule thereby creating a "methyl ester." ....Dmax is correct in saying that what's left in the biodiesel must be removed before running it.

Ok guys,

Forgive me, I'm trying to catch up.... so Bill & Dmax, the catalyst (heat & or Sod./Pot.Hydroxide) causes the reaction in the Vegi-O seperating esters and glycerin. Now... the methanol molecule bonds to the esters? creating methylesters blocking the glycerin out? Correct?? I've heard the term glycerol. What changes it from glycerin to glycerol? So how's the methanol removed from the esters(bio-diesel)?? Does it just evaporate?? or must it be removed "manually." :confused:

[billschall]

Ok guys,

Forgive me, I'm trying to catch up.... so Bill & Dmax, the catalyst (heat & or Sod./Pot.Hydroxide) causes the reaction in the Vegi-O seperating esters and glycerin. Now... the methanol molecule bonds to the esters? creating methylesters blocking the glycerin out? Correct?? I've heard the term glycerol. What changes it from glycerin to glycerol? So how's the methanol removed from the esters(bio-diesel)?? Does it just evaporate?? or must it be removed "manually." :confused:

No apology necessary Baker. :)

The process of converting WVO to biodiesel is simply a chemical process, or reaction. In order to have a chemical reaction, a catalyst must be used with two chemicals. We start with WVO, which is a triglyceride. A triglyceride is composed three fatty acid chains (thus the "tri" part) bound together at one end of each chain by a molecule of glycerin.

In this reaction, the catalyst along with the second chemical (methanol) causes the glycerin molecule to break off the triglyceride. This 'empty space' is then replaced with a molecule of methanol thus creating the "methyl-ester." The glycerin then falls to the bottom of the tank.

Think of it as an equation where (simply put):
WVO + Methanol + catalyst = biodiesel + glycerin
http://www.esru.strath.ac.uk/EandE/Web_sites/02-03/biofuels/reaction.gif

Glycerin and glycerol are synonymous terms.

Once our reaction is finished, it is rarely complete. This means that there are some molecules of methanol still floating around in our biodiesel - not good for our engines - and must be removed (among other things) before using. There are several ways to remove this excess methanol. I prefer distillation since methanol boils at about 145 degrees fahrenheit at atmospheric pressure (less in a vacuum system), but this MUST be done in an enclosed system. Meth vapors kill...

A really good place to learn about this, at least to start is:
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html

After that the websites and books, especially Josh Tickell's "From The Fryer to the Fuel Tank", which is an excellent read.

But feel free to ask as many questions as you like - I've been studying this for quite awhile now.

[Subzilla]

Be very careful with what you read on the Journey to Forever website. He has quite a bit of inaccurate info. Do not follow his recipes for making the BD as he uses the same amount of catalyst for all oil no matter what it titrates at. IMO, the better site is http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/index.php

and the associated forum

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=cfrm&s=447609751

I learned all of my stuff here and still have a lot to learn. I haven't quite mastered it as much as Bill! I've been making the stuff since last fall for my old 6.2's. I had a few clogged filters but that's more because of the BD cleaning out 20 years of crud from the tank/lines. Once they're clean, that shouldn't be a problem.

[billschall]

Both are excellent sites SubZ, and lord knows I've spent hours trolling around them. I agree with your caution on JTF's site for recipes. I merely suggested JTF as a good place to start whetting one's appetite for the Golden Brew.

[baker2acre]

Great!!! Thanks a lot Bill and Subz!!!

I think I've got it now, but for sure will do heaps more readings! :D
The "Glycer ol" was throwing me for a loop. :rolleyes: Has anyone made a recovery system for the methanol when distilling?? Could it be "re-used" if recovered?

[billschall]

Has anyone made a recovery system for the methanol when distilling?? Could it be "re-used" if recovered?

working on a design similar to this (http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/90%20litre%20reactor.html)

... but with me own mods of course.;)

And yes, if it's distilled properly, it is supposedly reusable.

[tedtobler]

Went to you the link you supplied. I have been making bio diesel for couple of years. We are a very simple setup, as matter of fact we do not even titrate any longer because the numbers have been static for so long for the oil we use. I am interested in the design (pictures) you provided.

We avoided plastics and copper but they are both used in the picture. I was under the impression that PVC and copper were bad choices for bio diesel production parts. I assume that you have had different experance. Do they last long?

[mschuyler]

Go to your local GM dealer and ask them what they think of the BIO-DIESEL before you even think of using it!

I hear what you're saying. I'm not arguing, just not understanding. As far as gel point: Got it. No issues. As far as filters clogging. You said one was on an engine with 2,000+ miles. What clogged it? I mean, if you start using Bio-D on a new engine, there aren't any deposits left from dino-diesel over the years to break loose, This must mean that the bio-D itself has particulate matter that clogs the filters. Comments there? I have a friend who used bio-d in an old Mercedes diesel, and the filters clogged several times. Of coursem the car had 200K miles on it.

Also, I'm trying to figure out what is different about bio-D versus dino in terms of viscosity that might be an issue in a high pressure system. I found specs on two points: Specific Gravity of Bio=0.87-0.89. SG of Dino = .82-1.08. Kinematic viscosity of Bio=3.7-5.8. Viscosity of Dino=2-6. In both cases the bio-d numbers fit inside the greater dino number variations. As far as I know, 'viscosity' is a measurement of 'thickness," Right? Is there another measurement that shows bio-d to be way out of line from dino?

Any info appreciated. I'm really trying to understand what the differences are here.

[Mark Rinker]

Let me know when one of the tree huggers comes up with a way to brew diesel from scrap wood.

I'll stop tossing all the dunnage (sp?) that goes under the steel and poly pipe I haul for a living, and drag it home to make tomorrow's go-juice!

[Dakster]

I read on the dodge forums that the high pressure fuel lines causes the fuel to plasticize and messes up the injectors. However, I have no proof and would like to see a motor than has been run 100k miles of B-100 torn apart and looked at to compare to another engine run solely on dino diesel.

I would like to make Bio-D and I have a source for WVO that would give me 10 gal a week. Having some problems locating methanol locally. The lye is easy as it can be shipped easily.

However, nothing is worth messing up a 16k+ motor, so.... I would only run it at b5 level after I got good enough at it to pass ASTM specs. Yes, I would give up the initial savings by paying to get it tested.

We don't even run winter blend fuel here, so I am not worried about gelling. I can only remember 1 day where it got to 40 degrees last year.