Will not start a second time

[tedtobler]

1995 2500 Chevy Silverado 6.5TD

[john8662]

When you mentioned that the mechanic replaced the inline fuel filter, do you mean the fuel filter on the back of the engine?

The only two filters on these trucks are the fuel water separator/filter on the back of the engine and the sock in the fuel tank.

There isn't an inline fuel filter. Although, there is a round cylinder looking item in the exact place where a fuel filter goes on an gas model, it's the electric fuel lift pump.

If a filter was installed in it's place (don't really know if that's possible) you could sure have some running problems.

Start with replacing the fuel filter on the engine, and then priming the filter itself. To do this open the top nozzle on the filter housing, then put the transmission in gear (not running) and turn the key to start, which will engage the pump, not the starter motor to help prime the fuel system. Close the cap when no more air bubbles come out.

This can also be the famous FSD/PMD that is failing on the injection pump. The good news is that you won't have to replace the whole injection pump, do a search here on the forums in the 6.5 section for FSD/PMD or no start or stalling, it's enough to make you eyes sore.

Do you have any engine codes? Is your Service Engine Soon (SES) light on?

J

[tedtobler]

Sorry about the misinformation. I replaced the inline fuel pump. The one that is attached to the frame under the driver side seat.

I have purged the fuel line several times and the fuel filter has only 30 miles on it. I will replace it tonight to see how it works.

Yes the Service engine light is on.

What kind of engine codes are we talking about, I am a bit ignorant here.

The FSD/PMD part is expensive $240-$350 new and $80 on ebay (used). Is there a way to check this unit to determine if it is working?

[Hubert]

No way to test PMD/FSD. Lots and lots of posts on that they fail all kinds of ways.

Verify fuel to IP first new clean filter (read posts on good filter change directions don't just follow the owner manual) and working oil pressure switch. You can also loosen an injector line at the injector and see if it weeps fuel trying to crank after several seconds to determine if its a no injected fuel issue. If no fuel to injectors tap on fuel shut off solenoid while cranking. And gently tap on or as near as possible to PMD to see if it will start. Clean and tighten all battery cables and grounds especially ground back near auto tranny dipstick. Maybe add another ground strap to this node.

How many miles and condition of truck. Post back how its going.

[Hubert]

You'll have to get the "codes" - On Board Diagnostic (OBD) trouble shooting codes. Can hook up to a scanner or since its pre 96 I think its OBD-1 and there is a paperclip trick. I think Kennedydiesel.com has a tip for that.

Post back findings and codes. How many miles and condition of truck etc.

[john8662]

Yes, the diagnostic trouble codes will be helpfull to diagnose the problem.

Check this link out and login with the information you got with your membership to access.

http://www.thedieselpage.com/members/trblcode.htm

If you don't have the full membership to the content section you can apply online, it's highly recommended, a mass of valuable information and cool articles every month!

J

[tedtobler]

Got the codes 36 and 96: 36 is - Injectio Pulse Width Error (response time long)

96 is - #6 Cylinder balance Fault


Well I have that. I did the paper clip test and it did the 3 flashes 6 flashes three times and than the 9 flashes 6 flashes.

I have no idea what a cylinder balance fault or an injection pulse with error is.

The truck is in pretty good shape. It has 260,000 miles on it.

[Robyn]

Cyinder ballance and the pulse width error codes point to an IP issue.
With the no start troubles I am thinking you got this thing beacause whoever had it did not want to buy an IP
Have the things scaned with a tech tool probably time for a pump.

[tedtobler]

So.......IP = Injector Pumps ? I bet they are really inexpensive for my truck and easy to put on. I cant wait $39.95 and 15 minutes, then I can hang out for the rest of the weekend.


OK I called around and John at Kennedy Diesel suggested I try new Glow plugs first. He was amazingly helpful. I am running 60Gs currently, he suggested "Quick Heat Glow Plugs". That seems to be the most cost effective choice. I have 60G in there now. I would like purchase locally only because than I can work on the truck tonight, if I do not have any luck by Sunday I will mail order them from Kennedy on Monday.

[Robyn]

Once the engine is warmed up you should not need glow plugs.
If you are getting the codes you talked of earlier this is far more than glow plugs.
try disconnecting the batteries for a minute to clear all codes and then rerun the beast. If you still get codes you got IP issues. This is not a cheap job and not 15 minutes either but is not an insurmountable obstacle. With the helping advice of these fine folks here at TDP it can be fairly easy to do.
The cost to get the pump redone can be somewhat spendy but a nice truck is worth the expense.
Keep us posted

[Hubert]

Might want to double/triple/ or heavy dose of stanadyne performance formula and add some FPPF cetane improver to fuel.

No you can't fix old age in a can but ... Thats what the other guy might have done hopped up the fuel and cleared codes then sold it???? As the additives were diluted or if you bought some lower quality fuel the problem came back. That many miles all bets are off. Might have just been some little change pushed it over the edge and you were just unlucky. Diesels last a long time but there is more maintenance and sometimes fairly big relpacements (ie IP, injectors etc) that are required that you don't really hear about when talking about diesel engine longevity until you get to know them.

[tedtobler]

Today:

1. Reset everything by disconnecting the battery
2. Ran the diagnastic paperclip and got a 36 and a 99
3. added cetine to the fuel
4. drove it for 30 minutes
5. Cracked the injector fuel line to make sure the fuel was pumping into the injector. It was.

Here are the results:

First start was rough, I had to rev it up a bit. Puff of white smoke on start but ran fine. It also had a little black smoke when I floored it getting on the highway. Other than that ran like a champ. Turned truck off. checked the injector line, I turned it over to watch how the fuel came out and the darn thing started. Turned it off hooked injector back up and went for a ride. Stoped at a friends house for 20 mintues, the truck started again, than stalled, than started. Made it home. I am still not confident to turn it off somewhere that I do not have a back ride but I was thrilled that it ran as good as it did.

[Hubert]

Well the intermittent no start and stall are usually fsd/pmd. But sounds like you may have multiple problems. Sounds like it was not bad the time you tried to crank it. Bad thing is the fsd/pmd will long crank and finally start sometimes other times it won't you have to have one of those times it does not start to check wether its injecting fuel or not.
I know what you mean about faith in a truck either you have it or you don't. Might get a back up fsd lots of people carry them in the glovebox after experiencing the stall and no start fsd problem.

Are you sure it cleared codes by checking them before crank up?

[Robyn]

The 36 is an injection pulse width error. and the 99 is throttle positon sensor 5 volt error.
This beast needs to be scanned to see what the pulse width is doing. If its over 2.5 Miliseconds it will set the code. The 99 code points a finger at the TPS (pedal assy)
Get on top of these two codes and then worry about the starting issue. Once these two codes are gone things may be just fine.

Robyn

[tedtobler]

Droped the TRuck off at the dealership. They did not finish it as of today but found some interesting things.

1. The fuel purge valve is creating negative presure.
2. the fuel lift pump is not working (it is new but not getting power)
3. The mechanic believes it is not the IP.

I will have more for you tomorrow.

[tedtobler]

Bad news for me. The mechanic said is a bad injection pump, which sounds like a $2000 job. $1200 to 1300 for the pump plus labor plus tax. Suddenly this great truck goes belly up. Interesting how this went bad just after dumping a ton of cash into everything else.

[Bnave95]

http://www.kennedydiesel.com/detail.cfm?ID=25

This can be R&R yourself.http://www.bd-power.com/gmc/product.php?pn=Fuel%20Pumps&tt=gmc

[tedtobler]

Since the injector pump needs to be replaced, I discussed options with the Mechanic. His advice is to junk or sell the truck. According to him, chevy requires you to replace the fuel tank if you are replacing the Injector pump. What happens is that metal gets inside your tank from the fuel return. That metal does not get filtered out of the fuel when it goes through the filter and ultamitly it damages the new injector pump.

has anyone every heard of this?

Having said this, anyone have any directions on how to replace an injector pump (or advice, like dont do it).

[DmaxMaverick]

Although I'm not convinced the IP needs replacing, and the statement by a tech suggesting you "junk" your truck, I'd question the abilities of your tech. The problem is more likely in the LP power circuit. Low fuel pressure can and does cause DTC's that seem totally unrelated. Grounds and electrical connections are the #1 greamlin.

The fuel tank....
GM DOES NOT recommend replacing the tank. The procedure does recommend the tank be removed and thoroughly cleaned. This indicates GM's confidence (or lack thereof) in the OEM fuel filter. Problem is, most (not all) dealers make you pay for the tank cleaning, even though it was the warranty covered failed pump that caused the contamination in the first place. The risk of the contamination is more of the lift pump, and not so much the IP. The OEM fuel filter does do a pretty good job of cleaning up the fuel, but the LP gets unfiltered fuel straight from the tank. Your truck is out of warranty, so you'll get the full bill.

None of this is an issue with an electronic failure of an IP. If your IP is toast, it may not have failed mechanically. If you find metal, or evidence of metal in your fuel filter, it is a pretty solid indicator of either the LP or IP failure.

[tommac95]

>>It does not matter if the truck ran for an hour or 30 seconds.
Generally glo plugs necessary for cold starts, but not hot. Hot starting problem probably InjectionPump, FSD, or OPS/LP related. Cold starting problem may be influenced by defective engine coolant temperature sensor NOT getting the message to activate the glow plugs.

I agree with most above-posted advice. However, when an engine has over 150K miles you have a keen interest in assaying the condition of the cylinders, valves , and head gaskets. A compression test under controlled conditions ,by an experienced tech with a familiar gauge , may be instructive.

[tedtobler]

The truck has been running well for about a week. I believe it is running pretty rich. It starts hard, but starts ( I think it will be a bitch this Ohio winter). The second and on going starts are great (I do need to depress the pedal). I am going to test my fuel for the metal flakes.

My question at this point is if I wanted to check the "tank filter" how would I do it or not do it if it is too hard?