View Full Version : Sludge Jar
OK! OK! Don't laugh me off the site! And I have the empirical proof! Unfortunately, I am not able to find the link any more, if I do I will post it. Basically, you make a condensation jar and put it inline of your PCV vacuum. For us dieselers this would be inline with our CDR. I have had one on my daughter's 92 Ford Ranger (my previous truck) for a few months. We have not seen ANY increase in mileage, and did not expect any even though they mentioned you would. And the first time I checked the jar there was about 1/4 cup of very dark oil/fuel. It did NOT smell at all of gas! So, I ignored it. The oil was changed and the other day I happened to check her oil. It was as clean as FRESH oil! And it had been about 1200 miles! Never, never seen that before on that vehicle! I am impressed and will continue to monitor it and report. At the same time, I had put one on my 2005 Dakota (yes, I am selling the Dakota for the Silverado! Anyone want an excellent Dakota!?) with 10K miles and was not impressed but, it is a new engine.
After seeing what it did for the Ranger and seeing how black and how quick my truck's oil goes black, today I put the sludge jar on the Silverado. Again not expecting much. Some black oilly stuff in the tube and hose connections. Started up and checked for vacuum leaks - none - of course, very low vaccum at idle. Now, I start up and drive to work. After 3 miles, the engine quiets down like I have never heard before - down the road and a idle! At idle the engine is quiet and smooth! It is scarry! Something BAD must be about to happen! When I got to work, about 12 miles, I left the engine idling and popped the hood to check for something leaking or broke but, everything was fine - just a smoother, quieter running engine! It will be interesting to see how the truck starts up and runs tonight after work. It has started well in the 6 weeks I have had the truck.
I will continue to monitor the engine operation and the sludge jar. It may be about 6 months before I will know much about the sludge jar since I changed oil about 600 miles ago so, about 2400 to go before a change. May be I will be able to tell if the oil gets any blacker/thicker than it is now. But I am VERY pleasantly surprised with the results so far - smoother/quieter!
Well, I feel like a real dummy! I realized that I had another variable in the smoother/quieter ballgame. The night before I had filled her up with Citgo diesel instead of the usual BP diesel!? Anyone got ideas on why Citgo diesel would cause my truck to run smoother/quieter than BP diesel? I surely thought that quality fuel like BP would be better that Citgo!?
I have got to work on the "sludge jar". Not working on these diesels with their VERY low vacuum at idle. I will post an update in the future when I have some success. I think a more descriptive name for this device would be Crankcase Vapor Condenser - more to the point of what it actually does.
Well, The night before I had filled her up with Citgo diesel instead of the usual BP diesel!? Anyone got ideas on why Citgo diesel would cause my truck to run smoother/quieter than BP diesel? I surely thought that quality fuel like BP would be better that Citgo!?
I am no expert on fuel refining but there are only so many refineries and they are regionally distributed. Probably the same base fuel. But.... there are big differences in fuel turn over, distributor quality control, bulk additives, tank maintenance, filter maintenance, truck tank maintenance, clean out and mixing of fuel blends etc. I have heard lots of rumors of fuel blends etc. Like a few gallons of heating oil left in a tanker can contaminate a few tanker fulls of ultra low sulfer diesel.
Hi volume truck stop diesel is most recommended but many chains have been mediocre for me. I use to know a smaller station (a Kangaroo small chain) that had a few fleet contracts that had the best performing fuel in town. And it wasn't a big "truck stop". I think they just had a smaller tank and better turn over with a good pump / filter / bulk addititive maintenance program. I even tried to talk to a major truck stop chain (Pilot) and learn a bit but they were not very informative or helpful.
I like to find stations like the Kangaroo and stick with them even if it means a little scheduling of fill up and top offs.
It usually takes a few tank fulls to really determine consistent quality but 1 bad tank can get you at any time.
Hubert, thanks. I also had read that as well but, just did not think it would apply to a quality fuel station!? Now I know.
I tried to post pictures but I will have to reduce the size yet some more before they will upload. Stay posted!
I had to modifiy the device for the diesel since a diesel engine does not develop vacuum like a gaser does with a PCV valve. With this device I am pulling about 0.5in WC at idle with a stock filter.
It will be about 1800 more miles before I change oil so, we will have to wait until then to see if this condensor keeps my diesel oil clean like it is on my 92 Ford Ranger. The Ranger now has about 1800 miles on the oil and it is only slightly discolored - usually quite black by then!
In about 500 miles I will open this container to see what is in it and post an update. This will be an indication also of how well it will work in keeping the oil clean. Until then, hold your breath!
Ok, here are the pictures. Picture 1 is the parts. Picture 2 is the parts assembled. Picture 3 is the installation. Picture 4 is the current color of my oil.
Thats how my oil looks after 5 minutes on fresh oil change. The oil cooler and lines plus remote filter lines holds probably a little over a quart of dirty oil. Then it gets blacker. Best thing to lighten the oil color is a bypass filter system and or soot sucker centrifugal filter.
I think you need to add a longer tube to the input port through top maybe to near the bottom of the canister and perforate it with alot of small holes several inches down the tube near the bottom but leave it solid wall at the top. As it looks now the input port and output port are too close and will flow to each other too easy.
What is suppose to causes the oil/contamination to drop out gravity?
Hubert, thanks for your interest and suggestions - got your email too. I think it takes my oil 2/300 miles before it looks black again. I have some black immediately after changing for the reasons you said above. I change the oil myself and drain it hot after sitting for app. 15 min. to drain down. I believe I get a better drain this way. If I let someone else change it, they change it cold and without the drain down.
I did not want to put the input tube too low because it might get into the condensate as it accumulates and the CDR vacuum is very low - 0.5" to 1.0" WC at idle. I know I will have some accumulation but, not sure how much right now. I want to go 3000 to 6000 miles on an oil change (with synthetic oil) and dump the contents of the CVC (Crankcase Vapor Condensor) at the same time. I think it would help if the output tube was about 1-2" lower to give the vapors a chance to cool and drop before being sucked into the output tube. I put a screen material between the input and output to give the vapor something to condense on. I can/may add another layer to that.
Cooling and condensation are what will make the vapor drop out (this is why I left the riser tube from the CDR to the condensor). It may help to put some steel wool or steel scrubbing material into the input and/or output tube then, would need to check the CDR vacuum again. In a gaser, the vacumm is high enough that you can use a column of BBs for condensation purposes. Tried this first in the diesel but it ws too restrictive and at idle I had crankcase PRESSURE instead of a "baby's breath" of vacuum.
I already have a better design in mind but, this was quick and cheap. If it works somewhat, I will build the better design:
. 2-3" dia. horizontal tube with a 3/4" copper pipe inside (cooling and condensation)
. lay tube between rocker cover and intake manifold
. internal copper pipe will run the length, 180* bend back to the input where it will be open or with steel wool/steel scrub pad in end
. output will be on opposite end of input with a copper/steel riser to air intake port - more cooling/condensation and will drain back into CVC.
Thanks again for your interest. Maybe you can be the first to test my improved CVC! I will be checking the CVC over the next 1500 miles and if it is condensing some vapors, I will build the improved version as well - unless I think of something better by then. I think it is better to trap/filter this crude out before it gets into the oil than to be trying to filter it out after the fact. As I said before, if it did not burn the first time through why would it the second/third/fourth/etc.!
I change the oil myself and drain it hot after sitting for app. 15 min. to drain down. I believe I get a better drain this way. If I let someone else change it, they change it cold and without the drain down.
I drain mine hot too until there are a few seconds between drips. But I don't like oil to drain out of cooler or other oil out I can't put back in ready to pump/circulate. I really dislike a horizontal oil filter so I remote mounted mine vertical and fill the filters with oil when I reinstall. I think its important to minimize no oil pressure time on start up after changes. When I let it drain longer it takes longer for oil pressure to come up on start up.
Here is an excellent article on oil, filters, antifreeze and gear lube. According to this article from an "expert" we have about 5 min. on startup.
http://www.boss302.com/oil.htm
OK, call me a skeptic, or just slow, but what good does it do to condense anything out of the vapors after they have been pulled from the crankcase? They're headed for the combustion chamber, not the sump!
What am I missing?
Ok, first of all I will say that I do not have any "professional" data on what or why this works. But I can say that I have put one on my 92 Ranger gaser with about 84K miles and it has definitely kept the oil much, much cleaner than it used to be (with 1800 miles so far on the oil). Say what you want but this is what is happening. And I know honey colored oil has to be much better than the same oil black. I feel very confident saying this even without an oil analysis. What will this device do on a diesel? I do not know now and will not for at least a few hundred miles.
Now, I will give an educated guess (SWAG) on what I think is happening. First of all, what is this vapor that we all are sucking from our crankcases, whether a gas engine or diesel? Motor oil? Then you will be adding a lot of motor oil between oil changes. Unburned fuel and carbon from the combustion process? I believe this is what it is more than anything else - carbon and unburned heavy hydrocarbons (hence why our gas or diesel oil turns black). If not then, what is it? And where did it come from? Since these products did not burn the first time in the combustion chamber why will it if we keep cycling it into the combustion chamber over and over and over and.... Instead of this product getting burned or blown out the exhaust, some (or the majority?) ends up in our oil - probably being wiped from the cylinder walls. If this is not the case then, tell me, why our oil turns black? Enginge wear? Our engines would have been completely worn out long ago if this were the case. So, why not condense out these products, that are not going to be burned or blown out, instead of allowing them to be sucked back into the combustion chamber where they end up in our oil?
Before anyone says this is garbage or does not work, remember, I have proof that it does. Do you have proof?
Before anyone says this is garbage or does not work, remember, I have proof that it does. Do you have proof?
No way I can argue with a statement like that!
Since these products did not burn the first time in the combustion chamber why will it if we keep cycling it into the combustion chamber over and over and over and.... Instead of this product getting burned or blown out the exhaust, some (or the majority?) ends up in our oil -
I'm still skeptical. Only a tiny portion of the contents of the combustion chamber ends up in the oil. And, only a tiny portion of the contents is recirculated vapors. I can't imagine it really matters whether it's first generation or not. What's important is the byproducts are being removed from the crankcase and expelled out the tailpipe, burnt or not. Most of the crankcase vapors are made up of water vapor and oil vapor. Carbon and the like does not form a gas and is going to end up in the oil regardless.
Proof or no, I still think we're missing something...
(Gas engines may operate under a different set of rules, I don't know.)
I am skeptical myself. I have seen that it works on my 92 Ranger gaser but I have no idea that it will work on a diesel or not. I was quite pleasantly surprised when I saw the results on my Ranger as well! 2200 miles now on the oil change and only a slight streak of black! And really black "something" trapped in the device. Obviously, on a gaser, all the vapors from the crankcase do not get burned or blown out the exhaust - at least some of it gets into our oil. Some more than others due to engine condition. And my Ranger's engine condition is not all that great.
Again, will this device work on a diesel - I do not know. I am sure I am missing something. I am not able to explain why the device works on my gaser. Diesel is a heavier fuel than gasoline and engine vacuum is not used on the diesel for PCV purposes. We only have a "baby's breath" of vacuum at idle. It is soot from the combustion process that turns our oil black. And when the amount of soot builds up to the point where it overwhelms our oil's additive package ability to keep the soot in suspension then, the soot will clump into larger and larger particles - probably to the size that will do damage to the engine. Hopefully, we change oil before the soot clumps into a size large enough to cause damage.
If this device does not work on my diesel then, I will be adding a bypass filter to catch it. But since it did work so well on my gaser, why not give it a try on my diesel?! What do I have to lose? From what I have read, it is not the oil that "wears out" it is the additive package that gets "overwhelmed" and then fails.
Only time will tell!
TurboDiverArt
09-25-2006, 17:22
I am skeptical myself. I have seen that it works on my 92 Ranger gaser but I have no idea that it will work on a diesel or not. I was quite pleasantly surprised when I saw the results on my Ranger as well! 2200 miles now on the oil change and only a slight streak of black! And really black "something" trapped in the device. Obviously, on a gaser, all the vapors from the crankcase do not get burned or blown out the exhaust - at least some of it gets into our oil. Some more than others due to engine condition. And my Ranger's engine condition is not all that great.
Again, will this device work on a diesel - I do not know. I am sure I am missing something. I am not able to explain why the device works on my gaser. Diesel is a heavier fuel than gasoline and engine vacuum is not used on the diesel for PCV purposes. We only have a "baby's breath" of vacuum at idle. It is soot from the combustion process that turns our oil black. And when the amount of soot builds up to the point where it overwhelms our oil's additive package ability to keep the soot in suspension then, the soot will clump into larger and larger particles - probably to the size that will do damage to the engine. Hopefully, we change oil before the soot clumps into a size large enough to cause damage.
If this device does not work on my diesel then, I will be adding a bypass filter to catch it. But since it did work so well on my gaser, why not give it a try on my diesel?! What do I have to lose? From what I have read, it is not the oil that "wears out" it is the additive package that gets "overwhelmed" and then fails.
Only time will tell!
If you need more vacuum, why not try an electric smog pump? One from an LT1 Camaro, I think they pull like 2-3 inches of vacuum. You can get them at junkyards. I think Caprice's also have one, they are plentiful. I think they are less than $100 new. Just a thought.
Art.
I had been thinking of something like this to condense oil out of the vapor before it ends up puddled in my intercooler! I am not sure how it would keep the rest of my oil cleaner, but it sure would clean up the intercooler and piping!
Adam
Art, the electric smog pump might really be a good idea. I will have to give the present setup some miles before I will know how well it is working. But I think the additional vacuum might really help and an electric smog pump might be the best way to get the vacuum.
Adam, I was not even aware of the possibility of condensed vapors pooling in an intercooler but, then I do not have an intercooler. This makes me wonder about a heater core or evaporator core to cool the vapors before entering the trap along with an electric smog pump for vacuum... This might work really well! Will have to wait to see what works. I have about 1500 miles to go on the present oil before a change. But I should be able to see some condensed vapors in a few hundred.
Thanks for the input guys!
moondoggie
09-30-2006, 06:34
Good Day!
afgunn, JohnC: Maybe you're both right. Try this theory. While the gas engine is running B4 afgunn installed his device, the PCV was passing crankcase vapors back into the intake. What do these vapors consist of? 1) What made it past the rings; 2) oil aerosolled (sp?) by the moving parts inside the engine. Without afgunn's device, these are passed into the intake; with his device, the heavier stuff is condensed into his container. A tiny portion of this thick stuff (normally being returned to the intake to be burned) winds up in the oil. Obviously, most of it will indeed be burned & out the tailpipe; a large portion of what makes it past the rings will again be returned to the intake to be burned again; but maybe a tiny portion winds up puking up the oil. Over lots of miles, this might add up to darker oil.
Don't put too much stock on the level of intake vacuum a gas engine has. The PCV's job is to make sure that only a tiny portion of what the intake vacuum could/would draw from the crankcase is allowed to do so. In other words, the PCV severely restricts how much crankcase gasses can be drawn. And, this I think is only at high manifold vacuum - I think the PCV closes at low manifold vacuum (please correct - I'm sorta into the guessing area here). Upshot: I wouldn't be surprised if the gas engine's highly-restricted flow & the almost wide open diesel flow might not work out to be pretty much the same. Idea: Check the vacuum on the crankcase of your gas engine truck - might help clarify what's going on here.
Blessings!
DA BIG ONE
09-30-2006, 09:27
Is it far fetched to just plumb the cdr into exhaust system, or?
Well, that certainly is a new thought worth considering! You would need to use a vacuum pump or create some type of venturi effect from the exhaust pipe. Seems like you would want to plumb it into the exhaust after the catalytic converter so as not to possibly "poison" it.
For now, I want to stick with the trap I have made and try to refine it. I may have to go to a vacuum pump - I will just have to see. Condensing and trapping out the heavy hydrocarbons (dumping them into the waste oil at oil change time) and allowing the lighter hydrocarbons to recirculate into the combustion chamber where they are burned seems like the best idea - at least for now.
And it is true, thanks for the reminder, that the PCV valve restricts vacuum when the engine is at high vacuum (idle) - the weighted or spring loaded "shuttle" in the PCV valve. Still, I am quite sure a gaser puts more vacuum on the crankcase than our diesel does getting its vacuum from just before the turbo (in my case anyway) - 0.5"WC at idle to 3.75"WC at 2200RPM. Somewhere on this site, relating to the CDR, is a formula to convert from Water Column (WC) to inches of vacuum.
A vacuum pump indeed may be the way to go. With it I would be able to use the same device I am using on my gaser, with a stack of BBs for condensation purposes. Just might have to try this one - next!
You guys are more than welcome to try some of these other options. Do try to keep up posted on how your particulat device works. I will keep everyone posted on how the condenser/trap is working and what mods I have made.
Keep it alive!
As far as I know, PCV systems work by pulling air from the crankcase through the PCV valve while allowing fresh air in somewhere else, from the air cleaner. The vacuum actually applied to the crankcase is little to none. The PCV valve is there to keep the vapors from messing up the air-fuel ratio.
With the CDR, there is no fresh air into the crankcase, only blowby. The CDR is there to limit the amount of vacuum applied to the crankcase. Why? So you don't start sucking air and dirt in through the seals. If you put a vacuum pump after the CDR, it will have no effect. If you put it before you'll cause trouble, IMHO.
Rattle snake oil is the best one I've found...
garre1tt
10-01-2006, 12:34
I just had to chime in and say that I have seen advertisements for a patented version of this.
The company was out of Montana up by Flathead lake. They had a full page pull out advertisement in the Great Falls paper a couple of years ago. It had me convinced and I tried to contact the company but got no response.
They used a media to help purify the gasses. Made sense to me that the cleaner the air fuel mixture the better the combustion.
Maybe some of the folks up in Montana know of the place?
Michael D
By mistake (my daughter's mistake) HER '92 Ranger went 7000 miles on the last oil change and the oil on the dip stick was still only a dark honey color. There was about 1 cup of really black oil? in the sludge jar with some moisture and the beginning of sludge in the bottom. I am convinced - at least on a older gaser.
My brother that has the Silverado diesel now is about 2 1/2 hours away and I see him every few months. So, I will keep up with the sludge jar on it as well. The last time I checked, after 3000 miles, there was about 2 tablespoons of really black oil? in it and the motor oil was definitely staying cleaner than before but not as clean as the '92 Ranger gaser. But clean enough to make it worthwhile.
The condenser container can be made with 1 short piece of 4" PVC, 1 4" end cap and 1 4" screw in cleanout. Then drill holes for the in/out hose fittings and make the BB condenser. 3" PVC could be used as well since there does not seem to be so much collecting with a diesel.
moondoggie
09-14-2009, 10:51
Good Day!
Any news? It would sure be interesting...
I don't know how we missed it back when this topic got started, but of course the big reason diesel oil gets black is because of the sulfur in the fuel. Even though the sulful in diesel is now greatly reduced, it's still a big contributor.
I found that when I switched to synthetic oil (Rotella 5W-40), it takes longer to get dark. I attributed this to reduced blow-by due to better cylinder lubrication, but of course this is only conjecture.
Blessings!
More Power
09-14-2009, 15:28
Maybe some of the folks up in Montana know of the place?
Michael D
Yes, I read about the sludge thingy here in MT some time ago.... Personally, I wouldn't waste my time or money on it. Diesel motor oil gets dark because of an accumulation of soot. Diesel fuel these days is usually less than 10-parts per million sulfur. It's not sulfur than darkens motor oil used in diesel engines.
I've taken aparts enough high mileage 6.2/6.5 diesels to know that if you change oil every 3000 miles or so, there'll be little to no oil related buildup anywhere inside the engine. The 6.5 I pulled down a while back had zero accumulation. The 6.2/6.5 needs its oil changed about every 3,000 miles because of the gradual soot accumulation in the oil.
The Delvac 1 used in my 2001 Duramax stays honey colored over 7-8K miles at its yearly service. The Castrol synthetic used in my daughter's 2005 Chevy Equinox's V-6 stays honey colored through its yearly service as well. Not doing anything special otherwise.
Jim
I doubt it will lighten the color of the oil. But how about keeping the intake appreciably cleaner? Not that big of deal on a stock truck but I imagine helps with intercooler.
Might help reduce any tendancy to build up crud/carbon on intake valves???
But I guess good filter and proper working CDR does ok but poor air filter and CDR might benefit???
I doubt it will lighten the color of the oil. But how about keeping the intake appreciably cleaner? Not that big of deal on a stock truck but I imagine helps with intercooler.
Might help reduce any tendancy to build up crud/carbon on intake valves???
But I guess good filter and proper working CDR does ok but poor air filter and CDR might benefit???
I agree with Jim, the newer engines seem to stay much cleaner. My 2001 Montana (84K miles), 2004 Dakota (104K miles) and my 2002 Ram CTD (113K miles) all keep the oil clean for 5K+ oil changes. Must be tighter specs and/or better compression rings, less wear, better oils? I think how well it would work would depend on the age and condition of the engine. If you have some to more blowby, I think it would help.
The 98 and 93 in the sig below both collected some heavy black ?what? in the sludge jar but I did not keep either long enough to KNOW what the real story would be. The 98 I flushed with engine flush before I changed the oil and added the sludge jar and it was staying clean which it had never done before. BUT, was that due to the engine flush or the slude jar? The sludge jar was collecting black something!
IIRC, the 98 had a fitting for the CDR in the turbo tubing BETWEEN the air filter and turbo so, no filtering just straight into the turbo. The 93 CDR was connected directly into the intake manifold and when I had it off I washed a lot of black crud out of the intake.
I put a sludge jar on my 92 Ranger gaser and it kept the oil clean between 5K oil changes which it NEVER did before. About 1/2 cup of sludge was in the bottom of the jar at 5K. 1/2 of this sludge was brown with the other 1/2 on top being BLACK. It definitely worked for this gaser.
I have put a sludge jar on the Dodge because, from the factory, the breather tube just goes into a jar with some fumes/oil getting on the engine, radiator, etc., etc. And then drip onto your driveway!?:( And you have to empty the jar at every oil change - may as well empty a sludge jar!
Hope some of this helps.
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