Kaput!

[JSteward]

Worst case scenerio I think :eek:

Here's the breakdown:
1. Truck running great.
2. Noticed my oil pressure was low. Checked oil, and added 2 quarts.
3. Went next day to get oil changed.
4. "Plains Tire" said there was a slight drip around the plug and they added a new gasket around the plug.

5. To make sure the oil leak had stopped, 4 days after the oil was changed, I checked the oil level... just being cautious. To my amazement, the oil level was halfway up the dipstick!!!

6. Took it the next day to get the excess oil drained out. Turns out they had charged me for 10 quarts when it only took 7. After a hastle, got a refund on the 3 quarts.

7. Noticed a weird sound coming from underneath the front somewhere that sounded like a loose heat shield or something. The sound would come and go and seemed only distinct at a certain resonance that was just barelly above idle. Acutally sounded like a rock in a coffee can being shaken. Not real loud; but noticable. Could not find the source; thought maybe it had been there the whole time, and that I was only hearing it now because I was being overly sensitive about potential problems relating to the incident.

8. Two days later, I'm going down the road, go to pass, and heard a sound like two empty coke cans smashing together; at the same instant, the oil pressure dropped to 0, and the truck died. It was running perfect up until that instant. There was some oil on the interstate, but no big puddle. Oil level was extremely low.

9. Tried to crank, and engine barely turned over as if the batteries were too week (batts were good and alt. was new). I had it towed to a mechanic shop that will probably take a couple weeks to diagnose.

Can running that much oil cause the damage? If it locks up from lack of oil is it going to be instantanous or would it run strange beforehand?

I'm hoping I can relate this to having too much oil.

What are your opinions?

Thanks,
Jason

[Mark Rinker]

Sorry to hear of the problems. Have the shop drop the pan and inspect the main webs, bearings, and crankshaft.

If you end up with a cracked block, and/or broken crank - save yourself (and the oil change shop) the anguish and move on to repowering or replacing your truck. This has nothing to do with the oil overfill, and was probably underway when you noticed the low oil level before the service.

If your oil pump is shot, you may well have a valid reason to ask the repair shop to get out their checkbook.

The 'two coke cans rubbing together' is probably a bottom end failure...I have owned two 1994 K3500s that suffered that fate - one at 123K miles and the other at about 150K.

[JSteward]

The 'two coke cans rubbing together' is probably a bottom end failure...I have owned two 1994 K3500s that suffered that fate - one at 123K miles and the other at about 150K.

It wasn't a "rubbing" sound. It was like a smash... or a pow. It happened as soon as the truck downshifted and RPM's started up. What exactly is "bottom end failure"?

The truck was in great shape. I got an awsome deal on it with relatively low miles. Are you suggesting it is usually best to replace the truck instead of replacing the motor? What kind of cost should I expect to run into (average) if I have the motor replaced due to a cracked block.

Thank you for the info.

[Mark Rinker]

'Bottom end failure' meaning at the bottom of the engine - crankshaft broken, main bearing spun, etc. From the sound of it, you have the classic broken crankshaft that results from cracked block webs. Thats the grinding noise.

If you do the work yourself, you could repower with a used engine for as little as 4K and your time. Take it to a dealer and drop it off, plan on 12K. Everything else possible inbetween these numbers.

I paid about 7K total to swap in a 60K mile engine from a 1998. It could have been done cheaper, but we replaced and upgraded alot while it was apart. By purchasing this engine, we got the 2 thermostat cooling mods, GM-8 turbo, updated injection pump, etc.

Best of luck to you.

[Robyn]

This situation is traumatic I know, been there done that.

The results of the post mortem needs to be in first.

I would forgo the shop and yank the engine out yourself.

If the engine is trash I would not go the used engine route at least not just swapping in a used one.

See what happened first and then go from there.

I good used engine for parts and then build a fresh power plant up and drop that back in.

The folks here can help a lot.

Just did this myself back last spring.
Mine was not a catastrophic failure but it was a rebuild on the engine.

Robyn

[JSteward]

Got word from the mechanic today. He got the engine to start. Said a rod is blown.

Here's what I see as my options... what sounds good to the experienced members?

Said there was no way to know whether the crank shaft or cylinders have been damaged nor whether the block has cracked without taking the engine out and going into it. $$$ that could be a waste.

If I found a used engine, they can take the old one out and replace it with the used for $850 labor. I don't know how much I can get a used engine for? I could also buy a rebuilt or a new one, but I hate to foot put out that kinda cash. I can't do this myself. I do not have the time. I'm working 1500mi away from home at 60 hours per week.

Sell the truck with the bad motor for parts... I wonder how much I could sell my truck for with a bad engine? ...and buy a used one or sell my soul to fund buying a new one.

I like my truck, everything else seems to be in perfect order. I'd kind of like to have them go into the engine and see if it can be salvaged considering the truck is perfect for my profession, but I don't know what to do. :o

OPINIONS?

-Jason

[JSteward]

The mechanic said it was probably related to the oil change issue, but he really didn't know. He said he saw no leaks from the block or any signs that the oil leaked out. This is odd because there was oil on the side of the interstate.... Mechanic said he hasn't seen this kind of problem from too much oil, but said he doesn't see that many 6.5L trucks and each motor has its own characteristics.

I wonder how I could get this attributed to the oil change place? At this point, I can't get the shop to testify that they are definately the cause. But he did say there was no external leaks. Perhaps they drained too much oil? Anyone have a similar situation that lead to an oil change place footing the bill on engine replacement from their screwup?

[65TD]

If your claim is that they drained too much oil your gonna have a hard time.

Driving around long enough to run out of oil is going to be very difficult to place blame.

Oil was either leaking or burning. Two days of running means it's possible for an engine using oil to run out.

You had oil pressure when you took it out.


If your claim is that they damaged it by overfilling the oil you have a case. You will need to prove it. Sounds like you have the proof of the overfill in your possession. Now you need to prove it caused the damage.


The owners manual should be enough proof of damage by overfill.

[Robyn]

Overfill is not really going to do any serious damage.
These engines will generally not have an issue with a little extra oil.
Too much oil is not going to cause a rod to go away.
Could cause some excess oil pull over into the turbo intake area and possibly some leaks, MAYBE.
I think it was just your turn in the barrel.
when a rod bearing goes it usually takes one of two forms, either it breakes and goes out the side or it can just lose the bearing and beat the crank and the rod to pieces.

My best guess without seeing it is the engines toast.
Start looking for a buildable unit that you can buy and the seller will gaurantee the crank and block to be crack free.
Your heads may still be good as will most likely the injectors and IP and of course the accessories.

Find a good useable engine and yank it apart and freshen it up, install all your peripherals and your good to go.

You can use quite a wide range of year models as long as you have one that has the place for the crank sensor up front. Your IP and injectors will work as will all your brackets and accessories.

Find a good 599 engine thats intact and your set.

Hope this offers some solace

Robyn


I had the folks at the truck shop put an extra gallon in my Cat a couple times and it could have cared less.
Mine holds 36 quarts and if the engine has a hydraulic retarder it gets 40 quarts.
Mine has a Jake so it gets only 36
Just took twice as long to need any additional oil is all.
Usually uses a gallon between changes, been that way since it was new and never changed.

10,000 between changes on the big boys.

[65TD]

I don't have my manual with me at the moment and I don't have the one for the truck in question. However in every manual I've seen there is something about oil level.

Here is what the 05 Chevy manual says.


'Notice: Do not add too much oil. If the engine has so much oil that the oil level gets above the cross-hatched area that shows the proper operating range, the engine could be damaged.'

[JSteward]

Thanks for the suggestions! I'll try to locate an owner's manual for a '96 and maybe find a lawyer to ponder over it. Yes, I do have the recipt for too much oil with a hand written refund for 3 quarts.

I'm not sure what the 599 engine is. Will a Duramax bolt-up to a '96 frame? Sorry if that is a dumb question.

I found two engines for around $3000. Could you guys take a look at these and let me know what you think... Thanks.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/6-5L-GMC-Chevy-GM-Turbo-Diesel-engine-longblock-141-506_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ003QQitem Z130078037584QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/6-5-Turbo-Diesel-Engine-Long-Block-New-Chevy-GMC-93-

If the above links don't work, maybe you can copy/paste in browser :o

[Robyn]

Doing a D max while not out of the relm of reality is a very costly and entailed process.
I good replacement 6.5 would be a better choice.

A 599 block is the early 6.5 92-94 ( last three digits of the engine casting number)

[Robyn]

Looking over the sites you included.
I would not even consider spending 3grand plus on a long block.

I only spent $1800 on a complete overhaul on my 94 and that included a new set of heads.

You should consider locating a good used engine in your area and then giving it a freshen up.
Craigs list is a great palce to shop.

You dont need a complete for sure as all your peripherals are still good.
The IP, imjectors, wiring, sensors and all the accessories can be bolted onto almost any 6.5 from 92 to 2000 and your good to go.

You should not have a dificult time finding a good foundation to build on.

Oh and I dont think spending any of your hard earned $$$ on an attorney will net you much other than a receipt for your $$$

So very hard to prove that scenario caused the issues at hand.

Good luck

Robyn

[Mark Rinker]

My advice is with Robyn. Move on to the task at hand - repairing or replacing your truck. There is only one thing we can't make more of in life. TIME. Don't waste it feeling like a victim or looking for a payout.

Also, I would strongly consider selling your truck as-is and using the funds as a down payment on a used Duramax. Prices have really come down - you can find trucks with ~150K for mid teens. Example 2WD:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Chevrolet-Silverado-2500-3-4-Ton-2WD-02-CHEVROLET-2500HD-DURAMAX-DIESEL-ALLISON-4X2-CREW-CAB_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ90969QQihZ002QQitem Z120084932865QQrdZ1

The problem with repairing broken 6.5L diesel trucks is the resale value has fallen so low. Unless you desire to drive it forever, it has little trade value against a newer truck. Especially if you have to pay someone else to do the repair or repower for you. If you have the skills and time - then it makes more sense.

Again - my opinion - please don't flame me I love my 6.5 and repowered it as well, but back when you couldn't touch any Duramax under 30K.

[jspringator]

Take a look at what these 6.5's are fetching on E-Bay. I would guess it would have to run to sell it, but maybe not. I got $7,500 for a Sub with 205,000 miles. Original engine. I was very pleased. The Subs have achieved a cult like following, which has really helped their value when advertised in a national market. I don't know about the dually trucks. I feel really lucky the engine didn't go out during my ownership. Fear of having what happened to you happen to me is the reason why I bailed. Oh well, V-10's are REAL cheap right now!

[JSteward]

Good replies ALL!.

Its odd that everything is running fine... no warning lights, good oil pressure... get the oil drained and three days later motor goes out.

And like the guy said, the owners manual says "overfilling will damange engine."

I wish I had more time to fool with all this. I work daylight to dark and have no cell coverage in the middle of the desert. I'm a party chief so if I'm not there my crew is shut down.

I paid $9000 for my truck and it only had about 125,000. I'd have to pay twice that for a Duramax. I plan to drive the truck forever and although everyone LIKES luxuary, I prefer durability. I could buy two trucks with 125k miles for the price of one Duramax with same mileage. What would last longer (including upkeep) two 6.5s or one Duramax.
That is the most important question. From everything I've read, the 6.5 is a design flaw that doesn't fit the sterotypical diesel durability mold. I want a million miles out of my truck. Can I get that with a Duramax?



...I'm so stressed out from pressure at work (field engineer) and now this.:eek:

EVERYONE'S comments are GREATLY APPRECIATED! This board is helping me to relieve some stress. If by no other mechanism, it allows me to bounce ideas off people.

I hate to see the truck go to waste because it is in emmaculate condition inside and out. If you didn't know the body style, you'd think you were riding in a 2007. Best $9000 I ever spent (or at least borrowed for).

If I could put $3000 or $4000 more into knowing it will now last, I'd be comfortable with that. But to be quite frank, I don't trust the 6.5L.
But the DMAX is twice as expensive... Guys, really, is it worth it? :o

THANKS SOOO MUCH FOR EVERYONE'S PARTICIPATION IN THE CONVERSATION. It really aleviates my stress knowing there are knowledgable people willing to provide guidence and ideas.

-Jason

[Robyn]

A nice hand built 6.5 that is set up properly should run you for many many thousands of miles.

I bought our 94 Burb with 230K on the clock.
The engine went away at 245K
Lost a head gasket and a few other things were looking a tad shabby too.
I yanked the sucker out and freshened it up and I expect at least another 100K out of it or more.
I would not be too worried about the 6.5.
A buttload of them have run too many miles with little trouble.

Truth is the D max is a better foundation but its still not a gift.
I would not recommend a swap as it is very intense and a lot of work on an early truck.
Good luck

Robyn

[JSteward]

My advice is with Robyn. Move on to the task at hand - repairing or replacing your truck... Don't waste time feeling like a victim or looking for a payout.


Well, Hoss, I'm not looking for a freebie. I never had a problem with the truck. I bring it to a "quick lube," & I have the recipt proving they screwed the oil change up in a way the owner's manual says WILL damage the engine... two days later my damn engine goes. ...looking for a hand out? I'm looking for coverage under their liability insurance.

If someone stole your vehicle, would you not be a victom of a stolen truck?

[JSteward]

A nice hand built 6.5 that is set up properly should run you for many many thousands of miles.

I bought our 94 Burb with 230K on the clock.
The engine went away at 245K
Lost a head gasket and a few other things were looking a tad shabby too.
I yanked the sucker out and freshened it up and I expect at least another 100K out of it or more.
I would not be too worried about the 6.5.
A buttload of them have run too many miles with little trouble.

Truth is the D max is a better foundation but its still not a gift.
I would not recommend a swap as it is very intense and a lot of work on an early truck.
Good luck




Robyn

Maybe I could pay you to hand build me one ;)

[redbird2]

I've read all the posting on this I agree that over filling oil is bad however, I hard pressed to believe that 3 qts for a few day is the base cause of this failure. I have had trucks in the past with 5 or 6 quarts over full due to fuel pump failing fill crank case with oil. not trusting the driver who is to check the oil daily I personal check the oil in the full fleet once a month it was at add mark one month and 5-6 quarts over the next month, drive never said a word until I asked about how truck was running, then he told me it's been kinda slugish last few weeks. So I don't know for sure how long this truck ran with thinned out fuel oil mixture in the July I fixed the fuel pump changed oil truck then had 145,000 then now has 175,000 ans still running fine.

I think you would be wasting your money to get a lawyer involved as he is the only one going to come out ahead on this deal.

Go by and tell the manger what happened see if you can get him to bit on helping to pay for the repair even if he just kicked in some toward the labor of replacing the engine.

now as for replacement engine I agree with Roybn you can put togeather a nice rebuild unit yourself. You may call around to the local machine shops most of them will do the machine work and assemble the engine for a reasonable price. I put togeather a "94" 599 block 2 years ago did all the work myself other than machine work. it ran me just under $2500.00 however it not just freshend up its 20 over new pistons, all new bearings, new cam and lifters, gear drive after first 2000 miles wasn't availabel when did rebuid, 2 new heads, balanced, new oil pump, 40+ injectors, new wrist pin bushings in rods, of corse I had everthing magnafuxed before i had them start the machine work no reason to put all that money in a cracked block. it now has 25,000 on it running strong it pulls a 20 livestock trailer or 32 flat bed to move backhoe,

if you are wonder why i had to rebuild the truck was gas and I converted it to diesel look factory, had at dealership to have abs repaired and several of the tech would believe me that it was orginaly a gas truck until they ran the VIN I'm kinda anal that it has to look stock more of suprise when you mash the pedal and it lights the tires up.

I have trucks now in the fleet with 240,000 on them and these guys don't give a crap they don't own it so start it when it -5 drop and gear and go no warm up

[TurboDiverArt]

What's the price for a new 6.5 from AM General/dealer? They sure do look nice. Stronger blocks, lower compression (20.2:1 I think). Unless they are totally outrageous in price I think this might be a good option if you are planning to keep the truck. For me, since there is no Duramax Suburban, this would be the option I would explore. I don't know if you can buy the engine as a short block and swap over your top-end or it needs to be a long block/complete block.

Anyone know the going prices for new AM General replacement engines?

Art.

[JSteward]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is Craig's List?

Thanks.

[JSteward]

Ok, I've pretty much decided to keep the truck. I believe I've found a good deal on a rebuilt engine. It comes with a 75,000 mile warranty and seems to be at a good price. Here's the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/Reman-92-99-Turbo-GMC-6-5-Diesel-Long-Block-Engine_W0QQitemZ290084782122QQihZ019QQcategoryZ336 15QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

What do you guys think about that deal? I know its not a complete system, but hopefully I'll be able to reuse most of the components I already have to complete it.

I suppose first I'll let the mechanic go through my old engine and determine exactly what is dammaged.....?



-Jason

[a5150nut]

Pardon my ignorance, but what is Craig's List?


It's like ebay. Type it into your browser and have a look.

[DickWells]

Jason: Just ran across an add from Fattymak in the classifieds, right here on the DP! He's got a lot of really good stuff for the 6.5 at more than reasonable prices. If I was in your predicament, I'd be calling him pronto.
Dick :)

[JSteward]

It's like ebay. Type it into your browser and have a look.
...typed it into my browser and got a porn site! :eek:

Then realized I needed to add a "s" instead of Craiglist

-Jason

[a5150nut]

...typed it into my browser and got a porn site! :eek:

Then realized I needed to add a "s" instead of Craiglist

-Jason
Time to run the bug sweeper program and scan with your anti virus program!

[JSteward]

Time to run the bug sweeper program and scan with your anti virus program!

Actually, www.craigslist.com is the place I was looking for. Leave out the "s" and... :eek:

I tried to contact Fattymack, but haven't gotten a response yet.

-Jason

[DickWells]

:) Looks like you have some pretty attractive options. FattyMak? I know Mt. and NJ are a long ways appart, but with your buddy's diesel pick-up, or a small sedan and a utility trailer? It's just that he's got a good list of desireable stuff to help beef up a 6.5.
Then there's the outfit down in GA that puts out a complete brand-new engine. Complete with 4911 mechanical injection, etc. Can't lay my mind or hands on the name at the moment, but someone else here on the DP can tell you.
Then there's the re-build W/75k warrantee. It's enough to make a 6.5 lover's head spin!
Good luck.
Dick:)