Big time electrical woes

[Robyn]

About a week or so ago I noticed on occasion that the starter would not go on the first twist of the key????????
Well I figured it was a solenoid giving up.
Day before yesterday I got in the rig and it would not even click let alone crank. Ok a little fooling around and it finally gave a feeble squeek and evenually started.
Off with the starter and it was painted and most likely a funky rebuilt. I have done little with this rig. The other Burb got all the goodies with its rebuild.
Sent the starter in and have the local rewind shop give it a go. Get it back with a new life and bolt it on. CLICK CLICK BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.
Im pissed to say the least. I start looking things over and finally decide on a new set of cables all around. Done, still CLICK BUZZZZZZZ.
Hmmmmmm Pull hair a screem. Further probing finds that the starter will work if I jump the solenoid terminal to the battery lead. HMMMMMM
Bad ignition switch.. NOPE. Shorted wire, NOPE, After 4 hours of digging I found tucked up under the dash a Hokey anti theft device some previous owner had installed. It was wired to the starter solenoid wire from the IGN switch and had a small relay to send the power to the starter. The little device had a small key like thing that was mounted under the dash and if removed rendered the starter inoperative.
We sufice to say thats gone now and the wiring fixed.
Now to add insult, in the ensuing malay I had succeeded in frying the new starters solenoid but good.
A trip back to the rewind shop and a few bucks later the starter is back on the truck.
I went one better and wired in a relay such as ford used for years along side the right battery to handle the load to the starter solenoid and releaving the stress on the ign switch.
Holy Hummers frank the thing spins fast enough now that I can drive it on the starter "Almost" ;0).
One starter, four battery cables, one extra new solenoid. five trips to town to get stuff, not to mention a real case of the sour attitude.
Adding the relay to the starter circuit using the existing solenoid wire to activate it was a great addition and will really protect the solenoid not to mention give the IGN switch a break.
All this because of some two bit ill concieved poorly installed anti theft device.
Its says diesel on the side I always thought that was the anti theft device. (grinning)
This is a real education in what you can get with a used rig.
Hope this helps some one else here
Robyn

[wthif]

I've been having a problem with my starter (solenoid) getting heat soaked. At least I think that is the problem. Starter makes a clunk/click but doesn't engage. Wait 45 minutes all works well. There is a heat shield on the starter, but I took the time to feel how hot the solenoid gets and I didn't want to keep my fingers on it long. So I'm going to replace it along with battery cables. Haven decided on a gauge for the battery cables yet



I went one better and wired in a relay such as ford used for years along side the right battery to handle the load to the starter solenoid and releaving the stress on the ign switch.

How much stress is on the ing switch? Did you just take the purple wire or what ever it is to activate the relay?


Adding the relay to the starter circuit using the existing solenoid wire to activate it was a great addition and will really protect the solenoid not to mention give the IGN switch a break.

How much will the relay protect the solenoid?

[Robyn]

The solenoid on these rigs pulls a buttload of amp to properly engage.
The solenoid has two (2) set of windings, one to pull the plunger in and one set to hold it. If the power level is down the unit will not pull in properly and you can get a "brown out" condition that runs tha amps right through the roof and toasts the unit.
With a relay and some heavy wire hooked to the battery directly you can get some real high voltage and high amps to the solenoid coil and solve many troubles.
I would get the starter rebuilt by a good rebuild shop and then install the relay. replace the cables too if they have much time on them.
The 6.5 starters dont have a reputation for problems though so you may be seeing a similar issue to mine.
The stock setup runs the purple wire out to the main harness and then splits it to the fuel pump relay "crank circuit" and then to the solenoid. Under some conditions this can draw 20 amps, (#10 wire).
This also pulls directly off the ignition switch (Bad Plan) with the relay the system only sees about 3-4 amps through the switch instead. The whole thing was borderline as far as I am concerned.
Give it a go and let me know.
Just splice into the wire where it would connect to the starter solenoid and run a #10 up to a nice spot by the right battery on the inner fender and connect your main pull to the right battery. The trigger line then runs back down to the solenoid and your set. With this system you hit the solenoid with maximum power over a real short distance and with a switch designed to handle the current draw. The ignition switch was never designed to handle that much load.

[wthif]

What gauge wires do you guys suggest for battery cables?

Also Robyn what gauge wire did you send back down from the relay?


I'm going to be mounting both batteries together on the passenger side and will obviously being re-doing the cables at that point.

[Robyn]

The stock size cables are quite fine its the connectors that suck on some of the aftermarket ones.
The factory cables are soldered on the ends and most aftermarket ones are not.
I ran a number 10 back to the solenoid. The wire size is not the issue here its the fact that all the power to run the solenoid is going through the ignition switch.
The Use of the relay reduces the current through the ignition switch and assures that the solenoid will get full battery voltage and high amperage too.
This will also raise the voltage on the main chassis line during starting too as the solenoid will be fed straight off the battery instead.

[doncannon]

hello all,

robyn: how did you hook up the small wire for the solenoid? did you splice into the one on the starter?

thanks again,
Don

[Robyn]

Extend the solenoid lead going to the starter now and use it to fire the relay.
Run a #10 from the relay back to the starter solenoid. This drops the amperage draw on the ignition switch.
The voltage will also stay higher in the system during cranking as the ignition switch is not powering the huge draw of these solenoids.

[JeepSJ]

I'm also wiring in a Ford type relay for my starter. I have done that to several GM gassers in the past and have been very happy with the results. As Robyn said, use the wire that feeds the starter solenoid to activate the remote solenoid. You will also need to create a small jumper wire (10ga or better) from the heavy lug on the starter to the solenoid terminal on the starter - I think Robyn suggested running it from the remote solenoid back to the starter, but that is unnecessary when you can pick up the power right there at the starter and use a wire that is several inches long versus several feet long. I'll post some pics of mine when I get that far. I just picked up all the cables and ends today and hope to get most, if not all, of the wiring wrapped up this week.

As for new battery cables, I'm using some 2ga welding cable. I like welding cable over the "battery" cable you get at your local parts house because it is extremely flexible and it has a very high strand count (lots of little strands, versus several big strands). Plus I have all the tools to crimp the lugs, both the battery and the starter ends. Then I add shrink tube over the crimps to finish them off. I even found some 8ga and I'm using that for power to the glow plug relay and for my charging circuit.

Since I do custom wiring as a "hobby", I have the tools and skills to make mine a super clean install. I made a set of battery cables for my CJ back in 1988 and they are still going strong. I'd probably be open to building battery cables for the members here, should anyone need a nice custom set.

[Robyn]

Short is better for sure.
On my 94 Burbs I did not want to have the relay hidden down under so I mounted it right behind the right battery on the verticle part of the fender.
Sort of between the air box and the battery. I used the ground screw (Body ground) that the neg cable on that side uses for one screw and drilled a new hole for the other screw.
Works sweet.

[MTTwister]

From how I'm reading this - I think we have different versions here.

Robyn - Basically running something like 10ga wire all over - using the Ford Relay to trigger the Starter Solenoid.

Jeep's version reads as though he's using the Relay to switch the "Battery Cable" to the starter, and using that to also trigger the solenoid.

Am I reading these right? Robyn's sounds easier for me, 'cause I don't have battery cable crimping tools, although the welding wire upgrade sure sounds like a good idea. Maybe later..

[Robyn]

A fresh set of factory cables are adequate to handle the need. The welding cable is definately way kewl. tad overkill but I like more than less, it will give you the edge when the S**T hits the fan and you need the thing to work under the worst conditions.
I am just switching the solenoid wire using the relay to put full battery power through to the solenoid terminal. The + battery cable is still wired just like Ma GM had it.
The whole idea was to take the load off the main wiring harness in the cab and make sure there was plenty of power to pull in the solenoid fast and get it locked.
The solenoids on the 6.5 starters have a two stage coil. The first stage pulls the plunger in fast and then the second stage that uses much less amperage holds the thing untill the Ign switch is released. If the power is a tad weak the solenoid my not lock in hard and the contacts arc, once arcing starts the solenoid is toast and fast. The next thing that happens once you arc up the contacts is you get a "brown out" where the power draw soars and at that point the system melts quickly.
This is just a nice cheap way to fix a problem of under engineering by GM.
Sure when the rigs are new they work fine but after loads of time and miles the system starts to fail a little and there is no room for loss.
Robyn

[Robyn]

A word of caution.
Any crimping of the big cables should be avoided.
If one is going to use welding cable, get the copper eyes and solder the cables into them. One needs to lightly hold the eye in a vice flux up the socket a tad and warm the little beast untill you can flow in (Rosin core) solder, fill the cup full. Flux the stripped cable and insert it in the socket. You may need to add some additional solder to make sure the wire is fully saturated and then let cool. Now you have no place for corosion to set up housekeeping.
You need to keep the propane torch off the cable as the rubber jacket burns up quickly and not only does it look nasty its stinks. A nice touch is the addition of shrink tube over the finished job after you wash the end with warm soapy water to remove the flux. Buff lightly with a wire brush and you have a first class no fail cable end.
Use the top terminal battery ends with the stud on them and then spray the things with red High tack after the connection is secure.
It takes time but it works nice.
Soldering is not done by so many because it takes time and time is money.
The cables on my Western Star are 11 years old and almost 600K down the road and they are still the factory ones. Yup they are soldered.
Just a tid bit.
The best welding cable is the fine wire cored stuff. Lots of tiny weeny strands. very flexible and highly conductive.
Robyn

[wthif]

What I decided to do from Robyn's advice and others is:

[Robyn]

Save yourself the $$ work and grief of relocating the battery. The heavy cables done right will give you all that you will ever need and then you dont mess around with the air filter system. Just do a good top terminal set up and ground both ground cables just as before to the block.
You wont even notice any difference by having the batteries side by side.
If you really wanted to do a perk, install a 3rd tray on the drivers side and couple those two together and then cross over. My big truck has 4 12 volters on one side and 3 on the other and the cables are tied together for the 12 volt system. 3 gel cells would give you a real edge in the cold weather.

Robyn

[wthif]

A big part of why I'm doing this the Bank's air filter setup for my model truck is restrictive and ineffective. When I removed the filter I noticed particles were getting past it. I'm not sure how, but they were and I think this has led to the increased blow-by and oil consumption in my engine. I don't think I would have ever noticed that something was wrong if it wasn't for the coat of oil holding on to little particles in the elbow after the filter. I would like to have a better filter setup before rebuilding my '82 engine which is currently on a stand in the garage.

Also from years of battery acid the trays are like swiss cheese and it is amazing they held a battery at all. Also I have some plans for my new found space on the drives side. Oh I have been running Optima's for a few years now and enjoy them a lot. As for the headache of figuring it all out, the process helps exercise my mind.

[Yukon6.2]

Hi Whitf
I'm in the prosess of cloning your motor,in addition i'm adding an intercooler.
I made a new batery holder because the inter cooler pipe will come thru where the drivers side battery is,and my new air cleaner box will sit where the passenger bat is.
I'm building 90% of my componants,there just isn't any other choice if you want to do anything that isn't stock up here.
Any how i built a batterholder that holds both batterys next to each other on the pass side.I welded two stock trays together with the holders to the outside,one facing front one to the rear.I paced it right on the top of the wheel well,i had to leave room against the fender for the hinge/spring to come down,also the heater hoses will run along side of the fender when finished. I was able to use one of the original brackets to suport the back corner,i first had to cut every thing off the trays.I also had to dent the inner wheel well towards the tire to get the clearence for the baterys under the hood.I also changed my overflow bottle,it now resides next to the heater housing,no A/C so i have more room for changes.
My passenger side of the engine bay will have a airbox, then daul batterys,then my coolent overflow,plus the battery isolator for trailers.After all is relocated,it will tidy up the engine bay,plus leave the drivers side free for elecrical goodies,and possibly a pump for a plow.
Let me know if you are interested in a pic of my new battery holder.

[wthif]

Thanks Yukon 6.2, I've already fab new ones out of angle iron. Just got back from hardware store with the rest of the parts I will need. Sounds like my batteries will be in a similar position as yours. My new aFe air filter arrived while I was at the hardware store so I should have all the pieces to the puzzle now and my truck should be running tonight or tomorrow.

I'll be adding an inter-cooler within the year hopefully. I've found as long as your not towing you can get away with out it.

[trbankii]

[QUOTE=wthif]

[JeepSJ]

WTHIF - any further comments on the Painless Kit? Summit Racing has the 30202 for $24 and the one with the underhood switch for $45. Not exactly sure if I would want the switch or not, but figure with costs of materials and time to put something together the Painless kit would be the better route for me than getting all the parts and making it myself.

All that they have in the "kit" is a Ford style starter relay, a jumper for the two terminals on the starter, and some wire. The starter relay can be sourced at your local auto parts for much less than the $24, and the jumper that is included in the kit is for the gasser starters and will not fit the diesel starter.

I just finished wiring the starter circuit on my Jeep. I used a relay from a mid-80's Ford truck. I used the original "start" wire to trigger the relay. I made a jumper for two terminals on the starter using a short piece of 10ga wire and a couple crimp terminals (actually crimped, soldered and covered in shrink tubing). Even with a single battery, it spins the engine over nicely.

[trbankii]

Thanks for the info, JeepSJ!