Getting ready to spend some money

[NYCEGUY01]

Im about ready for a new motor.
Mine only has 108k on her and still running good.
I want a new AMG block with 18:1 pistons and the splayed mains.
I have some good heads and want to get a new shortblock to go with them.
Will just need Block and rotating assembly as I will reuse my gear drive , cam, IP , sheetmetal etc...
What should I expect to pay for a new foundation ??
Where would YOU go for this ??

I have assembled engines in the past but for this project I would feel better if the bottom end were built by someone else with more experience with the 6.5, my local machine shop when questioned about the project looked like a deer caught in headlights. lol

[Robyn]

Hi
There is nothing mystical about the bottom end on one of these little diesel rats.
If you can build a mouse motor you can build one of these. From the bottom side its no different than any other GM V8
I would snoop around and see if you can get a deal on a new block and then build the sucker up from the ground.
The only real differences on the diesel are the injection system and such.
pretty much a no brainer.
You will pay a bunch of $$$$ to get someone else to build it. Save those $$$ and spend them on goodies to make it better or more powerful.
Best to ya
Robyn

[DmaxMaverick]

AMG blocks are not available to the general public, and can not be ordered as a block only. You can find them, but not through just any supplier. For new, you will have to order through a supplier like Peninsular (TDP Advertiser (http://www.thedieselpage.com/vendors/main.htm)). Be very careful with what you may find at Ebay and the like. If someone were selling a lot of "HMMWV AMG blocks", I'd be very suspicious. They can be had through some government outlets and auctions, but by the time they are tossing these blocks, they will usually be shot (maybe literally). Military maintenance depots reuse healthy engine blocks, so not many of them trickle through. AMG's foundry (Navistar) is turning them out in very limited numbers. Their primary production goes to the military, and a small number to some marine suppliers. Even Peninsular only gets so many.

If anyone has any further info on availabilty, please let us know. I'd like to be wrong with this one.

[NYCEGUY01]

The actual assembly didnt really worry me. Mainly its the machining. If I start from scratch I want the splayed mains and the local guys had at least 10 reasons why I shouldnt run them in a street truck.Probably just didnt want to cut into a fresh block as they have never seen them and dont want to chance sreewing it up.Also I have read about different clearances on dirrerent bore #'s etc...
I didnt know about the block availability but was kinda thinking along the same lines as you,just hoped I was wrong.lol
Seems way too pricey of a project if I have to pay 7k for a longblock.
Even if I sell off the parts I dont need anymore.
My motor has alot of life left in it and I didnt want to tear it out of the truck till I had another one ready to go.
I might have to though.

[rustyk]

I'm putting a new engine in my motorhome. I can't say this with any personal authority, but I too originally wanted the splayed mains (the 6.5L TD works harder constantly in the M/H than most of these engines ever endure).

I considered rebuilts with the splayed mains, but with info gotten here on TDP and from local mechanics familiar with the 6.5L, decided that if I went for new production with the most recent AMG parts, the splayed mains were unnecessary due to improvements in the block design and metallurgy, especially since the ones from Peninsular Engines have 18:1 pistons.

I frankly couldn't see getting a rebuilt with a block of unknown heritage (I don't care how much it's been "tested" - none of the tests account for design flaws of early engines - which my motorhome has - one of the earliest ['91 production] 6.5L TDs). Jasper offered rebuilts, and their position was that they machined for and installed splayed mains "if the block needed them." Whatever that means...

Although I've posted this elsewhere on TDP, here's what I ended up ordering from Peninsular, which came in just north of $9K delivered, of which about $6,600 was the long short block FOB Michigan:

AMG new long short block (with heads, waterpump, and 18:1 pistons)
New hi-pop injectors and upgraded IP (output raised from 190 to 230 HP with new turbo
New non-wastegated turbo (selected due to performance at the RPM at which I usually run on the road)
Phazer gearset
New external oil cooler (the current one is integrated into the radiator)
Mandrel-bent crossover

The old turbo was relatively new (~20K miles), and I'll be offering that for sale here, as it's been checked and refurbed where necessary. The OEM IP (DM2) and injectors will also be offered, as will the heads (checked and surfaced) well as some miscellaneous gaskets, etc., that were acquired when it was thought all that was needed were new head gaskets. Scuffing in four cylinders changed my mind about repairing the old engine.

Anyway, my engine should be finished and shipped tomorrow, after a glitch at Peninsular that delayed it from last week.

[Dvldog8793]

Howdy
I replaced the engine in my 1999 about 2 years ago. I bought the Long block from GM due to the fact that they were giving me 2/3 of the $$$. Also the only place that I could be sure that I was getting a NEW AMG Navistar long block was from GM or Pennsular, there maay have been one other supplier, Idon't recall. When I got my block in the spring of 2005, I called AMG and checked it out. They told me that without a doubt, it was a new manufacture AMG long block, probably made in 2004. This engine was purchased through a local dealer that gives me good-guy prices, NEW AMG long block with GM 3/36,000 warrenty= $6600. The only down fall that I can see is that it is bone stock. The comp ratio of these new long blocks is 20.5 to one, no splayed mains. They are built to a better casting spec and beefed up in the needed areas. I now have 60,000 miles on that motor and not ONE problem.
Hope this helps!
L8r
COnley

[ronniejoe]

Just a comment:

I'll preface this by saying that I'm sure I'll get accused by one member of "tooting my horn" and "trying to sell engines". Not the case.

I think splayed mains are necessary for any 6.5 block, including the AMG/GEP latest upgraded ones, if you plan to work it hard with increased power output. The cracking poll that we did last year showed that most of the engines with cracked blocks were not modified for increased performance. They were used to tow or were otherwise loaded so that the block would flex. Most of them cracked after 100,000 miles.

In a recent discussion with More Power, he mentioned some work that AMG is doing on the engine. I've also heard some of this from other sources and I think this will be covered in the Diesel World article that MP mentioned elsewhere. GEP is developing a higher power version of the engine for the military. To do this, they are adding a full main girdle. Here's a quote from me in another post:


The new AMG, or GEP, blocks are cast by Navistar. GM did cheapen the alloy after the first 6.2 blocks were made to save money.

The 97ish blocks were the first with oil spray piston cooling. They had larger holes for the metering jets to go into. They cracked more readily than the later oil spray blocks.

GM increased the main web thickness, changed the main caps, reduced the size of the outer main bolts on the center three caps and reduced the size of the oil jets and holes (the metering hole is the same, I think). When Navistar took over, they increased the nickel content in the alloy to make the material stronger and much less prone to cracks.

However, GEP is working on an uprated version for the military. They are working on a full girdle similar to what Andrew Ashwill had made for his Power by Design build up. I've heard this from multiple sources.

The cracking poll that I did last year showed that most of the cracks occurred well after 100,000 miles and on trucks that were worked. Power adders didn't seem to have a significant effect since most of the respondents said their trucks were stock. The real determining factor seems to be if you tow heavy on a regular basis.

This suggests that the block needs to be stiffened to keep from flexing when pulling significant loads. Only a full girdle (effectively creating a deep skirt design) or splayed mains will accomplish this. The add on girdles that are sold for these engines are of little (if any) value in my opinion.

That's why I recommend splayed mains even if you are lucky enough to come up with a new GEP block. If I could have found one, I would not have changed anything in my approach.

Yes, I am developing a business building splayed main engines. Even if you do it elsewhere, I recommend splayed mains if you intend to work your engine hard. That includes if you score a new AMG/GEP block. I think this is the only way to know for sure that you won't crack a block. If you want me to do it, that's great. If not, do it somewhere.

[Craig M]

Conley;

So it is a fact the the compression ratio of the current AMG 6.5's is 20.5 to 1! We have seen pistons for sale stating that ratio, but were uncertain if that was the real compression ratio.

[83Blzr62]

What is the full girdle that was made for the power by design project? Does any one have any pictures?

Thanks,
Kyle

[grape]

you'd like my girdle, but the stock oil pan doesn't.............

[ronniejoe]

What is the full girdle that was made for the power by design project? Does any one have any pictures?

Thanks,
Kyle

It's in the 2002 Feature Articles (http://www.thedieselpage.com/back02.htm)book.

[Dvldog8793]

Howdy
The Comp ratio info came direct from AMG tech department.
Ronnie- I agree and probably would have put in Splayed mains and maybe a girdle except that it would have voided the warranty. Thats the same reason why I don't have the phasers in any more. I'll have this truck for a LONG time and when it comes time to replace/rebuild the engine it WILL have a splayed main block, or maybe one of the new AMG HO motors!
L8r
Conley

[NYCEGUY01]

So, is peninsular or GM the only way to get ahold of a new and hopefully improved block? And do I have to buy a whole motor to get it ?

I was hoping to reuse my crank, rods, phazer gears, heads( with a rebuild). and cam/lifters etc...


Basically I just want the new block with all my parts bieng reused except the pistons that will be changed to the 18:1 So I can run more boost than the 12-15 I currently run and push it a little harder without praying she holds together 300 miles away from home.

Right now it pulls my junk great but Im running a bunch of propane.
The goal is to build a new motor that will perform the same or maybe a little better but without the propane.

[ronniejoe]

As has been stated, the only way to get the new block is to purchase a long block. In addition to the sources you mentioned, Kennedy Diesel sells them as well. If you buy a long block, it doesn't make any sense to reuse your components...

[Rondane]

Hi

Will someone please explain what a splayed main is since my technical english isnt the best? Thanks.

Trond.

[ronniejoe]

I've attached a photo of my block just after machining to install the splayed caps. Notice that the outer bolts are canted out at an angle of about 15 deg. They are also located out wider and grab into the stock at the pan rail.

This significantly increases the strength of the bottom end of the block.

For more information, follow the links in my signature.

[rustyk]

Just a comment:

I'll preface this by saying that I'm sure I'll get accused by one member of "tooting my horn" and "trying to sell engines". Not the case.

As a matter of fact, ronniejoe was a prime choice (I like the care, parts, and testing that go into his engines); only the fact he stays busy and the fact he would have needed use my old block (it may be OK, but there's scuffing in four cylinders, at the least, and it hasn't been tested) and suspect heads (which tested out just fine, but I didn't know that at the time), impelled me to go with the Peninsular Engine's part.

If I were rebuilding from a known-good block, I'd have chosen his shop.